The more picks we have in later rounds, the better chance we have to get guys like Gallagher and Mete who can contribute a lot. Having 8 picks in rounds 2-4 will be a good start.
Trevor Timmins - The day they made me draft Louis Leblanc....
- Thread starter Whitesnake
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The more picks we have in later rounds, the better chance we have to get guys like Gallagher and Mete who can contribute a lot. Having 8 picks in rounds 2-4 will be a good start.
bryan1966
Time for some fast & skilled hockey!
Also pretty good drafting when you consider in 2014, 2015 & 2016 no second round picks as they were traded away.
I agree there were a few questionable picks but the draft is a crap shoot after the top 2 to 3 players are selected.
The cupboard is bare, lol.
2017 draft looking really good so far.
Hopefully it will be as good as 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016. Timmins is a back on a roll.
Drafting is not the issue, developing Fleury and the others has been.
Our drafting wasn't great between 2008 - 2011 (when we didn't have our 2nd round pick 3 of those years and our 1st for 1 of them), but was good before that and has been good since.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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In 2010, Timmins decided that it was worth giving our 2nd rounder to put our hands on Tinordi. Can people stop using 2010 as a proof that Timmins was robbed of that 2nd rounder please.....
2012 was terrible. Only Galchenyuk and Hudon made the NHL (and Galchenyuk was a 3OA). The rest are in the ECHL or Europe.
2013 was better in quantity with JDLR and McCarron being depth player and Lehkonen+Ghetto being middle 6 wingers. Fucale is still not done yet, but not getting my hopes up.
2014 is looking better than it was last year with Scherbak figuring things out. Evans and Hawkey might be NHL players and you never know for Lernout, maybe he can be a dept D down the road.
2015 has Juulsen which floor is now depth D with his current play. Might be a #4-6 D. The rest has a outside chance at the NHL (Vejdemo, Bourque and Addison).
2016 Sergachev is a stud (that we traded away). Bitten might make the show and Mete is definitely an NHL D with top4D potential.
If I had to rank those years:
2016
2014
2015
2013
2012
I think 2017 can challenge 2016. Hopefully 2018 takes the cake easily.
And if you compare our cupboard to other teams (or our U24 for teams like Toronto), yes it is kinda bare
Yes this is true. But, remember Tinordi was drafted for a very different NHL than the NHL of today. That also needs to be mentioned when discussing that pick, please.
2012 was terrible. Only Galchenyuk and Hudon made the NHL (and Galchenyuk was a 3OA). The rest are in the ECHL or Europe.
2013 was better in quantity with JDLR and McCarron being depth player and Lehkonen+Ghetto being middle 6 wingers. Fucale is still not done yet, but not getting my hopes up.
2014 is looking better than it was last year with Scherbak figuring things out. Evans and Hawkey might be NHL players and you never know for Lernout, maybe he can be a dept D down the road.
2015 has Juulsen which floor is now depth D with his current play. Might be a #4-6 D. The rest has a outside chance at the NHL (Vejdemo, Bourque and Addison).
2016 Sergachev is a stud (that we traded away). Bitten might make the show and Mete is definitely an NHL D with top4D potential.
If I had to rank those years:
2016
2014
2015
2013
2012
I think 2017 can challenge 2016. Hopefully 2018 takes the cake easily.
And if you compare our cupboard to other teams (or our U24 for teams like Toronto), yes it is kinda bare
imo, 2012 was not a bad draft. Galchenyuk was a good pick at #3 overall, considering his draft class (thank god we didn't have the scouts who took Yakupov and Ryan Murray ahead of him). Plus we got Hudon, who's shown he's at worst an offensive top 9 forward and could very well be a 50 point top 6 forward. Nailing your first round pick and drafting a top 6 or 9 forward on top of that is a very successful draft. We'd be in excellent shape if we did that every year.
The cupboard looks so bare because it's been plundered, with so many prospects graduating in the last couple of years: Sergachev, Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, De la Rose, Galchenyuk, Hudon, and undrafted free agents Carr and Lindgren, who were obviously scouted by our scouting department. That's 11 prospects from the those 2012-2016 years. And, yet throughout these years all we heard was how bare the cupboard is, how Hudon will never make it, Scherbak's a bust, Juulsen's a bust, Lehkonen, Ghetto, and Reway are more smurfs, etc..
After removing 11 prospects, the cupboard now includes Poehling, Ikonen, Brook, Walford, Fleury, Tsyka, Bitten, Addison, Lernout, McCarron, McNiven, plus everything Timmins will re-stock it with this summer.
