Trevor Timmins - The day they made me draft Louis Leblanc....

[Habs100]

Your question dodge is admitting Timmins has been an absolute failure at scouting centres. 14 years of failing to draft centres. Galchenyuk, Grabovski, and probably Poehling after 14 years of picks. That's a failure.

Nashville has had the same head of scouting since 2011. If he goes 10 years and the best centre he drafts is Colton Sissons he should be fired as well. Hellberg instead of Karlsson or Rask was a failure. Same to drafting Tinordi over Coyle and Kuznetsov.

The question is not a dodge at all. Nashville hasn't drafted centers and are contenders. Period. Their GM used their surplus of Dmen to trade for centers. Our GMs tried to do this and failed. That's the difference.

 

[Habs100]

Nashville lost Suter for nothing. Nashville lost RAdulov for nothing. They lose Hornqvist, but gained James Neal who they lost.....for nothing. I hear you and it's really as if the Habs are the only ones who have lost a trade they couldn't recuperate of and then Timmins couldn't do a single thing about it. And yet...Nashville is seen as a really deep team. Why? 'Cause after drafting Suter, They drafted Weber, Klein, Josi, Ellis, Ekholm, Jones and Girard. And even some D fillers in Franson and Bittetto. That's what build depth.

Nashville missed the playoffs 6 times since 2003. And thus had 6 lottery picks. Plus, their GM actually made a successful major trade and traded Martin Erat for 10th overall pick Filip Forsberg. So that's like them getting 7 lottery picks. We had 5. Take two away (Suter and Radulov) and we're on a level playing field with 5 apiece.

Nashville lost Hornquvist/Neal, but then they go out and sign Bonino. Who has our GM signed Alzner? Briere? Prust? His one good signing, Radulov, was lost by nickle and dimming him after 1 year, so it amounted to him doing nothing.

 

[Habs100]

It's an hypothetical scenario that could go either way. I could say that neither Pacioretty nor Price has proven to be playoffs material, but you could reply that with the guys we let go, they would have proven it to which I'd say.....well....maybe? What's the point here? It's being part of an hockey team...with his bad and good moves. But your job as a scouting group is to provide great players every year. Does that happen every year? Of course not. 'Cause that's the name of the game. But at one point, when your biggeset success are 12 years old....you know that there is a problem and that you know why you can't build depth.

The biggest success will likely always be 12 years ago, because a draft like that is a once in a lifetime draft, a total heist, not a bar for success...as stated previously, I think we're back to building depth.

The bottom line to me is I think the team Timmins drafted is good enough to contend if our GM successfully converts 1 or 2 of the elite d he drafted to centers, as Nashville proved is possible.

I'll happily take this team:

Pacioretty Danault Radulov
Scherbak Glachenyuk Gallagher
Lehkonen Plekanec Hudon
Carr Froese/DLR Deslaurier/Byron

Markov Subban
McDonagh Petry
Sergachev Juulsen
Mete/Reilly/Benn

Price
Niemi/Lindgren

 

[Nedved]

The biggest success will likely always be 12 years ago, because a draft like that is a once in a lifetime draft, a total heist, not a bar for success...as stated previously, I think we're back to building depth.

The bottom line to me is I think the team Timmins drafted is good enough to contend if our GM successfully converts 1 or 2 of the elite d he drafted to centers, as Nashville proved is possible.

I'll happily take this team:

Pacioretty Danault Radulov
Scherbak Glachenyuk Gallagher
Lehkonen Plekanec Hudon
Carr Froese/DLR Deslaurier/Byron

Markov Subban
McDonagh Petry
Sergachev Juulsen
Mete/Reilly/Benn

Price
Niemi/Lindgren

We still have no number 1 center.

 

[Habs100]

We still have no number 1 center.

And which center's did Nashville, one of the best teams in the league, draft.

 

[Nedved]

And which center's did Nashville, one of the best teams in the league, draft.

I can’t see past the pens Malkin and Crosby.

 

[Whitesnake]

And which center's did Nashville, one of the best teams in the league, draft.

They were able to get that centerman because as great as our d-men depth was, their depth was better. 'Cause their D are all proven. As much as we think Sergachev will be..he still isn't. Subban for a centerman STILL means a terrible D for us. What you needed for the GM is transform Subban for a C and a D. But Nashville was able to do 1 on 1 because of their depth on D. And that's without Suter that they had lost before.

