GDT: UFC 217: Bisping vs. St-Pierre

[darko]

First, I'll just get it out of the way - he's black. It's always been harder to become a star in MMA when you aren't white

Disagree completely. His skin colour has nothing to do with it. Mighty Mouse is reasonably well liked and he's black.

I don't like DC because he has this smug look on his face most of the time.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

People love Jones despite the horrible things he has done and he's as black as midnight. That argument has no weight.

I think plenty of people like DC; just not casual fans and mainly because of the rivalry with Jones. He's also a wrestler. Noone likes wrestlers unless you're GSP. Silly Canadians.

 

[1specter]

The dislike for Cormier has always been strange to me. I don't think it's one major reason, more a bunch of little reasons.

First, I'll just get it out of the way - he's black. It's always been harder to become a star in MMA when you aren't white.

Second, his body. Doesn't look like the high-level guys usually look.

Third, in his two biggest fights he got run over by Jon Jones. Lots of people have only seen Cormier fight a handful of times and two of them he got beat up by Jon Jones.

Fourth, as has been already mentioned doesn't have the typical MMA personality. He's not a cocky, trash-talking type.

Lastly, he's been matched up versus many popular fighters during his time in the UFC. Dan Henderson, Nelson, Anderson Silva, Anthony Johnson, Gus, Jon Jones. All of these guys are name guys that the fans are going to be cheering for regardless of who they were fighting. Even when he fought Patrick Cummins, people were cheering for Cummins because he had a cool back-story and took the fight on short notice.

MMA fans don't deserve DC. Guy is a class act and has been through some seriously messed up stuff in his life. Hell, even told people to lay off of Jon Jones even with the recent steroid bust. I love DC and it's a shame that the guy who's probably the second best LHW ever (or first if you discount Jones for his drug use) will go mostly unappreciated.

 

[m9]

Disagree completely. His skin colour has nothing to do with it. Mighty Mouse is reasonably well liked and he's black.

I don't like DC because he has this smug look on his face most of the time.

People love Jones despite the horrible things he has done and he's as black as midnight. That argument has no weight.

I think plenty of people like DC; just not casual fans and mainly because of the rivalry with Jones. He's also a wrestler. Noone likes wrestlers unless you're GSP. Silly Canadians.

I won't dig too deep into the race thing, because people are too sensitive about the topic and it's not a fight worth chasing. I disagree with much of what is posted here, but I will just say that generally it has been harder for black MMA fighters to become popular.

MMA fans don't deserve DC. Guy is a class act and has been through some seriously messed up stuff in his life. Hell, even told people to lay off of Jon Jones even with the recent steroid bust. I love DC and it's a shame that the guy who's probably the second best LHW ever (or first if you discount Jones for his drug use) will go mostly unappreciated.

Agreed.

 

[1specter]

GSP's BJJ coach put up a post on instagram yesterday and had this to say, pretty interesting



Think it's best for GSP to leave middleweight at this point

 

[BGDDYKWL]

Boy I was off on this one. That was one exciting card. Amazing that Bisping can take multiple H-bombs but a guy who couldn't finish at 170 was able to badly hurt and ultimately finish him. Comical to me how they hype these girls. Ronda was a once ever fighter and JJ was the best striker in all of the UFC, then gets knocked out by a fighter who had never finished an opponent with strikes. I think TJ would've been in trouble if he wasn't saved by the bell in the first, but either way, impressive performance, especially after what Cody did to Cruz. Hendricks needs to retire.

 

[kurt]

Disagree completely. His skin colour has nothing to do with it. Mighty Mouse is reasonably well liked and he's black.

I don't like DC because he has this smug look on his face most of the time.

People love Jones despite the horrible things he has done and he's as black as midnight. That argument has no weight.

I think plenty of people like DC; just not casual fans and mainly because of the rivalry with Jones. He's also a wrestler. Noone likes wrestlers unless you're GSP. Silly Canadians.

