Value of: Trading Draisaitl

[McFlyingV]

I just think people have a difficult time differentiating between "impacted by playing with McDavid" and "carried by McDavid". Playing with McDavid is going to boost any player's numbers, not just Draisaitl's. Maybe Draisaitl is "just" a 90 point guy with average top line linemates instead of McDavid. But people acting like that's the reason he's scoring 50 goals and 100 points rather than 20 goals and 50 points is when it becomes silly.

I also think the problem is people are using faulty reference points. As you said, any ice time away from McDavid usually involves playing with two bad wingers. It's not like a Marner situation, where even if you took him away from Tavares he's still playing with Matthews or even Kadri the past year. It would be like going from Tavares to Gauthier/old man Spezza.

Agreed entirely. And the funny thing is maybe Draisaitl is only an 85-90 point player with average 1st line wingers, but does anyone think guys like Mackinnon, Rantanen, Marchand, Pastrnak etc. are any different? I can pretty much guarantee that any of those players would see drop offs if they played with average 1st line linemates instead of other star players.

 

[McFlyingV]

McDavid does produce without Draisitle, he had 100 point season every year except the first year due to injury. I think Draisitle is a very good player but being one of the best in the world is a stretch. He's a center playing the wing, that speaks volumes.

On the flip side, which of those 100 point seasons did McDavid achieve without Draisaitl on his wing?

 

[Homesick]

On the flip side, which of those 100 point seasons did McDavid achieve without Draisaitl on his wing?

And Draisaitl plays wing but also leads the Oilers in faceoffs taken the past two seasons. Do they call "times" after the faceoff so he can switch back to wing?
They both play a hybrid game

 

[yeaher]

On the flip side, which of those 100 point seasons did McDavid achieve without Draisaitl on his wing?

Most likely the first and every season after they trade Draisaitl that would happen. Guy is the best player in hockey.

 

[Torontoborn]

Would you trade Matthews for that package?

Nope but I think Matthews is and will be better.

 

[King1s]

Nope but I think Matthews is and will be better.

Auston 'can't crack 80 pts' Mattwhos is better than Draisaitl?

 

[Torontoborn]

Auston 'can't crack 80 pts' Mattwhos is better than Draisaitl?

Ahhh so we are just looking at point production. Look at what Auston has done in games played versus what Draisitl has done plus take a look who Auston has played with vs Draisitl. Give Auston McDavid and he will blow Draisitl out of the water.

 

[King1s]

Ahhh so we are just looking at point production. Look at what Auston has done in games played versus what Draisitl has done plus take a look who Auston has played with vs Draisitl. Give Auston McDavid and he will blow Draisitl out of the water.

Last season:

Draisaitl 105 points
Matthews 73 points

This season:

Draisaitl 34 points
Matthews 25 points (on pace for breaking that 80pts!)

139 vs 98.

 

[Torontoborn]

Last season:

Draisaitl 105 points
Matthews 73 points

This season:

Draisaitl 34 points
Matthews 25 points (on pace for breaking that 80pts!)

139 vs 98.

You are looking at one season, bravo good research.
Draisitl has McDavid
Matthews had Kap and Johnsson

 

[Skolman]

Ahhh so we are just looking at point production. Look at what Auston has done in games played versus what Draisitl has done plus take a look who Auston has played with vs Draisitl. Give Auston McDavid and he will blow Draisitl out of the water.

What do you think Matthews numbers would be playing with McDavid?

 

[Fourier]

You are looking at one season, bravo good research.
Draisitl has McDavid
Matthews had Kap and Johnsson

Here is Matthews scoring log for this year. The myth that he is carrying around a bunch of plugs is ridiculous.

1	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	08:02	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Morgan Rielly
2	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	14:50	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and John Tavares
3	2019-10-04	TOR	@	CBJ	3	14:04	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Mitch Marner
4	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	1	05:57	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci
5	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	3	18:45	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Mitch Marner
6	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	04:19	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner
7	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	17:56	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Jake Muzzin and William Nylander
8	2019-10-15	TOR		MIN	2	13:05	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and Morgan Rielly
9	2019-10-19	TOR		BOS	OT	03:54	EV	Goal by Morgan Rielly, assisted by Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews
10	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	1	19:21	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Jake Muzzin
11	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	2	19:43	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Auston Matthews
12	2019-10-25	TOR		SJS	3	19:30	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner
13	2019-10-26	TOR	@	MTL	2	05:52	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Morgan Rielly
14	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	1	00:40	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews
15	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	2	19:27	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Morgan Rielly
16	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	3	01:46	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Mitch Marner
17	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	12:36	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Andreas Johnsson
18	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	13:06	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
19	2019-11-07	TOR		VEG	3	08:14	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by John Tavares and Morgan Rielly
20	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	2	10:11	EV	Goal by Travis Dermott, assisted by William Nylander and Auston Matthews
Rk	Date	Tm	Opp	P	Time	Description
21	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	3	03:58	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
22	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	1	16:29	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
23	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	02:27	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
24	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	12:41	PP	Goal by John Tavares, assisted by Auston Matthews
25	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	19:18	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by John Tavares and Auston Matthews

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There is exactly one point in that list that does not also involve one of Marner, Tavares, Nylander or Rielly. Seven of his points involve two of these 4.

