TSN Insiders Jan. 31

[vanlady]

It took MLB 10 years to FULLY recover. They didn't spend nine years at their initial post-lockout level.

I'm not disputing that the revenue will go down, in the short term. In the long run, though, there is far more revenue available to players in the NHL than there is in Europe.

Hey, if anyone thinks they'll make more money in Europe, they can go ahead. I'll bet their agent advises against it, though.

In the long run yes, but how long is that? Player careers are incredibly short. Don't forget the other expences that players wouldn't have if they played in europe as well. Euro's no longer have to pay the stipend to there countries leagues, no having to pay for 2 homes,cars etc. If the cap drops to 21-30 million you won't see players back in the short term IMO.

 

[CarlRacki]

Do the math, in order for the high end players to make there money, the Sedins and guys like Chubarov will be thrown under the bus by GM's to keep there stars. If these guys suddenly find themselves making the league minimum, they will make more in europe. So the question is why not stay our forever?

Actually, you're wrong. In the NFL, for example, typically less than 10-15 percent of a roster makes the league minimum. About 2/3 makes twice the league minimum or more. In hockey, that 10 percent would mean about 2-3 players per roster.
I'm curious, but how much do you think hockey players earn in Europe?
I think if you did some research on the subject, you'd be very surprised at the results.
With very few exceptions, even the big names over there now aren't making a ton. Nash and Thornton are each getting about $200,000. Most NHLers are earning less than $150,000. Tax free or not, it pales in comparison to what they'll get in the NHL.

 

[Cully9]

In the long run yes, but how long is that? Player careers are incredibly short. Don't forget the other expences that players wouldn't have if they played in europe as well. Euro's no longer have to pay the stipend to there countries leagues, no having to pay for 2 homes,cars etc. If the cap drops to 21-30 million you won't see players back in the short term IMO.

Are the Sedins and Chubarov planning on retiring at 27?

IMO, It would be a monumental error to throw away the potential of an NHL contract just to save the cost of renting a house for eight months.

 

[vanlady]

Actually, you're wrong. In the NFL, for example, typically less than 10-15 percent make the league minimum. In hockey, that would mean about 2-3 players.
I'm curious, but how much do you think hockey players earn in Europe?
I think if you did some research on the subject, you'd be very surprised at the results.
With very few exceptions, even the big names over there now aren't making a ton. Nash and Thornton are each getting about $200,000. Most NHLers are earning less than $150,000. Tax free or not, it pales in comparison to what they'll get in the NHL.

But hockey does not have a huge network TV deal either.

Yes the average hockey player in europe makes 150,000 in Russia, Slovakia and Czech Republic that money is tax free, and the player pays no stipend.

Now look at a salary and expences in the NHL. Salary 250,000. Pay taxes, agent, stipend, added living expences. So by the time you take all these things off, there paycheque will be about the same or less than playing in europe. So is it worth toiling in the NHL with the promise you might get a raise, or stay at home close to your family?

 

[Cully9]

But hockey does not have a huge network TV deal either.

Yes the average hockey player in europe makes 150,000 in Russia, Slovakia and Czech Republic that money is tax free, and the player pays no stipend.

Now look at a salary and expences in the NHL. Salary 250,000. Pay taxes, agent, stipend, added living expences. So by the time you take all these things off, there paycheque will be about the same or less than playing in europe. So is it worth toiling in the NHL with the promise you might get a raise, or stay at home close to your family?

Agents don't get a fee on European contracts?

 

[vanlady]

Are the Sedins and Chubarov planning on retiring at 27?

IMO, It would be a monumental error to throw away the potential of an NHL contract just to save the cost of renting a house for eight months.

Do you think that the NHL is going to recover in 2-3 years? You have no idea what the costs involved in playing high level hockey do you?

 

[vanlady]

Agents don't get a fee on European contracts?

Agents are a small expence compared to taxes and stipends. Or in Vancouvers case, buying a house. By the way, were you aware that the Sedins would have to spend there entire years pay to afford a condo in Vancouver?

 

[Cully9]

Do you think that the NHL is going to recover in 2-3 years? You have no idea what the costs involved in playing high level hockey do you?