Race very certainly plays a role in overall public perception, and acceptance/celebration/etc. Don't kid yourself. Mighty Mouse has faced all sorts of issues. Some issues are perhaps due to his size, sure, but race is a factor. As for the "no one likes wrestlers" - people loved Matt Hughes, Chael Sonnen, Brock Lesnar, Urijah Faber and many other white wrestlers.

I won't dig too deep into the race thing, because people are too sensitive about the topic and it's not a fight worth chasing. I disagree with much of what is posted here, but I will just say that generally it has been harder for black MMA fighters to become popular.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

Chael Sonnen is an amazing trash talker and Brock Lesnar is a WWE super star.

I don't deny the impact of race but to say DC is not popular because he is black is silly, especially because he historically received boos and trash talk from the fans because they were supporting, dare I say, an even blacker athlete ...

 

[kurt]

Chael Sonnen is an amazing trash talker and Brock Lesnar is a WWE super star.

I don't deny the impact of race but to say DC is not popular because he is black is silly, especially because he historically received boos and trash talk from the fans because they were supporting, dare I say, an even blacker athlete ...

Not singularly a race issue, sure. But dismissing race as an issue is ignorant.

 

[Neutrinos]

"Thug Rose!" 9 times


I'm embarrassed for both Cormier and the UFC

 

[m9]

Not singularly a race issue, sure. But dismissing race as an issue is ignorant.

Exactly.

 

[SuperScript29]

First, I'll just get it out of the way - he's black. It's always been harder to become a star in MMA when you aren't white.

That's like saying it's harder to be a popular basketball player or a boxer if you're white

Come on man, let's not make an argument out of something that does not exist. I'm not denying the existence of racism, but being non-white or white has nothing to do with one's popularity in MMA. It's all based on how good the fighter is, fighting style, and personality.

Race very certainly plays a role in overall public perception, and acceptance/celebration/etc. Don't kid yourself. Mighty Mouse has faced all sorts of issues. Some issues are perhaps due to his size, sure, but race is a factor. As for the "no one likes wrestlers" - people loved Matt Hughes, Chael Sonnen, Brock Lesnar, Urijah Faber and many other white wrestlers.

Mighty Mouse's issue is mostly the lack of interest in that weight class, but what hurts him even more is the lack of big names he's facing. The last guy he fought that I was actually familiar with was Dodson, and this was 4 fights ago. This is why it was a shame that the fight with Dillishaw didn't happen, I think it would have put him on the map had he won it.

All the other guys you posted either fought well known competition and have done well, or they're huge personalities.

 

[kurt]

That's like saying it's harder to be a popular basketball player or a boxer if you're white

Come on man, let's not make an argument out of something that does not exist. I'm not denying the existence of racism, but being non-white or white has nothing to do with one's popularity in MMA. It's all based on how good the fighter is, fighting style, and personality.

Mighty Mouse's issue is mostly the lack of interest in that weight class, but what hurts him even more is the lack of big names he's facing. The last guy he fought that I was actually familiar with was Dodson, and this was 4 fights ago. This is why it was a shame that the fight with Dillishaw didn't happen, I think it would have put him on the map had he won it.

All the other guys you posted either fought well known competition and have done well, or they're huge personalities.

You joined today to post this? "Does not exist" - get real. It certainly plays a factor. It amazes me how few people have even the faintest awareness of white privilege.

 

[SuperScript29]

You joined today to post this? "Does not exist" - get real. It certainly plays a factor. It amazes me how few people have even the faintest awareness of white privilege.

I joined this site back in 2002, but for some reason after the new update I can no longer use my old account nor retrieve my password (Old user is Birko19). Attempted a few times but got frustrated and made a new account.

As I said, I'm not denying the existence of racism, but it's absurd how we continue to force this race crap into things when there's little to no evidence to support it. Some of the greatest most famous athletes in MMA and other sports are black. The most popular middle weight of all time is Anderson Silva, the most popular light heavyweight of all time is Jon Jones, both of these guys are in the GOAT discussions with Jones potentially being the best of all time. Stepping away from MMA, you have Ali as the best boxer of all time with Tyson being the most famous. Outside of combat sports, Jordan is the best basketball player of all time followed by plenty of other black athletes in the top, should I keep going? Probably not, but it would be nice that if we're going to make claims, that we do it with proper evidence.