You could not have gotten a Johansen for a Sergachev.

 

[Habs100]

They were able to get that centerman because as great as our d-men depth was, their depth was better. 'Cause their D are all proven. As much as we think Sergachev will be..he still isn't.

Seth Jones was proven ? He was 22 and his career high in points was 27 and he was on pace for 22 points halfway through the year he was traded. 19 year old Samuel Girard was proven?

 

[Whitesnake]

Seth Jones was proven ? He was 22 and his career high in points was 27 and he was on pace for 22 points halfway through the year he was traded. 19 year old Samuel Girard was proven?

You can be a proven NHL'er without being a superstar you know. Everybody knew this is where he was headed, pretty sure you are a proven NHL'er when you play more than 20 minutes every game, so mething Seth Jones was done the year before he was traded.......There are more things than number of points to know if you are a proven NHL'er......And Samuel Girard was not traded 1 for 1. It had to come with Kamenev and a 2nd rounder for Kyle Turris. Not Ryan Johansen. We went with Jo Drouin with Sergachev. a 50-point winger.

While Markov had to be signed for at least another year, you absolutely cannot tell me that you are counting him as "depth purposes". This was not a guy you could count on for a long run.

 

[Habs100]

You can be a proven NHL'er without being a superstar you know. Everybody knew this is where he was headed, pretty sure you are a proven NHL'er when you play more than 20 minutes every game, so mething Seth Jones was done the year before he was traded.......And Samuel Girard was not traded 1 for 1. It had to come with Kamenev and a 2nd rounder for Kyle Turris. Not Ryan Johansen. We went with Jo Drouin with Sergachev. a 50-point winger.

At the end of the day each player is where they are and they will be what they will be. It's up to the GM to maximize their value and trade them at the right time.

McDonagh turned the Rangers around, was an all star, their captain, best dman and took them to the finals.

Sergachev was one of the hottest blue chip prospects. We'll see what kind of career he has. Bob McKenzie thought he was special the moment he saw him in Junior and thinks he's a can't miss star. If you can't get a center for him now, you wait. Unless your goal is to get a potential French Canadian star, one is available, and there may not be one available for a long time.

 

[Whitesnake]

At the end of the day each player is where they are and they will be what they will be. It's up to the GM to maximize their value and trade them at the right time.

McDonagh turned the Rangers around, was an all star, their captain, best dman and took them to the finals.

Sergachev was one of the hottest blue chip prospects. We'll see what kind of career he has. Bob McKenzie thought he was special the moment he saw him in Junior and thinks he's a can't miss star. If you can't get a center for him now, you wait. Unless your goal is to get a potential French Canadian star, one is available, and there may not be one available for a long time.

And again, nobody says that this trade was a great one. I said numerous times that this trade made sense ONLY if it means getting other people to play him and SURELY not think that he was a centerman. So yeah....I would have kept Sergachev...and personnally, this guy would not have gone anywhere. Why? Because, again, of our lack of depth on D. This guy was a great 1st pairing partner to Weber. So that position would have been settled. You would not have been able to trade him anyway. Mete, Juulsen have still ways to go before you can think it makes a guy like Sergachev expendable. But that means while that position would have been set....still means NO centermen, and nobody to trade to fix that because of our lack of depth.

But again, people have to stop with talking about somebody that was traded 11 years ago. AT one point, you move on. Shit happens. And there are 7 picks a year for a team to exactly be able to make up for mistakes. We should have been able to make up for it. It is possible that we do with the last draft. But it's still too soon to tell. But still, you shoul dhave been able to do it. And it goes back to Tinordi.....you pick Kuznetsov and your C position is settled.

 

[Habs100]

And again, nobody says that this trade was a great one. I said numerous times that this trade made sense ONLY if it means getting other people to play him and SURELY not think that he was a centerman. So yeah....I would have kept Sergachev...and personnally, this guy would not have gone anywhere. Why? Because, again, of our lack of depth on D. This guy was a great 1st pairing partner to Weber. So that position would have been settled. You would not have been able to trade him anyway. Mete, Juulsen have still ways to go before you can think it makes a guy like Sergachev expendable.

But again, people have to stop with talking about somebody that was traded 11 years ago. AT one point, you move on. **** happens. And there are 7 picks a year for a team to exactly be able to make up for mistakes. We should have been able to make up for it. It is possible that we do with the last draft. But it's still too soon to tell. But still, you shoul dhave been able to do it. And it goes back to Tinordi.....you pick Kuznetsov and your C position is settled.

