Trevor Timmins Part III

[Belial]

Nah it was never the narrative. You can rack 100 NHL'ers all you want, if most don't play a key role, it's not important. Using DLR, McCarron and Scherbak as a proof that we are so great is bogus. Hudon while looking good is still learning out there and it's not like he's racking points either. What's BS is to use those callups to prove a point. 'Cause the day that are sent back...can I then say how bad we are? So next week we will be great because of those 2 callups....but next week we will be bad again? Is it how it works?

And my point about Pastrnak had nothing to do with where he was taken. But just answering his narrative of "how many players playing in the NHL right now". Why are people having so much trouble with people sticking to the subject?

Mete's playing on our first pair and you have Chucky, Lehkonen and Hudon in your top 9.

And no, we will not be bad again, the average of developed players would still be decent compared to the rest of the league.

 

[Whitesnake]

Mete's playing on our first pair and you have Chucky, Lehkonen and Hudon in your top 9.

And no, we will not be bad again, the average of developed players would still be decent compared to the rest of the league.

While I think the world out of Mete and I was amongst a few people who LOVED the pick when it happened....he is still there by default. And as a first pairing d-men, you need to show some numbers. And no matter where the others are playing, they also need to show some numbers. Playing top 9 of a terrible team and you have no numbers is NOT a proof that you are so great at drafting players. Mind you, again, I'm not saying that it will always be like that. And we will revise that in due time. But to use the number of draftees that plays in the NHL, in a year when it's so bad, is really not a good way to analyse somebody's work....

 

[Habs Icing]

Again...Timmins is not bad. He isn't the worst. He doesn't suck. But maybe he's not the saviour that some people thought he was. And maybe it would be fine to have quite a few pairs of fresh eyes. That's all.

Quite awhile ago I went to the Habs page and clicked on front office and you know what I found?

Trevor Timmins assistant GM.
Shane Churla director of amateur scouting.

Maybe we've had a few pairs of others eyes and no one on this board bothered to take notice. I'm not saying they're fresh. Maybe your wish came true and you didn't notice.

 

[Johnny31]

For me Timmins did an overall good job. The problem seems to be more with the developpement team.
Guy like De La Rose seem to be worst than his first game in the nhl.

 

[Chili]

Quite awhile ago I went to the Habs page and clicked on front office and you know what I found?

Trevor Timmins assistant GM.
Shane Churla director of amateur scouting.

Maybe we've had a few pairs of others eyes and no one on this board bothered to take notice. I'm not saying they're fresh. Maybe your wish came true and you didn't notice.

Forget who it was but `believe it was someone from `Habs Eyes On The Prize`saying on TSN690 recently that the amateur scouting is now under Martin Lapointe instead of Timmins.

Would appreciate if anyone could confirm that.

 

[Habs Icing]

Forget who it was but `believe it was someone from `Habs Eyes On The Prize`saying on TSN690 recently that the amateur scouting is now under Martin Lapointe instead of Timmins.

Would appreciate if anyone could confirm that.

Lapointe is director of player personnel.

https://www.nhl.com/canadiens/team/hockey-operations

 

[Chili]

Lapointe is director of player personnel.

https://www.nhl.com/canadiens/team/hockey-operations

Not sure but believe that was Timmins previous title to the promotion last summer.

Anyway, interesting article here with Lapointe going over the team`s top prospects...



Èdit : tried to post a link to an article on sportsnet.ca by Eric Engels from early october.

If you Google Montréal Canadiens prospect report : Lapointe on 10 youngsters
it should come up.

 

[Whitesnake]

Quite awhile ago I went to the Habs page and clicked on front office and you know what I found?

Trevor Timmins assistant GM.
Shane Churla director of amateur scouting.

Maybe we've had a few pairs of others eyes and no one on this board bothered to take notice. I'm not saying they're fresh. Maybe your wish came true and you didn't notice.

The great part about this is that when Bergevin was asked about the new titles from Timmins, he responded that the title changed, but not the job. Incredibly enough, at the draft table, the guy beside Bergevin is STILL Trevor Timmins. Strange that it's still him who is beside Bergevin and is STILL calling the names of the players drafted if he has nothing to do with it. Go beyond the title and read that here..."He oversees the Canadiens' amateur scouting system, including the annual NHL Entry Draft and amateur free-agent recruitment. Trevor also oversees the Club's amateur scouting staff, covering Canada, the United States and Europe. Trevor also supervises the annual NHL combine, as well as the Canadiens' own combine, a pre-draft player evaluation process which takes place at the Bell Sports Complex in Brossard every summer."`

Something tells me that he still has the reigns. He is surely helped more by Churla...but he still has the final say until proven otherwise. If not, well it should end the whole "Oh no, we can't let Timmins go, he is too great, nobody can replace him!!!".