 

[kurt]

I joined this site back in 2002, but for some reason after the new update I can no longer use my old account nor retrieve my password (Old user is Birko19). Attempted a few times but got frustrated and made a new account.

As I said, I'm not denying the existence of racism, but it's absurd how we continue to force this race crap into things when there's little to no evidence to support it. Some of the greatest most famous athletes in MMA and other sports are black. The most popular middle weight of all time is Anderson Silva, the most popular light heavyweight of all time is Jon Jones, both of these guys are in the GOAT discussions with Jones potentially being the best of all time. Stepping away from MMA, you have Ali as the best boxer of all time with Tyson being the most famous. Outside of combat sports, Jordan is the best basketball player of all time followed by plenty of other black athletes in the top, should I keep going? Probably not, but it would be nice that if we're going to make claims, that we do it with proper evidence.

There's an ocean of evidence.

 

[SuperScript29]

There's an ocean of evidence.

Care to share actual evidence? Your Mighty Mouse example is a pretty bad one when the likes of Silva or Jones enter the picture. Not everything is about race, and people who bring up this kind of stuff are just as bad as the racists themselves because they are causing a problem that was not there to begin with.

To this date, I have not seen a fighter being discriminated against because they were non-white in the UFC, nor have I seen an arena cheer against a fighter due to his/her skin color. So until that happens, let's not pollute the sport and create a problem that is not there.

 

[kurt]

Care to share actual evidence? Your Mighty Mouse example is a pretty bad one when the likes of Silva or Jones enter the picture. Not everything is about race, and people who bring up this kind of stuff are just as bad as the racists themselves because they are causing a problem that was not there to begin with.

To this date, I have not seen a fighter being discriminated against because they were non-white in the UFC, nor have I seen an arena cheer against a fighter due to his/her skin color. So until that happens, let's not pollute the sport and create a problem that is not there.

Just because people overcome challenges and break through, that doesn't mean there weren't challenges they needed to break through. It's nowhere close to that simple.

If you somehow aren't aware of any issues I'm referring to, maybe start out by doing some googling about how black athletes are treated in places like Boston.

"people who bring up this kind of stuff are just as bad as the racists themselves" - not just an absurd comment, but the suggested equivalency is also a clear indication that you have absolutely no understanding of or appreciation for the challenges others face. Get a clue.

 

[SuperScript29]

Just because people overcome challenges and break through, that doesn't mean there weren't challenges they needed to break through. It's nowhere close to that simple.

If you somehow aren't aware of any issues I'm referring to, maybe start out by doing some googling about how black athletes are treated in places like Boston.

Just because some athletes had to deal with more challenges on their way up, don't assume that this is the case with every single non-white athlete in the UFC today.

"people who bring up this kind of stuff are just as bad as the racists themselves" - not just an absurd comment, but the suggested equivalency is also a clear indication that you have absolutely no understanding of or appreciation for the challenges others face. Get a clue.

I very well appreciate the challenges that some people go through, and I applaud them when they come out from tough environments and make something out of themselves. But unlike some, I don't look at the person's race to appreciate the obstacles they had to go through, because to me race is an irreverent topic that serves no purpose. I don't appreciate people because they have a certain ethnic background or a skin color, I appreciate them for their actions. The more we adopt this mentality, the sooner we can resolve these racial problems that we have. Rather than labeling people in sports by their skin color, just call them athletes and move on, no need to bring the race issue into it. By doing that, you're actually building more on top of the problem, not eliminating.

For the record, I say this as an immigrant and a minority who has faced actual discrimination in the past. I think I have some clue about this subject, I just choose to focus on the positive and not waste my time on the racist minority.

I said my piece on this, time to move back on the topic.

 

[m9]

Care to share actual evidence? Your Mighty Mouse example is a pretty bad one when the likes of Silva or Jones enter the picture. Not everything is about race, and people who bring up this kind of stuff are just as bad as the racists themselves because they are causing a problem that was not there to begin with.

