Confirmed Trade: [TOR/VAN] Josh Leivo for Michael Carcone

[Red Piller]

People need to leave Dubas alone. Babcock would not play him. At some point you need to let a player go and give him a chance.

It's ironic, because on the mainboards there was once a thread destoying the Leafs because they were ruining Frank Corrado by not playing him Many were Canuck fans as the Leafs picked him up on waivers from them.

[MOD]

Is dubas in charge or is Mike Babcock? Does your coach have more power than your GM? I’ll remember this excuse next time ol Jimmy loses a trade. “Jim was being a nice guy”

 

[Red Piller]

Funny some Canuck fan raving about how they got one over on Kyle. Meanwhile he knew he wasn't getting full value before he picked up the phone. Nice he full filled his promise and got a nice home for Leivo... Their management have been know to make some bad moves especially with starting goalies, does Luongo, Schneider and Lack ring a bell?

Eddie Lack was a nothing goaltender, we got Horvat for Cory and Luongo had a bad contract and only wanted to play in Florida. Also, different management group. One of which is in Toronto’s front office.

 

[LeafFever]

Is dubas in charge or is Mike Babcock? Does your coach have more power than your GM? I’ll remember this excuse next time ol Jimmy loses a trade. “Jim was being a nice guy”

The coach decides who plays. This is standard in the NHL.

Dubas already showed when given the chance, he takes Babcock's favourites away by letting guys like Komorov and Polak go.

So when it comes to Corrado Leafs were destroying him, but made a massive error letting a young player go who wanted to leave to play more.

 

[CraigBillington]

I feel like “ironic” has become a fun buzzword the last decade or so but so many people use it incorrectly.

I blame Alanis Morissette

 

[gabeliscious]

Such humility with vancouver fans. Just say thank you and enjoy. This was not a fleecing, it was a present.

 

[SnarkAttack]

It should have been apparent to everyone here. I seriously questioned many who stated San Jose is better than Toronto and never got a straight answer why.(San Jose had worse stats LAST season).

Toronto was his destination because it was his best shot at a cup.

To be fair, SJ is definitely underperforming and Toronto overperforming according to many advanced stats. Martin Jones has gone from average goalie to amazingly bad, and Vlasic/Braun have gone from solid defensive pairing to dumpster fire. I mean, Jones is 14-8 with a sub .900 save percentage.

By the way, the reasons many gave were:
1) Good Defense- Turns out to have been wrong, because without Karlsson the defense would be atrocious. No clue what is wrong with Vlasic.
2) Strong supporting cast- The team was a definite playoff team, but lacked a star center, so he would have fit in to that spot perfectly.
3)Toronto was relying on lots of young players to make jumps that don't always happen to be considered a serious cup contender.

It's definitely looking like Toronto is better than San Jose right now, but I still can't blame anyone who thought SJ would have been a better landing spot for Tavares to win this year. All of those points were reasonable, and ones that people made.

 

[ToDavid]

Do you know what hindsight is? The months after he signed with Toronto it become more and more apparent that Toronto was always his destination.

What exactly has happened to make it more apparent? Any examples?

Every report from anyone who is anyone has suggested he agonized over the decision and Dubas’ pitch of the Leaf’s long term plan was a huge part of it.

 

[LeafFever]

What exactly has happened to make it more apparent? Any examples?

Every report from anyone who is anyone has suggested he agonized over the decision and Dubas’ pitch of the Leaf’s long term plan was a huge part of it.

Yup. In fact both Kyle and John mentioned he did not decide it was the Leafs until late Friday. He was seriously considering the Islanders the night before July 1st.

 

[LeafFever]

To be fair, SJ is definitely underperforming and Toronto overperforming according to many advanced stats. Martin Jones has gone from average goalie to amazingly bad, and Vlasic/Braun have gone from solid defensive pairing to dumpster fire. I mean, Jones is 14-8 with a sub .900 save percentage.

By the way, the reasons many gave were:
1) Good Defense- Turns out to have been wrong, because without Karlsson the defense would be atrocious. No clue what is wrong with Vlasic.
2) Strong supporting cast- The team was a definite playoff team, but lacked a star center, so he would have fit in to that spot perfectly.
3)Toronto was relying on lots of young players to make jumps that don't always happen to be considered a serious cup contender.

It's definitely looking like Toronto is better than San Jose right now, but I still can't blame anyone who thought SJ would have been a better landing spot for Tavares to win this year. All of those points were reasonable, and ones that people made.

What advanced stats? Toronto is second in goal diff. San Jose had less points last year than the Leafs did. No one should have expected Toronto to regress.

It was flawed logic due to people not wanting to accept Leaf could be a contender.

 

[Leaf Fans]

What exactly has happened to make it more apparent? Any examples?

Every report from anyone who is anyone has suggested he agonized over the decision and Dubas’ pitch of the Leaf’s long term plan was a huge part of it.

Of course, that is how it became apparent. always is being used as the time after he made his decision.