Losing key building blocks is something that cripples a franchise. Dorion, Bergevin, and Chiarelli have only made a few trades. But it only takes a few to wreck a franchise.

It's one thing to lose 1 key piece. It's another to lose McDonagh, Subban, Markov, Sergachev, and Radulov, and only get back an past his prime Weber and Drouin, espceicaly when you're GM has brought in zero, zilch, key pieces.

Poile brought in Forsberg and Bonino for nothing and used his key draft d draft choices to bring in Johanssen, Turris, and Subban in his prime. That's a night and day difference. Take Turris and Johanssen away, just through them away, or replace them with Drouin, take Bonino away and where is Nashville?

 

[mariolemieux66]

Losing key building blocks is something that cripples a franchise. Dorion, Bergevin, and Chiarelli have only made a few trades. But it only takes a few to wreck a franchise.

It's one thing to lose 1 key piece. It's another to lose McDonagh, Subban, Markov, Sergachev, and Radulov, and only get back an past his prime Weber and Drouin, espceicaly when you're GM has brought in zero, zilch, key pieces.

Poile brought in Forsberg and Bonino for nothing and used his key draft d draft choices to bring in Johanssen, Turris, and Subban in his prime. That's a night and day difference. Take Turris and Johanssen away, just through them away, or replace them with Drouin, take Bonino away and where is Nashville?

He brought Emelin (retained) in, who's a very good number 5 and can play top minutes if needed. Hartnell, Fisher and Hartman is added size and experience on the forward group. He traded his first this year, but its most likely a late 1st, something Bergevin should have done when he decided to go all in. Poile didn't trade his best prospect in Tolvanen and Fabbro at the deadline. I would take Poile over our last 5 GMs.

 

[Whitesnake]

Losing key building blocks is something that cripples a franchise. Dorion, Bergevin, and Chiarelli have only made a few trades. But it only takes a few to wreck a franchise.

It's one thing to lose 1 key piece. It's another to lose McDonagh, Subban, Markov, Sergachev, and Radulov, and only get back an past his prime Weber and Drouin, espceicaly when you're GM has brought in zero, zilch, key pieces.

Poile brought in Forsberg and Bonino for nothing and used his key draft d draft choices to bring in Johanssen, Turris, and Subban in his prime. That's a night and day difference. Take Turris and Johanssen away, just through them away, or replace them with Drouin, take Bonino away and where is Nashville?

We can go on and on and on....and yet I guess you just don't want to accept my point. Fine. They were able to get Turris because there were able to give up Girard based on the d-men depth they were able to get through the draft. They were able to get Johansen because of the same d-men depth they were able to get through the draft. And enough with Bonino, they had to get Mike Fisher out of retirement because they were not too sure of Bonino's play.

Again, yes, a GM has to do his job. But a head scout has to provide player on a more regular basis than every 10 years so that you at least have something to deal. Yep, lately we had Subban and Sergachev. We should have just kept them. Would have mean a much better defense in its entirety. Especially for a longer run. But even as far as today is concerned, Sergachev is not ready. He will be though, no doubut about that. But keeping Subban and Sergachev, while it means a better defense than the terrible one we have, one of the worst in the league, STILL means no centermen and a forward position still not strong enough to compete for a Cup. It still means Danault centering the 1st line. And no teams that won or competed for a Cup did so with a Danault centering their 1st line. It does not happen. As much better a D we would have with Sergachev, Subban and even Markov. But what that D would be is MUCH better but a Sergachev who is still learning. And in 2 years, a D that would have to replace Markov. I would have done it. But it STILL means we are missing a lot of pieces up front, especially at the C position but on the wings too.

 

[Habs100]

We can go on and on and on....and yet I guess you just don't want to accept my point. Fine. They were able to get Turris because there were able to give up Girard based on the d-men depth they were able to get through the draft. They were able to get Johansen because of the same d-men depth they were able to get through the draft. And enough with Bonino, they had to get Mike Fisher out of retirement because they were not too sure of Bonino's play.