To this date, I have not seen a fighter being discriminated against because they were non-white in the UFC, nor have I seen an arena cheer against a fighter due to his/her skin color. So until that happens, let's not pollute the sport and create a problem that is not there.

I have seen plenty of arenas cheer against a fighter due to their skin color, right back to the first UFC I watched live which was Chuck v Rampage. Most racist sporting event I have ever attended.

That said, I actually agree that lots of the "systemic racism" that is talked about in the media is made-up. Many of the numbers in regards to police incidents and other high-profile news headlines are not using the statistics properly. But you are doing the same thing in pointing to only a few black MMA fighters that have been popular - you are pointing out a few transcendent talents in the sport and acting like it's the rule.

Here are the top 20 UFC buyrates of all-time in order, ending with the most recent one since it cracked the list. *I added on Cormier v Jones for transparency as it's relevant to the discussion:

Conor v Diaz 2
Conor v Diaz 1
UFC 100 (Brock v Mir, GSP v Alves)
Alvarez v Conor
Aldo v Conor
Lesnar v Carwin
Rousey v Holm
Nunes v Rousey
Liddell v Ortiz 2
UFC 92 (Rashad v Griffin, Mir v Nog)
Lesnar v Cain
Rampage v Rashad
Weidman v Silva 2
Couture v Lesnar
UFC 200
GSP v Nick Diaz
Silva v Sonnen 2
GSP v Penn 2
Rousey v Bethe
Bisping v GSP
Cormier v Jones 2

It's obvious that white fighters sell more. The most popular fighters are probably Conor, Rousey, Lesnar, and GSP.

Then compare it to guys like Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Woodley, DJ, etc. They are doing between 100k and 400k on the regular, and these are 4 of the best fighters around. Jon Jones v Daniel Cormier 2 is probably the best P4P MMA fight you will ever see and it couldn't even crack the top 20 buyrate.

So yes, it's harder for black athlete to become popular. Woodley, DJ, and Cormier are three of the best fighters of this generation... and you could put all three on a PPV card fighting the #1 contender in and the UFC would be luck to get 500,000 buys.

 

[m9]

Just because some athletes had to deal with more challenges on their way up, don't assume that this is the case with every single non-white athlete in the UFC today.



I very well appreciate the challenges that some people go through, and I applaud them when they come out from tough environments and make something out of themselves. But unlike some, I don't look at the person's race to appreciate the obstacles they had to go through, because to me race is an irreverent topic that serves no purpose. I don't appreciate people because they have a certain ethnic background or a skin color, I appreciate them for their actions. The more we adopt this mentality, the sooner we can resolve these racial problems that we have. Rather than labeling people in sports by their skin color, just call them athletes and move on, no need to bring the race issue into it. By doing that, you're actually building more on top of the problem, not eliminating.

For the record, I say this as an immigrant and a minority who has faced actual discrimination in the past. I think I have some clue about this subject, I just choose to focus on the positive and not waste my time on the racist minority.

I said my piece on this, time to move back on the topic.

I 100% agree with you on this and this is one of the best posts I've read on the forum. I wish more people had the same beliefs.

The problem is.. they don't. I think race is the most overstated "issue" in culture today.

In some situations however, statistics don't lie.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

I have seen plenty of arenas cheer against a fighter due to their skin color, right back to the first UFC I watched live which was Chuck v Rampage. Most racist sporting event I have ever attended.

That said, I actually agree that lots of the "systemic racism" that is talked about in the media is made-up. Many of the numbers in regards to police incidents and other high-profile news headlines are not using the statistics properly. But you are doing the same thing in pointing to only a few black MMA fighters that have been popular - you are pointing out a few transcendent talents in the sport and acting like it's the rule.