 

[48g90a138pts]

Nobody is trading the league leader in points. This thread has taken its course. Time to lock it up.

 

[Oil Dood]

Here is Matthews scoring log for this year. The myth that he is carrying around a bunch of plugs is ridiculous.

1	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	08:02	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Morgan Rielly
2	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	14:50	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and John Tavares
3	2019-10-04	TOR	@	CBJ	3	14:04	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Mitch Marner
4	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	1	05:57	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci
5	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	3	18:45	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Mitch Marner
6	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	04:19	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner
7	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	17:56	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Jake Muzzin and William Nylander
8	2019-10-15	TOR		MIN	2	13:05	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and Morgan Rielly
9	2019-10-19	TOR		BOS	OT	03:54	EV	Goal by Morgan Rielly, assisted by Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews
10	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	1	19:21	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Jake Muzzin
11	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	2	19:43	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Auston Matthews
12	2019-10-25	TOR		SJS	3	19:30	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner
13	2019-10-26	TOR	@	MTL	2	05:52	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Morgan Rielly
14	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	1	00:40	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews
15	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	2	19:27	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Morgan Rielly
16	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	3	01:46	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Mitch Marner
17	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	12:36	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Andreas Johnsson
18	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	13:06	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
19	2019-11-07	TOR		VEG	3	08:14	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by John Tavares and Morgan Rielly
20	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	2	10:11	EV	Goal by Travis Dermott, assisted by William Nylander and Auston Matthews
Rk	Date	Tm	Opp	P	Time	Description
21	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	3	03:58	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
22	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	1	16:29	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
23	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	02:27	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
24	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	12:41	PP	Goal by John Tavares, assisted by Auston Matthews
25	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	19:18	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by John Tavares and Auston Matthews

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There is exactly one point in that list that does not also involve one of Marner, Tavares, Nylander or Rielly. Seevn of his points involve two of these 4.

I wonder how many teams would trade their best player one for one for Matthews? I would not even trade our 2nd best player straight up for him. Not that Matthews is a bad player but the Toronto media has pumped up a guy that to me would be 2nd best on a lot of teams(in some cases 3rd).

 

[TheUltimateOiler]

Draisaitl won't be traded. Not for Mathews or random prospects.

The debate that Mathews is better than Draisaitl is over. It ended last year. Are you leafs fans waiting for one year when Mathews passes Leon in points for a season?
Do you really think that will make him a better player because of it ?

 

[Fourier]

I wonder how many teams would trade their best player one for one for Matthews? I would not even trade our 2nd best player straight up for him. Not that Matthews is a bad player but the Toronto media has pumped up a guy that to me would be 2nd best on a lot of teams(in some cases 3rd).

I actually have no issue with a Leaf fan picking Matthews over Draisaitl. If you don't watch Leon that much it is really easy to believe that his success is tied to McDavid. But for me the issue seems to be that there are two states in the NHL. 1) You play with McDavid and 2) you don't. And from there if you are in state 1) your accomplishments are diminished. If you are in state 2) anything you do is more significant because you are not in state 1.

The reality is that if the season ended today there is no question who the Oilers MVP would be. Whether or not that will be ture at the end of the year is to be determined, as McDavid appears to be starting to return to his old self. But Leon's year so far has been phenomenal. And not just because of his point production.

 

[3074326]

Ahhh so we are just looking at point production. Look at what Auston has done in games played versus what Draisitl has done plus take a look who Auston has played with vs Draisitl. Give Auston McDavid and he will blow Draisitl out of the water.

Toronto has a significantly better roster. Draisaitl has still gotten further in the playoffs. He's also blown away Matthews' point totals. It's hilarious that you're like "well if you ignore production, Matthews is better." That doesn't make any sense.

 

[McFlash97]

Nope but I think Matthews is and will be better.

Hes not though.


Ouch

 

[Darkwinter]

Ahhh so we are just looking at point production. Look at what Auston has done in games played versus what Draisitl has done plus take a look who Auston has played with vs Draisitl. Give Auston McDavid and he will blow Draisitl out of the water.

have you even watch dri ?I must say the THC in Toronto must be as good as what you can get in Amsterdam cause some of the comments coming from leaf fans have proven my point ......EVERYONE IS STONED 24-7 IN TORONTO .

 

[Unspecified]

Well then Edmonton's roster for the foreseeable future can be:

Draisaitl
McDavid
spare
Neal
spare
Yamamoto
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare

 

[oilerbear]

In NHL history:
23 yr old Forwards With 50G and 105 PT
Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Jags
Lafleur
Kurri
Barber
Moldilny
Turgeon
Goulet
Roe nick
Ovechkin
Draisaitl

A player who is thought of as a top 5 passer in the game.