As I said, look at other teams. Every team has guy like we have and many have better prospects on top of that. We're going up the ranking with 2017 and hopefully 2018, but we're still closer to the bottom than to the top.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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No it shouldn't . That too has to stop. It's not because we were part of teams that lacked vision that we have to say that we were just following what the ENTIRE NHL was going through. While some will talk about McIlRath and Oleksiak type of pick, in 2007, that is 3 years BEFORE the Tinordi pick, the Kings decided, wrongly, but they did it anyway, to pick Thomas Hickey with the 4th overall pick. And I aslo remember that when the big Alex Plante was chosen by Edmonton with the 15th pick, a MAJORITY of NON-professionnals like us, said that it was, AT THE TIME OF THE PICK, a stupid pick. Then in 2008, with the 15th pick, a frail and fragile purely offensive d-man was chosen....a certain Erik Karlsson. That is 2 YEARS before the Tinordi pick. Same year....Gardiner....Del Zotto....was the NHL different in 2008 and came back purely towering and defensive in 2010? In 2009, Yeah, Jared Cowan was picked at #9....but how about Ryan Ellis at #11? Or Nick Leddy at #16?
So enough with the "the NHL was different in 2010". Teams with a vision were already going for smaller more offensive and puck possession d-men. ONly teams with a lack of vision were still going with those big low potential d-men. And for us, that's even worst.....while we were scouting intensely Tinordi, on the same team, there was Jon Merrill, Stephen Johns but most importantly Justin Faulk. And we decided to go for the worst of the 4.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
I wouldnt say many teams do. Look at a team like Vancouver, their prospect pool is small, they have a blue chipper, three good ones and the rest is really meh. San jose, Dallas, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Washington, theres a lot of empty cupboards in the league. Not everyone is like Saint louis.
It's not about vision it's about what the rules were and how they were being enforced. The Preds are very lucky the NHL decided to partially take it's head out of its arse and partically make the rule changes it did, because Ellis was not very effective his first few years and would not be today had the rule changes/changes in the way the rules were enforced not happened.
When Bergevin came in, he and Timmins explicitly stated Bergevin was putting more of an emphasis on size and character. This was very apparent in the 2013 draft when we took McCarron, De la Rose, and Crisp. At the time everyone loved those picks and many complained that we drafted Lehkonen, Andrighetto, and Reway, saying even late round picks should be used to address our lack of size that was killing us at the time. I hated the McCarron, De la Rose, and Crisp picks at the time and still do.
It looks like Bergevin is no longer going to mandate drafting for size and hopefully after the Louis Leblanc pick there won't be pressure to pick a Quebecer. We'll get to see what Timmins can do. I expect 2018 to continue in the vain of 2012 - 2017 and 2003 - 2007. He's been good when we miss the playoffs with our 1st rounders and hopefully he'll find at least 2 more top 4 dmen/top 6 forwards in the later rounds. Given he has 4 2nd rounders plus picks after the 2nd round, 2 top 4d/top 6 forwards after the first round would be a good haul.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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So....are you saying that the NHL decided to please Nashville and adapted their new NHL to their picks? So how about Leddy? How about Karlsson? How about all tlhe others? Why did they picked them? So they would have been wrong? How so? There were no smaller players that succeeded before? Geez, did smaller d-men started ONLY to be important from 2011 and up? Really? I mean, in 2005, Joe Finley was chosen 1 rank before Matt Niskanen....pretty sure it was well known in 2010 that Niskanen had a better career. Kris Letang or Sasha Pokulok? Mark Giordano wasn't picked....and that was 2005. As far as your 2013 draft, well that clearly wasn't me. Draft should be for skills. NOBODY loves Crisp pick.
LaP
Registered User
And what did the NHL change lately? There's less hooking than the 90ies for sure but not less than after the lockout in 2005. What is happening is mainly players driven. The highly skilled kids incoming are not big they are fast (nothing to do with the NHL today at all those kids were born at the end of the 90ies). So to counter them you need fast players. Couple of years ago the kids incoming were Thornton, Perry, Getzlaf and cie. Now they are McDavid, Barzal, Kucherov
Every team has young players better than Sergachev in their system? Oh wait, the GM traded him. Not the scouts' fault.
Every team has a core of stars better than Price, Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, and Gallagher that were drated by the team? Oh wait the GMs traded McDonagh and Subban. Not the scouts' fault.
When you squander McDonagh, Subban, and Sergachev, plus don't bother to get Radulov and Markov resigned that will drive your team from being a contender to last place. Those types of players don't come along often. You simply can't squander any of them, let alone 5 of them.