It won't FULLY recover in 2-3 years, but it will be making progress. How will the costs involved in high level hockey prevent the league from building revenues? Am I to understand, then, that the league will only remain at its post-lockout level for the entirety of the careers of Messrs. Sedin and Chubarov?

Tell me then, what will the league minimum salary be and what percentage of players will be stuck at that level?

 

[Cully9]

Agents are a small expence compared to taxes and stipends. Or in Vancouvers case, buying a house. By the way, were you aware that the Sedins would have to spend there entire years pay to afford a condo in Vancouver?

You're the one who mentioned the agents fee in the NHL, but not in Europe.

Wow! A whole year's pay to buy a condo? Am I supposed to be shedding tears for that, all the while wondering why they don't rent?

 

[vanlady]

You're the one who mentioned the agents fee in the NHL, but not in Europe.

Wow! A whole year's pay to buy a condo? Am I supposed to be shedding tears for that, all the while wondering why they don't rent?

Rent cannot be used as a business expense. Just like any other businessman they would know this.

They would still pay an agent, but not taxes and stipends.

 

[nomorekids]

It should be noted the types of governmental systems in countries like Sweden and Finland...welfare states--that is...the taxes the Sedins\whomever else would pay over there would decrease their salaries in a greater way than you could imagine..and that's under the erroneous assumption that they could make 500-600,000 a year(most of those teams can't afford those types of contracts, certainly no more than 1 player per team in that range. if there was a great influx of NHL talent who were "fed up" with JUST making 750,000-1 million, the salary scale on the whole would have to decrease in europe).

 

[Cully9]

Rent cannot be used as a business expense. Just like any other businessman they would know this.

They would still pay an agent, but not taxes and stipends.

Just for clarification then, the taxes, stipends and cost of renting an apartment would be too great for the Sedins to return to the NHL? It's a wonder they lured them over in the first place.

 

[vanlady]

It won't FULLY recover in 2-3 years, but it will be making progress. How will the costs involved in high level hockey prevent the league from building revenues? Am I to understand, then, that the league will only remain at its post-lockout level for the entirety of the careers of Messrs. Sedin and Chubarov?

Tell me then, what will the league minimum salary be and what percentage of players will be stuck at that level?

The league minimum is 250,000. On top of what I have already brought up as expences add personal trainer, nutrishonist and equipment expences not covered by the teams. There are also expences that I have forgotten about.

If the league revenues drop to the level that brings the cap to 21 million, IMO you are looking at 50-60% of the league making at or just above league minimum.

One question, who do you think will be the first ones to get the raises as the revenues start to climb, the young 3rd and 4th liners or the top players?

 

[vanlady]

Just for clarification then, the taxes, stipends and cost of renting an apartment would be too great for the Sedins to return to the NHL? It's a wonder they lured them over in the first place.

There current 1.3 million dollar paychecks, not a 250,000 paycheck. And the goal of making 3-4 milion a year within 5-6 years.

 

[vanlady]

It should be noted the types of governmental systems in countries like Sweden and Finland...welfare states--that is...the taxes the Sedins\whomever else would pay over there would decrease their salaries in a greater way than you could imagine..and that's under the erroneous assumption that they could make 500-600,000 a year(most of those teams can't afford those types of contracts, certainly no more than 1 player per team in that range. if there was a great influx of NHL talent who were "fed up" with JUST making 750,000-1 million, the salary scale on the whole would have to decrease in europe).

They pay those taxes whether they play here or there anyway. The taxes in Sweden are far lower than here in Canada. Tax rates in Sweden are 28-34%. Here in Canada they range up to 51%. Swedens tax rates are actually some of the lowest in Sweden, there business tax rate is the lowest in europe.

 

[Cully9]

The league minimum is 250,000. On top of what I have already brought up as expences add personal trainer, nutrishonist and equipment expences not covered by the teams. There are also expences that I have forgotten about.

If the league revenues drop to the level that brings the cap to 21 million, IMO you are looking at 50-60% of the league making at or just above league minimum.

One question, who do you think will be the first ones to get the raises as the revenues start to climb, the young 3rd and 4th liners or the top players?