 

[BHD]

Any more users making a concerted effort to alienate fanbases will be infracted.

 

[SnarkAttack]

What advanced stats? Toronto is second in goal diff. San Jose had less points last year than the Leafs did. No one should have expected Toronto to regress.

It was flawed logic due to people not wanting to accept Leaf could be a contender.

Not everyone is out to get the Leafs. Some just thought that the Sharks were a team built around having a guy like Tavares, without actually having that guy. Just because people didn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong. Anyways, you can never actually be proven right or wrong as we never had the opposite (Tavares signing with the Sharks) happen to see how it would have turned out, so how about just be happy that your team got Tavares and is looking good?

Anyway, neither of those is an advanced stat. Here's one, for example. There are more, feel free to find them. They're imperfect, as they're meant to be predictive, so I'm not saying the Sharks will be better than they are, or the Leafs will be worse than they are. There are just some stats saying it's a possibility.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Nope, that isn’t irony. The leafs were expected to be better than the canucks even after them acquiring Leivo basically for free.

You really have no idea what irony is, do you ?

Your point is really why it's so ironic...

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

What other word would you use to describe Carcone?

The Leafs couldn’t fit Leivo into the lineup, Carcone is a Leivo clone but 3 years behind in age.

That makes it so the Leafs get a push on “fitting” Leivo into the lineup.

I’m assuming you’re trying to make a point about how Leivo is NHL and Carcone is AHL...

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner.

Carcone plays nothing like Leivo, is 5 inches shorter and has a far worse pedigree. I've never seen any analyst suggest he's likely to play in the NHL.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Carcone plays nothing like Leivo, is 5 inches shorter and has a far worse pedigree. I've never seen any analyst suggest he's likely to play in the NHL.

Hopefully, you understand that we agree...

 

[meefer]

34 pages of Leivo and Carcone. Diehard fans!

 

[LarKing]

You really have no idea what irony is, do you ?

Your point is really why it's so ironic...

Please explain to me what was ironic about the original post I quoted. What I said was that he used it incorrectly.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Eddie Lack was a nothing goaltender, we got Horvat for Cory and Luongo had a bad contract and only wanted to play in Florida. Also, different management group. One of which is in Toronto’s front office.

Yeah we shouldn’t have fired Gilman. I’ll give Benning and co credit for Horvat, but the veteran signings and Dorsett and Sbisa have been awful. Gilman’s last contact was Tanev IIRC. Wish I could speak more about how great Gilman was and the firing, but he said if anything was posted online he’d kick my class’ asses.

 

[StroShow]

Such humility with vancouver fans. Just say thank you and enjoy. This was not a fleecing, it was a present.

love him in Vancouver , but yeah why all this talk about fleecing. Leivo is a good player who was never going to get a fair opportunity in toronto they just have too much talent in that top 9. It was a great trade for Vancouver, but I'm pretty sure Dubas isn't losing any sleep over it.

 

[Balthazar]

34 pages of Leivo and Carcone. Diehard fans!

That's a polite way to describe the current situation.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Yeah we shouldn’t have fired Gilman. I’ll give Benning and co credit for Horvat, but the veteran signings and Dorsett and Sbisa have been awful. Gilman’s last contact was Tanev IIRC. Wish I could speak more about how great Gilman was and the firing, but he said if anything was posted online he’d kick my class’ asses.

What credit does benning deserve for Horvat?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

What credit does benning deserve for Horvat?

I meant the Horvat extension. Most of Gilman's value was in contract negotiations and managing the cap.

 

[Scott Stevens]

I meant the Horvat extension. Most of Gilman's value was in contract negotiations and managing the cap.

Oh ok, my bad. I overlooked that.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Not everyone is out to get the Leafs. Some just thought that the Sharks were a team built around having a guy like Tavares, without actually having that guy. Just because people didn't agree with you doesn't make them wrong. Anyways, you can never actually be proven right or wrong as we never had the opposite (Tavares signing with the Sharks) happen to see how it would have turned out, so how about just be happy that your team got Tavares and is looking good?

Anyway, neither of those is an advanced stat. Here's one, for example. There are more, feel free to find them. They're imperfect, as they're meant to be predictive, so I'm not saying the Sharks will be better than they are, or the Leafs will be worse than they are. There are just some stats saying it's a possibility.

This is what, the second or third straight season were the Leafs and Washington has been labeled as getting extremely lucky according to PDO and Corsi. Context needs to be given when looking at this graph, a team like the Caps and TO don't need too many scoring chances in order to pile up on goals, they make the most of their chances due to how skilled their team are which is why this 2 teams always have such a high PDO; when the sample size in question is already at ~200 games, luck isn't the solution to the answer anymore. On the flip side you will have a team like Carolina which for the past 2-3 seasons have been labeled as extremely unlucky by PDO, except it has more to do with the fact that they're low shooting % has more to do with a lack of skilled shooters and skilled, creative forwards than it does with 2-3 straight years of bad luck.