Again, yes, a GM has to do his job. But a head scout has to provide player on a more regular basis than every 10 years so that you at least have something to deal. Yep, lately we had Subban and Sergachev. We should have just kept them. Would have mean a much better defense in its entirety. Especially for a longer run. But even as far as today is concerned, Sergachev is not ready. He will be though, no doubut about that. But keeping Subban and Sergachev, while it means a better defense than the terrible one we have, one of the worst in the league, STILL means no centermen and a forward position still not strong enough to compete for a Cup. It still means Danault centering the 1st line. And no teams that won or competed for a Cup did so with a Danault centering their 1st line. It does not happen. As much better a D we would have with Sergachev, Subban and even Markov. But what that D would be is MUCH better but a Sergachev who is still learning. And in 2 years, a D that would have to replace Markov. I would have done it. But it STILL means we are missing a lot of pieces up front, especially at the C position but on the wings too.

yes we do disagree. I think the lineup I showed you earlier, with Subban, Sergachev, Markov, and Radulov is good enough to compete for the cup. I think the drafting has been good enough, but the GM didn't add enough to the drafting, he made the team worse with his moves.

Nashville survived losing Sutter and Radulov because they had more lottery picks, so even after those 2 losses, we've both had the same number of lottery picks since 2003. And we also lost Radulov for nothing thanks to our GM. If you have more lottery picks you should have more depth. Whether Nashville could afford to lose Jones and Girard because of their depth is irrelevant. They gave up Jones and Girard and got Johanssen and Turris. We gave up McDonagh and Sergachev and got Gomez and Drouin. Take Turris and Johanssen away and give them Gomez and Drouin. And while you're at it, give them 32 year old Weber and take back Subban. And take away a piece comporable to Markov, who was top 15 in scoring for dmen last year, and give them 8 million in cap space that they sit on and don't sign anyone with it. And take away the Filip Forsberg for Erat trade, our GM never made a move like that. Are they still contenders?

 

[Price is Wright]

yes we do disagree. I think the lineup I showed you earlier, with Subban, Sergachev, Markov, and Radulov is good enough to compete for the cup.

The lineup with Danault as the #1 centre? Please.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Your question dodge is admitting Timmins has been an absolute failure at scouting centres. 14 years of failing to draft centres. Galchenyuk, Grabovski, and probably Poehling after 14 years of picks. That's a failure.

Nashville has had the same head of scouting since 2011. If he goes 10 years and the best centre he drafts is Colton Sissons he should be fired as well. Hellberg instead of Karlsson or Rask was a failure. Same to drafting Tinordi over Coyle and Kuznetsov.

Dude, have to agree with Habs100. If you have someone who's great at getting stud Ds, outside the top 5-10 to boot, you keep him, no matter if he's bad at getting centers. You can parlay the depth at D for other needs, just like Nashville did.

 

[Habaneros]

lets make a wrong a right

Hire Louis Leblanc as general manager he can replace Bergevin?

 

[Price is Wright]

Dude, have to agree with Habs100. If you have someone who's great at getting stud Ds, outside the top 5-10 to boot, you keep him, no matter if he's bad at getting centers. You can parlay the depth at D for other needs, just like Nashville did.

Until 2007 his only good draft defenceman were Mark Streit, an overager late pick that was likely more a European scout than anything, and Alex Emelin. Then in 2007 of course he got McDonagh and Subban. After that? No good defencemen drafted except Beaulieu until either Juulsen or the Sergachev/Mete draft. So the stud D reputation is really just the 2007 draft which was how many years ago?

Otherwise his reputation includes the likes of Ryan O'Byrne, David Fischer, Matthieu Carle, Yannick Weber, Mac Bennett, Jarred Tinordi (who cost an extra second round pick to select), Dalton Thrower and Brett Lernout. I only named guys taken in the first three rounds there.

So that career, you want to continue, as well as his failure to draft centres. You guys got very low standards.

 

[Habs100]

The lineup with Danault as the #1 centre? Please.

Ok so we disagree. Pacioretty Danault Radulov were a great line last year. They needed a 2nd line behind them. It's easy to shut down a one line team. But if we do need a center, first of all you properly develop Chucky, starting now. Second, you make better trades with your stud dmen than Sergachev for Drouin, McDonagh for Gomez, and prime Subban for past his prime Weber. Nashville was able to do it.

 

[Whitesnake]

yes we do disagree. I think the lineup I showed you earlier, with Subban, Sergachev, Markov, and Radulov is good enough to compete for the cup. I think the drafting has been good enough, but the GM didn't add enough to the drafting, he made the team worse with his moves.