Tampa Bay does have a lot of good young players. Kucherov and Point were drafted outside the first round. But we drafted Subban and Gallagher outside of the first round. Trading a stud and star like Subban is what will cost us for years, not that we haven't drafted enough of them. But in addition to these players they're core is made up of early 1st round picks as they were so bad for so long. (Stanmkos #1, Hedman #2, Drouin #3, Brent Connolly #6, Slater Koekkoek #10,). But although they've made some good selections in later rounds, they had five top 10 picks in 6 years (2008- 2013), and managed to screw up 3 of them! But they're GM was able to trade one of their screw ups (Drouin #3) for one of Timmins' great picks (Sergachev at #9).
The GM moves is why we are where we are, and Tampa are where they are, not the drafting.
Pacioretty Danault Radulov
Scherbak Galchenyuk Gallagher
Lehkonen Byron Hudon
Carr Froese/De la Rose Deslaurier
McDonagh/Markov Subban
Sergachev Petry
Mete Juulsen
Pateryn
Price
Niemi/Lindgren
I'll take that team any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Thank you Timmins for so many good draft picks. Too bad our GMs couldn't turn them into much.
All Bergevin had to do was resign Radulov and Markov, and not squander Subban and Sergachev. Was that really that hard.
It makes zero sense to compare our prospect pool to teams like San Jose, Dallas, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Washington and STL who have been contending for many years and they’ve traded draft picks to contend for the Cup. What have we been doing to be so terrible?
Vancouver has Horvat, a #1C, and Boeser who was on pace for 40 goals this year. They just graduated these players recently. They also have Goldobin.
Edmonton has McDavid and Draisaitl at center ice.
You have to look at prospects through existing young players. We have among the worst prospects for who we already have established as young players in the league.
It’s not even an argument lol there are no young impact players on our NHL squad or in our prospect pool.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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No I'm not saying the NHL changed the rules to appease Nashville. I'm saying the rule changes gave Ellis the career he wouldn't have had otherwise.
If you look at how many smaller players were taken in the first round last year, there's just now way that would have happened when size was more important in the game. A few teams were bold here and there. For example, it's well known Burke passed on Karlesson because of his size. I highly doubt Burke or any other GM passes on Karlesson today because of size. Karlesson would have been good in any era. But players like Ellis wouldn't. Thank the heavens the NHL has partially changed the rules and enforced the current ones.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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The rule changes have everything to do with smaller players being able to thrive. In fact, the game has changed drastically from last year to this year because of a rule change. Last year scoring was much lower and the game was more of a pin ball type game. Many retired stars were complaining how boring it was to see the puck being sent all over the ice without players being able to control it very long.
So, the NHL starts the season off enforcing hooking properly, or at least semi properly but better. Now you can't put your stick on another players gloves, you can't hook them with one hand, you can't slash and hook another players stick. All this has led to players actually being able to stickhandle with the puck and make plays with the puck. Scoring is up and the game looks much less like a pin ball game. Oh, and this also allows smaller, fast, skilled players to floorish. It's great. Hopefully they continue to enforce the rules.
You are right, our drafting is pretty solid. That’s not the issue. It’s how they develop once we get them on the farm.
I find all this talk about Tinordi being taken for a bye gone NHL a bit off base.
Sure, tje NHL has changed over the years. But if I may.
Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Mathieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins, Chris Chelios.
Ok, so we have gone back 40 years. Yes, in olden day there would have been more of a place for tje defensive shut down D, but there has never been a time in tje past 40 years that the skilled, fast offensive D was not the top D players on the team.
My point being that we do not have the luxury of picking a non skill at best no.4 ceiling D a la Alzner with our 1st round pick. This would have been a stupid pick 40 , 30 and 20 years ago.
Skill , speed and sense.
Sure, tje NHL has changed over the years. But if I may.
Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Mathieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins, Chris Chelios.
Ok, so we have gone back 40 years. Yes, in olden day there would have been more of a place for tje defensive shut down D, but there has never been a time in tje past 40 years that the skilled, fast offensive D was not the top D players on the team.
My point being that we do not have the luxury of picking a non skill at best no.4 ceiling D a la Alzner with our 1st round pick. This would have been a stupid pick 40 , 30 and 20 years ago.
Skill , speed and sense.
The game during the eras you mentioned was also different than during the "clutch & grab" era and its aftermath. I see the current game as restoring hockey as it used to be and was meant to be. Rocket Richard was 5"8 or 5"9? He may have at best been a 20 goal scorer in the clutch and grab era. It was sad, and horrible to watch. It's what led people like Tiger Woods to say "I don't think any one watches hockey anymore."
The good news is, this year has been much better. The calling of hooking the hands has made a big difference. Once the players were getting so big and fast there was no room out there to handle the puck. The initial clamping down on hooking made a bit of an impact. This latest clamping down on hooking to the hands has also made that much of a difference.
Scintillating10
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