The Sedins need personal trainers and nutritionists? Why is that? The team doesn't provide anywhere for them to work out? Forces them to eat at McDonalds? This garbage about every NHLer having personal trainers and nutritionists is a load of bunk. None of NHLers that I know (whether from playing against growing up or in summer hockey etc.) has a personal trainer or a nutritionist, let alone both. That doesn't mean that some don't, but let's not make it out to be standard operating procedure for all NHLers.

As for equipment. There is no way the Sedins are paying for equipment. Exactly what equipment do you think they pay for?

Of course the top guys will get raises first. Like I said, if the Sedins are top six forwards on the Canucks, won't that put them in that group and not the third and fourth liners (who, incidentally, won't earn more money in Europe anyway)?

 

[Cully9]

There current 1.3 million dollar paychecks, not a 250,000 paycheck. And the goal of making 3-4 milion a year within 5-6 years.

Yes, why play for the chance at a $3-4 million pay cheque down the road when you can keep earning that $150,000 year after year? Geez, this is the kind of logic that has NHLers in Europe now, thinking they are better off making 1/10 (or less) of what they'd make in the NHL.

 

[wazee]

Agents are a small expence compared to taxes and stipends. Or in Vancouvers case, buying a house. By the way, were you aware that the Sedins would have to spend there entire years pay to afford a condo in Vancouver?

Hmmmm...the Sedins make around 1M a year, right? So...are you saying they could not manage to find a place to live for less than that? Wow! How do Vancouver's other 2.1M (give or take a few, according to the dozens of posts on that subject yesterday) citizens manage to find shelter. Do they all make more that 1M a year?

Maybe the Sedins could consider taking out a loan if they want to buy a 1M condo...sort of like most everyone else does. That way, they don't have to pay the whole million in one year so they will still be able to afford food and clothing and even an occasional night out on the town.

 

[PecaFan]

Steve Brun of the Globe and Mail pointed out that all the numbers being thrown around about a 1.3 million average salary are bogus. After the MLB, NFL and NBA labor troubles, revenues dropped dramatically, it also took years to get that money back.

Oh look, the Chicken Little Brigade is in full force.

Hockey is not baseball. Astounding I know, but if you really stop and think about it for a loooong time, you'll see that it's true.

The fan bases are totally different, the revenue structures completely different.

The revenue from hockey is based almost entirely on the gate from the game, and local television. Their is no indication that there's going to be a *massive* drop like is being tossed around here. You're predicting revenues dropping to something around 40% of their old levels.

The only evidence of what might happen in hockey is the 1994 lockout. And attendance *rose* after the lockout, compared to pre-lockout.

I'm not saying it will rise again, and it may dip a little, but there's no way in hell these doomsday predictions come true.

 

[quat]

Never said they should make the same money, however it sure blows holes in the idea that the little guys and the middle of the road players will vote for a cap. Let's face it, guys like the Sedin twins and Chubarov are making the same money in europe now, so why vote for a cap where they will have double the expences on the same money?

PS the owners should have thought about the drop in revenues before they locked out the players, sorry no sympathy for them.

So how do you negotiate a CBA that is better for the owners? Welllll. According to you and Tom, you simply don't. Honestly, you guys make no sense what so ever.

The Owners should have negotiated sooner. The Owners aren't being fare. The Owners won't negotiate. The Owners are rich. The Owners are criminals. The Owners can't be trusted. The PA has no interest in the books. The Owners won't let us look at the books. The League is extremely healthy. The League is so weak it's going to lose franchises.

Nothing but an even more favourable deal for the players, or at the very minimum, the status quo would please you. Personally, I am extremely tired of posters talking about the players being greedy or what have you... but the kind of fluff that you both post is based almost entirely on you unswerving support of a group of people who simply refuse to budge from the system that has almost ruined, and surely will ruin, if it's not changed, the NHL.

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

That is what doesn't make sense. He has lost a lot, it will hurt him less. Don't imply I am unintelligent.