Nashville survived losing Sutter and Radulov because they had more lottery picks, so even after those 2 losses, we've both had the same number of lottery picks since 2003. And we also lost Radulov for nothing thanks to our GM. If you have more lottery picks you should have more depth. Whether Nashville could afford to lose Jones and Girard because of their depth is irrelevant. They gave up Jones and Girard and got Johanssen and Turris. We gave up McDonagh and Sergachev and got Gomez and Drouin. Take Turris and Johanssen away and give them Gomez and Drouin. And while you're at it, give them 32 year old Weber and take back Subban. And take away a piece comporable to Markov, who was top 15 in scoring for dmen last year, and give them 8 million in cap space that they sit on and don't sign anyone with it. And take away the Filip Forsberg for Erat trade, our GM never made a move like that. Are they still contenders?

I have no idea what the lottery picks are doing there. Since 2003, they had 3 top 10 picks. We had 4 top 10 picks. Lottery, not lottery, has nothing to do with that. A 1st overall pick is a lottery pick. A 10th is a lottery pick too. A 15th is a lottery pick too. And yet, there could be a WORLD of difference between the skills of a 1st overall and a 14th overall. In the end, we had 1 more top 10 then them. Then, since 2003, they were deprived of 4 1st rounders. We are whining because we were deprived of 1 1st rounder in 2008. Their D depth was build on Jones, a No3 and Ellis, a No11, but also on Josi, Ekholm, Weber, Klein who were NOT 1st rounders.

And it's not about take away, give away, change history and so on. NOBODY is downplaying the role of a GM. Our GM sucks. And should have done a much better job. But should Timmins just close shop? Because our GM sucks? Was Tinordi our 1st rounder 'cause our GM traded McDonagh for Gomez? Was Fischer our 1st rounder 'cause Gainey sucks? How about the Rivet for Gorges and 1st? How were we able to get Pacioretty if that wasn't because of that trade? Should Timmins NOT be applauded for the Pacioretty pick 'cause in the end, it's the trade that made it possible? YES....the perfect recipe is the scouting be aligned with the GMing. That what the scouting are able to find, you are either able to use it or are able to transform in. The REAL miss in that regard is McDonagh. Subban vs Weber, FOR NOW, was not suppose to be that much of a problem. For later? Of course. Not for now.

Sergachev for Drouin, you are talking right now about a Sergachev who is only able to do what he does because he is playing in one of the best team in the league and even there...he struggles. Which is totally normal for a kid at his age. But imagine if he'd be playing elsewhere, we wouldn't probably not be talking about him in the NHL. And Drouin acquisition is still a 50-point player. That has, as one of his biggest problem, a stupid usage. Yes, it is possible that we find out that this guy is just not a character guy and will retire soon. Possible. But to this day, he was acquired as a 50-point player. And chances are, YES, if our GM would have been able to retain Radulov and get a centerman, the bad trade you are talking about in Sergachev for Drouin....you wouldn't be talking about it now.

 

[Whitesnake]

2014.....Ryan Donato that would have been picked 1 pick early to where we would have picked if we'd still have our pick in the 2nd round but gave it for Vanek. But if we would have kept him, that would have been a pick for Brayden Point. And also, note that we've traded up to pick Brett Lernout. Can you imagine that? We traded to get a defensive d-man with no upside. Instead of going with Point. And in the process, lost a 117 pick. Luckily enough, there was nothing available after that pick that year....but it's not always the case.

 

[WeThreeKings]

2014.....Ryan Donato that would have been picked 1 pick early to where we would have picked if we'd still have our pick in the 2nd round but gave it for Vanek. But if we would have kept him, that would have been a pick for Brayden Point. And also, note that we've traded up to pick Brett Lernout. Can you imagine that? We traded to get a defensive d-man with no upside. Instead of going with Point. And in the process, lost a 117 pick. Luckily enough, there was nothing available after that pick that year....but it's not always the case.

Loved Ryan Donato. I think I may have picked him in one of our mocks. If not, he was stolen from me before my pick.

 

[Whitesnake]

Loved Ryan Donato. I think I may have picked him in one of our mocks. If not, he was stolen from me before my pick.

Didn't think his upside was that great. Boy does it look like I was wrong....

 

[WeThreeKings]

Didn't think his upside was that great. Boy does it look like I was wrong....

Took Kempe 1st round, Donato second round and Walman third round, for Dallas that year.