 

[Belial]

The great part about this is that when Bergevin was asked about the new titles from Timmins, he responded that the title changed, but not the job. Incredibly enough, at the draft table, the guy beside Bergevin is STILL Trevor Timmins. Strange that it's still him who is beside Bergevin and is STILL calling the names of the players drafted if he has nothing to do with it. But I guess you didn't notice that.

It's still Timmins in charge, it's pretty clear. His official title doesn't matter.

Before the draft and after the draft it's Timmins that broke down all the picks in front of the media.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Timmins drafting from 2008 to 2011 was horrible, but since 2012 we've been drafting well

2012: Galchenyuk, Hudon
2013: McCarron, De la Rose, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, Reway
2014: Scherbak, Lernout, Audette, Evans
2015: Juulsen, Vejdemo (looks good this year), Bourque, Addison
2016: Sergachev, Bitten, Mete. Hm: Pezzetta has look good this year
2017: Too early to tell, but Poehling seems like a steal so far

 

[montreal]

I've been saying for some time, none of us know what is going on behind the scenes. How much pull does Churla have, what picks are on him over say what Timmins may have done in a normal year. The guy has been able to find talent in the past, our current development system can't say they have had much success in all this time. We seem to do better with prospects that develop outside the AHL then we do in under Lefebvre but clearly that's not on Timmins. People talk about MB's worst move being Subban or Getto or whatever, but for me it's hands down the hiring of a rookie head coach to lead our development, the re-hiring and worst of all to re-hire him again with such a piss poor track record.

 

[Whitesnake]

Timmins drafting from 2008 to 2011 was horrible, but since 2012 we've been drafting well

2012: Galchenyuk, Hudon
2013: McCarron, De la Rose, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, Reway
2014: Scherbak, Lernout, Audette, Evans
2015: Juulsen, Vejdemo (looks good this year), Bourque, Addison
2016: Sergachev, Bitten, Mete. Hm: Pezzetta has look good this year
2017: Too early to tell, but Poehling seems like a steal so far

You don't think that you should add McCarron, DLR, Reway, Sherbak, Lernout, AUdette, Evans, Juulsen, Vejdemo, Bourque, Addison, Bitten and Pezzetta in your list of "Too early to tell"? You are convinced that every guy you named are NHL'ers and great ones on top of it? Am I saying they won't? Nope. But how the heck can you already put them all in your list of great drafting??? Based on what they are doing in juniors? So I guess that based on that analysis, it means that not that long ago, you would have put Dietz, Ellis, Bournival, Dumont (50 goals in the AHL), Nygren, Kristo etc. on that list too? 'Cause that's what you are doing right now. Even Hudon....he plays well. He belongs in the NHL. But he has no stats to show for. Is quantity better than quality? Since 2012, we can say that Galchy, Lehkonen, Sergachev and Ghetto are his best moves. And people who don't want to give credit to teams who draft top 5, well you have a Galchy who was drafted No3. Hudon looks like a fine draft pick...but needs to convert his chances. The rest are a huge quesiton mark. That could go either way. Yes, we all have our opinions, chances are McCarron and DLR will be NHL'ers but nothing more than 4th liners. Chances are Lernout makes it in the NHL as a No5. Juulsen should be a NO4 at best, Mete should be a top 4 too and Poehling has all the makings of a NHL'er. So how many of those will play a key role...that's needs to be determined. And that's how you build a great team. Not with fillers. Not with complementary players. But with leaders. How many of those guys would you trade for a 3rd rounders like Nikita Kucherov?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Timmins drafting from 2008 to 2011 was horrible, but since 2012 we've been drafting well

2012: Galchenyuk, Hudon
2013: McCarron, De la Rose, Lehkonen, Andrighetto, Reway
2014: Scherbak, Lernout, Audette, Evans
2015: Juulsen, Vejdemo (looks good this year), Bourque, Addison
2016: Sergachev, Bitten, Mete. Hm: Pezzetta has look good this year
2017: Too early to tell, but Poehling seems like a steal so far

Stop including 2008. He had nothing to draft with.