Who trained himself to position and target open space in the net end of 2017-2018
Shifting his personal shooting avg ( each player has their own - no Common avg) from 13.7% first 5 seasons (14-15 to 17-18)
To
21.9% last 2 seasons (18-19 to 19-20)

The new Career shooting % ( density) and shot/gm ( volume) suggests a new season goal mass.
Greater than 50 G.

He is on pace to have his second 50+G 105+ pt season.

 

[GOilers88]

You are looking at one season, bravo good research.
Draisitl has McDavid
Matthews had Kap and Johnsson

Interestingly enough, the biggest knock on Draisaitl as a center is that he can't produce elite numbers with any average or below average wingers. According to a portion of HF I mean.

I guess that means Matthews isn't good enough to be a "1C" either, eh? Poor Edmonton and Toronto, with their lack of good center depth.

 

[KarmaPolice]

What do you think Matthews numbers would be playing with McDavid?

90+ goals, obviously.

 

[oilerbear]

Well then Edmonton's roster for the foreseeable future can be:

Draisaitl
McDavid
spare
Neal
spare
Yamamoto
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare
spare

This kind of analysis is a failure to look at an individual player performance level by
Phase ( Even, PP, PK)
And
situation ( Comp, team, Zone start - FO and bench)

Orgs are measured by the ability to compete for championships. The final 4 teams. 2 Conf champs, 1 Cup champ.
27 teams fail to compete for a championship.

7 of every 8 final 4 team is a top GA team.
Teams can win a Cup as avbottom 3 GF team.

Most fans have been trained by Toronto media to look at Offence of players.

when I created my Cup Core roster theory ( looking at 25 yr of final 4 teams) the driver was the 2D -1G defence of my High danger theory area ( homeplate)

You want:
1. Open HD sh def sys coach
Tipett

2. Top 15 + ve open shot save % goalie
Smith

3. 3+ ( 4 last 5 yr) top60 open HD shot def dmen.
Larsson
Russell
Benning

4. Tough DZ FO FWD specialists to allow off fwds high off zone starts
Sheahan 21.05%
Russell 31.82%
Khaira 35.19%
Archibald 37.04%


5. Top PKGA/60 forwards
RNH #8 1.66
Archibald #16 2.50
Khaira #21 3.71
Draisaitl #40 4.49
Granlund #45 5.02
Sheahan #50 5.96

To ignore GA def the critical driver of competing for a championship.
To talk about GF as though it is most critical winning championships. ( bottom 3 GF teams win cups)
Shows a complete lack of understanding what wins championships.

 

[McFlyingV]

Here is Matthews scoring log for this year. The myth that he is carrying around a bunch of plugs is ridiculous.

1	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	08:02	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Morgan Rielly
2	2019-10-02	TOR		OTT	2	14:50	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and John Tavares
3	2019-10-04	TOR	@	CBJ	3	14:04	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Mitch Marner
4	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	1	05:57	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Morgan Rielly and Cody Ceci
5	2019-10-05	TOR		MTL	3	18:45	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Mitch Marner
6	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	04:19	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner
7	2019-10-10	TOR		TBL	1	17:56	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Jake Muzzin and William Nylander
8	2019-10-15	TOR		MIN	2	13:05	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner and Morgan Rielly
9	2019-10-19	TOR		BOS	OT	03:54	EV	Goal by Morgan Rielly, assisted by Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews
10	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	1	19:21	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Jake Muzzin
11	2019-10-21	TOR		CBJ	2	19:43	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Andreas Johnsson and Auston Matthews
12	2019-10-25	TOR		SJS	3	19:30	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Mitch Marner
13	2019-10-26	TOR	@	MTL	2	05:52	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews and Morgan Rielly
14	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	1	00:40	EV	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by Auston Matthews
15	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	2	19:27	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by Tyson Barrie and Morgan Rielly
16	2019-10-29	TOR		WSH	3	01:46	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Mitch Marner
17	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	12:36	EV	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by William Nylander and Andreas Johnsson
18	2019-11-05	TOR		LAK	3	13:06	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
19	2019-11-07	TOR		VEG	3	08:14	PP	Goal by Auston Matthews, assisted by John Tavares and Morgan Rielly
20	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	2	10:11	EV	Goal by Travis Dermott, assisted by William Nylander and Auston Matthews
Rk	Date	Tm	Opp	P	Time	Description
21	2019-11-09	TOR		PHI	3	03:58	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews and Justin Holl
22	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	1	16:29	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
23	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	02:27	EV	Goal by William Nylander, assisted by Auston Matthews
24	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	12:41	PP	Goal by John Tavares, assisted by Auston Matthews
25	2019-11-10	TOR	@	CHI	3	19:18	PP	Goal by Andreas Johnsson, assisted by John Tavares and Auston Matthews

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There is exactly one point in that list that does not also involve one of Marner, Tavares, Nylander or Rielly. Seven of his points involve two of these 4.

Phenomenal post.

 

[McFlyingV]

What do you think Matthews numbers would be playing with McDavid?

The funny thing about this post is that Draisaitl is currently outscoring McDavid. So if we give Matthews a McDavid does he outscore McDavid too? Looks like we're back to the old "Is Matthews > McDavid?" beginning of November debate.