He's acting against his own interests to protect the paycheques of players who come after him. He makes $10 million a year today because the veteran leaders in 1994 acted against their own interest to protect him. It's his turn. He - and the other veterans will sign a deal that is fair to Sidney Crosby, Ilya Kovalchuk, Brad Richards, Martin Havlat and Matt Cooke.

That they should take anything at all is a given, but they are not taking it. These guys - Pronger, Roenick, Guerin, Linden, Alfredsson, Hasek, Yzerman, Sundin et al - have made their pile. They can't be touched financially. They are the ones who have to cave for the owners to get their way. Chris Pronger doesn't think this kind of deal is fair to Sidney Crosby. Linden thinks the same. Trent Klatt. Sean Burke. These guys are all standing firm even though they atr the ones losing the last years of their careers and about 70% of the money.

These guys are the ones who decide. And you wonder why I listen to Pronger? What did Smolinski say last week, "I don't know the details. When Trevor tells me we have a fair deal, I'll vote for it. Until then, we don't play."

If you don't listen to the union leadership, how do you decide what the union thinks?

Tom

 

[vanlady]

The Sedins need personal trainers and nutritionists? Why is that? The team doesn't provide anywhere for them to work out? Forces them to eat at McDonalds? This garbage about every NHLer having personal trainers and nutritionists is a load of bunk. None of NHLers that I know (whether from playing against growing up or in summer hockey etc.) has a personal trainer or a nutritionist, let alone both. That doesn't mean that some don't, but let's not make it out to be standard operating procedure for all NHLers.

As for equipment. There is no way the Sedins are paying for equipment. Exactly what equipment do you think they pay for?

Of course the top guys will get raises first. Like I said, if the Sedins are top six forwards on the Canucks, won't that put them in that group and not the third and fourth liners (who, incidentally, won't earn more money in Europe anyway)?

First there is a gym here in Vancouver that would be every puck bunnies dream, because half our lineup works out there because there personal trainer owns the gym. How do I know, once upon a time (before kids) I too used to work out there and still go and visit the owner.

Second, nurishonists are far more common than you think. One of the lawyers I used to works for the law firm I was at. His wife is one of the top nutrishonists in the country. On her list of clients are a fairly large group of NHL players, however she also has clients from the CFL, NBA and MLB. I got some great autographs when I had to go to there house on business.

Unfortuantely if the revenues drop greatly only 5-6 players will get over 1 million a year. If that is a mix of goalie, defencemen and forwards your second line is not going to get more money.

Just the tax difference between Sweden and Canada makes it worth there while to stay home. Let's see 34% vs 51%

 

[quat]

Agents are a small expence compared to taxes and stipends. Or in Vancouvers case, buying a house. By the way, were you aware that the Sedins would have to spend there entire years pay to afford a condo in Vancouver?

I certainly hope you're not in real estate. Afford? Are you serious? Perhaps you mean "purchase outright with cash"?

 

[Cully9]

If you don't listen to the union leadership, how do you decide what the union thinks?

Tom

The union leadership will do anything Bob Goodenow tells them to do (just like players like Smolinski will do whatever Linden tells him to do -- independent thought is hardly a strong suit here). After the financial windfalls they've received in their careers, Goodenow could tell them to play in evening gowns next season and they'd say, "Yes, Coach, er, Mr. Goodenow" and hop the boards in a sequined, strapless number.

 

[vanlady]

So how do you negotiate a CBA that is better for the owners? Welllll. According to you and Tom, you simply don't. Honestly, you guys make no sense what so ever.

The Owners should have negotiated sooner. The Owners aren't being fare. The Owners won't negotiate. The Owners are rich. The Owners are criminals. The Owners can't be trusted. The PA has no interest in the books. The Owners won't let us look at the books. The League is extremely healthy. The League is so weak it's going to lose franchises.

Nothing but an even more favourable deal for the players, or at the very minimum, the status quo would please you. Personally, I am extremely tired of posters talking about the players being greedy or what have you... but the kind of fluff that you both post is based almost entirely on you unswerving support of a group of people who simply refuse to budge from the system that has almost ruined, and surely will ruin, if it's not changed, the NHL.

I heard this same doom and gloom in 94. Guess what the league is still here.