 

[Habs]

Timmins is a smug little man that needs to gtfo along with the rest of the bozos behind the scenes. Time for a change from Bergevin, through scouting, enough is enough.

 

[Whitesnake]

Stop including 2008. He had nothing to draft with.

How does that work though? Let's excuse him 'cause he had not a lot to work with...but let's applaud him if he has plenty to work with? So you don't lose in that business? He had not a lot to work with and yet, he STILL could have added Jimmy Hayes, Brendan Holtby, TJ Brodie, Gustav Nyquist, Matt Calvert, Matt Martin, Jared Spurgeon, Cam Atkinson, Wingels etc...to our list of prospects. Strangely, he was able to add Gallagher in 2010 despite not having a lot of picks....but we should excuse him with 2008? No idea why....

The only point is that "you can draft quantity if you don't have a quantity of picks". Absolutely true. But you can't draft quality? Yep, you have less chances to get one...but still have some.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How does that work though? Let's excuse him 'cause he had not a lot to work with...but let's applaud him if he has plenty to work with? So you don't lose in that business? He had not a lot to work with and yet, he STILL could have added Jimmy Hayes, Brendan Holtby, TJ Brodie, Gustav Nyquist, Matt Calvert, Matt Martin, Jared Spurgeon, Cam Atkinson, Wingels etc...to our list of prospects. Strangely, he was able to add Gallagher in 2010 despite not having a lot of picks....but we should excuse him with 2008? No idea why....

The only point is that "you can draft quantity if you don't have a quantity of picks". Absolutely true. But you can't draft quality? Yep, you have less chances to get one...but still have some.

Was 2008 a terrible draft for him? Or did he have nothing to work with?

I'm not going to rip on a guy when his first pick is something like 55th overall... He doesn't come away with anything? Okay. But it's not a terrible draft for him personally, he simply didn't have anything to work with.

 

[Whitesnake]

Was 2008 a terrible draft for him? Or did he have nothing to work with?

I'm not going to rip on a guy when his first pick is something like 55th overall... He doesn't come away with anything? Okay. But it's not a terrible draft for him personally, he simply didn't have anything to work with.

It was a bad draft as there were players to pick when he picked them and he didn't. So it's STILL a bad draft. But maybe not at the top of it because of the lack of picks. Still...how do you judge 2013 then? Tons of great picks.....but an awful overall draft. Geez chances are there were more guys to pick when it was out turn to talk in 2008 than it was for any picks in 2013.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It was a bad draft as there were players to pick when he picked them and he didn't. So it's STILL a bad draft. But maybe not at the top of it because of the lack of picks. Still...how do you judge 2013 then? Tons of great picks.....but an awful overall draft. Geez chances are there were more guys to pick when it was out turn to talk in 2008 than it was for any picks in 2013.

I don't classify 2008 as a bad draft. If you want to, go ahead... Makes no sense to do that in my mind though. I simply discount that season from his record.

 

[cphabs]

Timmins knew about Andrei's condition before the draft, but AK was also mis-handled in terms of development.

The Montreal's roadway to destruction of offensive talent:
1) Bring the guys up a bit too soon for their first callup.
2) They often do well, at that point, fresh from their Junior level confidence.
3) Ask them to become better defensively : production goes down.
4) Downgrade the player back to the AHL.
5) Send offensive talent on the 3rd line in the AHL for 30 games to "improve the defensive side of this game" with 2 players who have no business playing with said offensive talent.
6) Offensive talent loses overall confidence.
7) Offensive talent start looking for solution outside of his toolbox.
8) Offensive talent loses overall confidence.
9) Habs call back said offensive talent because their mature offensive talent are failing as they have also gone through 1-8)
10) Offensive talent don't do so well, is employed on the 3rd line on a non-offensive role.
11) ??? what is going why is he not scoring.
12) Repeat 4.
13) Fans complain about all this, the pressure is bigger.
14) Repeat 5-11
15) Offensive player get traded at a small value.

Fantastic! Thank you! I mean it!

 

[Beige Van]

Mete's playing on our first pair and you have Chucky, Lehkonen and Hudon in your top 9.

And no, we will not be bad again, the average of developed players would still be decent compared to the rest of the league.

I want to know who Tampa Bay's head of amateur scouting is. I would take Kucherov over every post 2007 pick combined.

 

[Belial]

I want to know who Tampa Bay's head of amateur scouting is. I would take Kucherov over every post 2007 pick combined.