Here are the top 20 UFC buyrates of all-time in order, ending with the most recent one since it cracked the list. *I added on Cormier v Jones for transparency as it's relevant to the discussion:

Conor v Diaz 2
Conor v Diaz 1
UFC 100 (Brock v Mir, GSP v Alves)
Alvarez v Conor
Aldo v Conor
Lesnar v Carwin
Rousey v Holm
Nunes v Rousey
Liddell v Ortiz 2
UFC 92 (Rashad v Griffin, Mir v Nog)
Lesnar v Cain
Rampage v Rashad
Weidman v Silva 2
Couture v Lesnar
UFC 200
GSP v Nick Diaz
Silva v Sonnen 2
GSP v Penn 2
Rousey v Bethe
Bisping v GSP
Cormier v Jones 2

It's obvious that white fighters sell more. The most popular fighters are probably Conor, Rousey, Lesnar, and GSP.

Then compare it to guys like Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Woodley, DJ, etc. They are doing between 100k and 400k on the regular, and these are 4 of the best fighters around. Jon Jones v Daniel Cormier 2 is probably the best P4P MMA fight you will ever see and it couldn't even crack the top 20 buyrate.

So yes, it's harder for black athlete to become popular. Woodley, DJ, and Cormier are three of the best fighters of this generation... and you could put all three on a PPV card fighting the #1 contender in and the UFC would be luck to get 500,000 buys.

I can also compile a list of top most paid athletes in the NBA and majority will be black. Context matters.

When it comes to PPV sales, it's not even about talent, it's about a fighter's personality. The first 8 cards on your list feature headliners who are characters. People buy Floyd's PPVs not because they like to see him dance around his opponents but because of his personality.

 

[SuperScript29]

I have seen plenty of arenas cheer against a fighter due to their skin color, right back to the first UFC I watched live which was Chuck v Rampage. Most racist sporting event I have ever attended.

That said, I actually agree that lots of the "systemic racism" that is talked about in the media is made-up. Many of the numbers in regards to police incidents and other high-profile news headlines are not using the statistics properly. But you are doing the same thing in pointing to only a few black MMA fighters that have been popular - you are pointing out a few transcendent talents in the sport and acting like it's the rule.

Here are the top 20 UFC buyrates of all-time in order, ending with the most recent one since it cracked the list. *I added on Cormier v Jones for transparency as it's relevant to the discussion:

Conor v Diaz 2
Conor v Diaz 1
UFC 100 (Brock v Mir, GSP v Alves)
Alvarez v Conor
Aldo v Conor
Lesnar v Carwin
Rousey v Holm
Nunes v Rousey
Liddell v Ortiz 2
UFC 92 (Rashad v Griffin, Mir v Nog)
Lesnar v Cain
Rampage v Rashad
Weidman v Silva 2
Couture v Lesnar
UFC 200
GSP v Nick Diaz
Silva v Sonnen 2
GSP v Penn 2
Rousey v Bethe
Bisping v GSP
Cormier v Jones 2

It's obvious that white fighters sell more. The most popular fighters are probably Conor, Rousey, Lesnar, and GSP.

Then compare it to guys like Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Woodley, DJ, etc. They are doing between 100k and 400k on the regular, and these are 4 of the best fighters around. Jon Jones v Daniel Cormier 2 is probably the best P4P MMA fight you will ever see and it couldn't even crack the top 20 buyrate.

So yes, it's harder for black athlete to become popular. Woodley, DJ, and Cormier are three of the best fighters of this generation... and you could put all three on a PPV card fighting the #1 contender in and the UFC would be luck to get 500,000 buys.

I'm not gonna go back and debate the race issue, but I think a huge problem here is that you're overlooking the star power some of these athletes bring regardless of background. Connor and GSP have two entire countries behind them, Brock is a WWE superstar and a freak of nature, and Ronda is the first significant dominant female UFC champ. These are more factors to their success and sale figures than their background.

Speaking of the highest paperview sales in combat sports, this list proves that star power goes beyond race:

The 50 best-selling pay-per-view fight nights in history

 

[kurt]

I can also compile a list of top most paid athletes in the NBA and majority will be black. Context matters.