They had one amazing year in 2011 where they drafted Kucherov, Palat and Namestnikov apart that their draft is nothing special although it's too early to judge the last couple of years where they had a ton of picks. Point in the third round looks good too.

 

[Chili]

They had one amazing year in 2011 where they drafted Kucherov, Palat and Namestnikov apart that their draft is nothing special although it's too early to judge the last couple of years where they had a ton of picks. Point in the third round looks good too.

7 of 8 of their top scorers were drafted or signed originally by them as well as 8 others on their current roster. They also had 5 forwards on Team Canada WJC team last year.

They are built through the draft.

 

[Belial]

7 of 8 of their top scorers were drafted or signed originally by them as well as 8 others on their current roster. They also had 5 forwards on Team Canada WJC team last year.

They are built through the draft.

I'm not saying they're not, but picking Stamkos first overall and Hedman second overall is not some sort of super achievement.

They have no one else from those two drafts (08/09) and no player from the 2010 draft.

 

[Giacomo]

Bittems production has been a huge disappointment for me, imo.

he's been selected to team ohl

 

[montreal]

How does that work though? Let's excuse him 'cause he had not a lot to work with...but let's applaud him if he has plenty to work with? So you don't lose in that business? He had not a lot to work with and yet, he STILL could have added Jimmy Hayes, Brendan Holtby, TJ Brodie, Gustav Nyquist, Matt Calvert, Matt Martin, Jared Spurgeon, Cam Atkinson, Wingels etc...to our list of prospects. Strangely, he was able to add Gallagher in 2010 despite not having a lot of picks....but we should excuse him with 2008? No idea why....

The only point is that "you can draft quantity if you don't have a quantity of picks". Absolutely true. But you can't draft quality? Yep, you have less chances to get one...but still have some.

'08 was a bad draft for sure, to me you have to lower expectations when you go into a draft with the least amount of picks since '67. Then lower them more when you don't have a single pick in the top 55. That said he missed the mark on Kristo, the kid was looking like a very good pick when he was 2nd in the NCAA in scoring and every scout is going to have their fair share of misses. Collberg like picks, guys that look really good at 16/17 but just peak.

'08 and '09 just suck for Timmins and the Habs. But having a bad year or two isn't unheard of for a scout especially after his monster '07 draft you are bound to have a stinker or two just stings much more when they are back to back. Plus some of that is on the development and management side as Leblanc was handled poorly. that said Timmins has to take the hit on Kristo and Leblanc, these are the picks he should be hitting on and missed on.

I cut him some slack for Tinordi. I mean in 2010 who would have thought that 6'6 blueliners would fall out of favor for PMD's. Maybe they should have read the tea leaves better to know that the NHL was quickly changing from the fighting/big hits etc.. to much more a speed game.

In the end when you have 3 drafts in a row and all you have is Gallagher plus 160+ NHL games from Dumont/Tinordi/Leblanc that sucks no matter how we look at it. Of course part of the problem is the lack of picks in '08 and '10 and having only 3 picks in the top 112. For someone that had impressive drafts in the past, for me I cut him some slack when I take everything into context.

Since then he started to get back on track. Yes he still had his fair share of misses, but since then only 1 draft in '15 had less then 6 picks. We had more top 50 picks as clearly the run from '08 to '11 was thin on picks and top 50 picks. I know that even though that was the case he should have still hit on more since most of the picks did nothing outside Gallagher and Beaulieu. I would add Nygren as it was a heck of a pick, he's clearly very skilled since he's ripped up the SHL and now the NLA so far. Just sucks that he got injured or he could be in the NHL right now.

The question becomes what happens from 2012 on. Still very much in the air. '12 was supposed to be a good draft, he had the picks and 4 top 64 picks and blew it. That's the one that really makes him look bad. Now what happens from '13, '14, '16, and '17 drafts. It's at least showing much more promise then '12 but we'll have to see how it turns out. He's got to hit on that '13 draft and '14 is looking like it could surprise depending on how several things turn out. '16/'17 could be very interesting. Just think of what could have been,

Mete Weber
Markov Sergachev

Having Weber/Markov mentor Mete/Sergachev would have been a great situation for both and could have set us up on our blueline for years with hopefully having Juulsen stepping in to replace Petry since he can be traded after this season when his NMC ends and turns into a 15 team no trade list. Of course it means no JD and major issues at forward. But that's not on Timmins. Just like having a McDonagh/Subban pairing for years to come isn't on him. But management sure has shot Timmins in the foot a few times with their asset management and poor choices on the development side.