When it comes to PPV sales, it's not even about talent, it's about a fighter's personality. The first 8 cards on your list feature headliners who are characters. People buy Floyd's PPVs not because they like to see him dance around his opponents but because of his personality.

I'm not gonna go back and debate the race issue, but I think a huge problem here is that you're overlooking the star power some of these athletes bring regardless of background. Connor and GSP have two entire countries behind them, Brock is a WWE superstar and a freak of nature, and Ronda is the first significant dominant female UFC champ. These are more factors to their success and sale figures than their background.

Speaking of the highest paperview sales in combat sports, this list proves that star power goes beyond race:

The 50 best-selling pay-per-view fight nights in history

Context certainly matters. Black athletes dominate the NBA, and basketball has become a cornerstone of black culture. Black players can much more easily become superstars in basketball as a result. While on the topic of basketball - there are boatloads of (white) people out there who prefer NCAA basketball to the NBA, using all sorts of code words for justifying their reasoning. I'm not saying all who prefer the NCAA are racist (after all, some people do prefer junior hockey to the NHL), but there are definitely those out there. Football culture is an entirely different story - black athletes and coaches have faced all sorts of garbage in that sport. And if we're going to talk about all-time PPVs, boxing, and Floyd, the majority of his earnings are banked off people wanting to see him lose, and him expertly taking advantage of that.

While you're looking up "Top 50's", maybe do some searches of places like Forbes to find the world's richest people, top CEOs, etc.

For whatever motive you choose to believe race isn't an issue, whether it's because you're oblivious to the issue, or whether you believe that "if more people thought that way, the issue would be gone", doesn't matter. Believe whatever. The fact remains that it is very much an issue.

 

[kurt]

Just because some athletes had to deal with more challenges on their way up, don't assume that this is the case with every single non-white athlete in the UFC today.

I don't assume that. People all come from different places and start out with different opportunities in front of them. Many white people face horrific challenges in their lives. That said, generally speaking, white men generally have things a lot easier than other groups do. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

I very well appreciate the challenges that some people go through, and I applaud them when they come out from tough environments and make something out of themselves. But unlike some, I don't look at the person's race to appreciate the obstacles they had to go through, because to me race is an irreverent topic that serves no purpose. I don't appreciate people because they have a certain ethnic background or a skin color, I appreciate them for their actions. The more we adopt this mentality, the sooner we can resolve these racial problems that we have. Rather than labeling people in sports by their skin color, just call them athletes and move on, no need to bring the race issue into it. By doing that, you're actually building more on top of the problem, not eliminating.

Not looking at a person's race to appreciate the obstacles one has to go through may feel like a helpful & progressive mindset, but without appreciating those issues and trying to collaboratively overcome them and bring people to a level playing field, choosing not to look at them isn't going to contribute to solving them. Especially when not everyone else shares your perspective. You're just ignoring a problem.

For the record, I say this as an immigrant and a minority who has faced actual discrimination in the past. I think I have some clue about this subject, I just choose to focus on the positive and not waste my time on the racist minority.

I said my piece on this, time to move back on the topic.

Black athletes have gone on record in this sport stating it's an issue. I believe them. Not believing them would be like me saying to you that I don't believe your claim that you've faced discrimination in the past. It would be insensitive and utterly obtuse for me to do so.

 

[Kitten Mittons]

We're talking about two different things and mixing them into one:

1. Experiences of black athletes trying to make it to the top and staying there.
2. Popularity of black athletes (or entertainers) suffering due to their skin color.

The first issue is obvious but I disagree with the latter. You have scumbags like Chris Brown still beloved. Jon Jones, Floyd, and others. Once you get all the way to the top, your race is not a factor (it can be for some racists but we're not talking in absolutes here). It's a combination of talent and charisma. Cormier and Woodley got only one of those. One is a dorky goofball with no KO power and the other has a personality of a potato. A very well spoken potato.

There's just not enough top level black athletes in MMA and therefore examples for this discussion, potentially due to point #1 or cultural reasons.

We can maybe divert it to boxing since it's a much popular sport among African-Americans and provides a larger sample size to use for examples.