Proposal: TOR-MTL (Weber)

Discussion in 'Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk' started by WTFMAN99, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. AnishLoomba

    AnishLoomba Registered User

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    It's not as bad for the habs cause they don't have 3 young players that's needs high salary extensions soon and yes it's a favour for the habs because they trade a contract that is huge and gain that much more cap space. It's also allows them to be closer to rebuilding if they wish to do so.
     
  2. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    Montreal isn't lacking for cap space at all and if they're actually rebuilding they need more for Weber.
     
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  3. Magic Man

    Magic Man WWDWD

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    What did the Rags get for McDonagh again?
     
  4. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    Should have traded for McDonagh then.

    Not even going into different circumstances or actual on-ice impact, Montreal doesn't need to or want to move Weber right now. Rangers weren't going to sign McDonagh if they were rebuilding and wanted to get something for him now.
     
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  5. Magic Man

    Magic Man WWDWD

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    Is the plan to rebuild, or are you guys going to try and patch things together for a run?
     
  6. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    Bergevin has been very clear that he's patching things together for a run.

    And even if he wasn't, why would Bergevin trade Weber in the division for an offer that other teams could easily beat.
     
  7. Magic Man

    Magic Man WWDWD

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    Fair enough, I guess he's trying to save his own ass. Unless you get some major upgrades this off-season I don't think it's possible. Seems like a waste of a year. You could move Weber and Patches for a big haul, bottom out again and get a good pick.

    Not to point to McDonagh again, but his return looks pretty similar to some that have been offered in here. The Leafs traded a prime Kessel for 1st, Kapanen and Harrington, while retaining 1.2M per year for the duration. Doesn't look that great. But, they turned the 1st into Andersen and got to pick 1st overall and get Auston Matthews. If the Leafs don't make that deal they're still floundering. Kessel went on to win 2 cups and counting. But, the Leafs would never have Matthews if they kept Kessel.
     
  8. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    Except Montreal has to take cap back that isn't much better and they get less salary flexibility. That's not going into who is better between McDonagh and Weber. And the Kessel trade was bad. Its redeeming feature is that Toronto bottomed out and got Matthews. It doesn't look nearly as good if Toronto gets PLD or Puljaarvi. And that required luck as well. Plus lottery odds for dead last have gotten even worse since then. Trading Weber doesn't even guarantee a last overall, which itself is only an ~18.5% chance at drafting 1st. Trading Weber and Pacioretty ("for a big haul", or what hasn't really been offered here) isn't a lock that Montreal bottoms out. Because even with the bad season, Price still has the capability of carrying a team farther than they should.
     
  9. firstemperor

    firstemperor Registered User

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    Zaitsev is certainly not a negative asset at all and likely performs up to his contract (with upside) over the last 2 years despite how vocal the detractors may be.

    Also, all Matthews did was accelerate the rebuild. I think idealistically, you stockpile another high pick, on top of Matthews while guys are still on their ELC but the youngsters were just too good last year.

    Leafs were in a good position to tank another year regardless (in fact, this was probably the expected outcome last year but the youngsters exceeded expectations). No bad contracts, staying the course, and already had Marner/Nylander/Dermott, among others in the pipeline. If we had got a Laine, PLD, Tkachuk, we'd still be in prime position to move forward, whether that be the Nico/Nolan draft, or onwards.

    Selling Weber isn't about lucking out into a Matthews caliber talent, it's about setting up the framework to rebuild and retool assets. It's like Kessel with us, we took a huge loss, and the proposed offers are no where close to as what we ended up receiving for him. Phaneuf was on another level of terrible in terms of his return, but he wasn't that caliber of player anymore when he was moved, most were adamant Kessel was.
     
  10. Jared Dunn

    Jared Dunn Registered User

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    The Kessel trade isn't too bad when you consider they got Freddy out of it though. Despite how good Kessel is, Andersen is probably more valuable to Toronto than Phil ever was.

    This is honestly pretty close to a Shea Weber deal that I would make, but I'm firmly of the belief that the Habs need some big changes.
     
  11. Jared Dunn

    Jared Dunn Registered User

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  12. firstemperor

    firstemperor Registered User

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    At the same time, you can't really tie in those two deals to pump up the Kessel deal. It was a bad return, no question. Even worst when you factor in the fact we had to eat retention for the length of the deal. We also had minimal leverage though with Kessel's NTC so there's an argument both ways.

    With Andersen- It's no secret Ducks sold Andersen at a loss. They couldn't stay under the cap with him, particularly with Gibson there. It was purely a cap-saving move moreso than Andersen vs Gibson, one was cheaper. They simply had no leverage.

    This was after the Martin Jones deal, the goalie market was at an all-time low and the only other team that was in on the market (Chevy) was sitting on his hands at the time.

    So it was a double whammy. Ducks had to sell Andersen. Less than a handful of suitors on the market, and that's being generous. It's like the winger market at this year's TDL where Sabres clearly had to sell Kane at a loss. Just market dynamics.
     
  13. Jared Dunn

    Jared Dunn Registered User

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    As to the bolded, I was actually just talking the other day about how people were calling for Chevy's head for not being active in trading/free agency, and now he's built arguably the deepest team in the NHL from mainly developing their own players including an elite goalie everyone seemed to be down on... I hope Montreal uses them as an example and finally learns trying to rush things will not work.

    And yeah you're right the Kessel deal was bad purely value wise, but it's one of those deals you sort of need to put into context too. Leafs absolutely needed to move on from him and being able to turn that pick into Andersen eases the sting as well
     
  14. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    I've seen plenty of Zaitsev. Not a fan. Keep him.

    Just because Toronto has been masterful in minimizing the impact of their bad contracts, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

    If we're talking about setting up for a rebuild, Montreal has other assets they can trade to get future assets. They already have a lottery pick this year, 4 2nds (two being high seconds) and eight of the top 102 picks in the draft. They have cap space. They don't need to trade Weber to rebuild.
     
  15. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    They didn't get Freddy from the Kessel trade, they got the asset they used to get Freddy. That's not the same thing. One was a bad deal, the other a good one.

    I don't disagree that the Habs need big changes, but trading Weber just to trade Weber doesn't make much sense.
     
  16. jfhabs

    jfhabs Registered User

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    Considering JT Miller and Namestnikov are really close, let's say Namestnikov + Hajek VS JT Miller is close enough.

    That leaves :

    A prospect + 1st 2018 + 2nd 2019 (cond. 1st if they win the cup this year or next) Vs McDonagh for 2 years with good cap
     
  17. firstemperor

    firstemperor Registered User

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    That seems to be the burning question, if Bergevin decides to retool or rebuild or not- as to whether Weber is moved. And based on his presser, it's not going to happen. What I got was that he believed it was an off-year that snowballed, partly due to extraneous circumstances (like the "attitude" of the locker room). I interpreted this as him genuinely thinking that there is a lot of parity in the league and that the Habs are prime to retool and compete again next year. Should say that I don't have an opinion either way on that, simply making an observation.

    And yea, it's a good year to have multiple picks in the first 2 rounds and I'm well aware about the picks the Habs have, it will be an important year for Timmins to make use of them.

    All I was doing in that post is trying to correct this faulty logic that there is an inherent difference between lucking out into a Matthews caliber talent- despite having the proper process measures in place before then to succeed (i.e. the framework of the rebuild, with Marner/Nylander/Dermott already in the pipeline). It has moreso to do with setting yourself up for success if your objective is ultimately to rebuild. We would have been on the right course whether we got Matthews, or a PLD/Tkachuk/Keller, etc. Certainly, Leafs were fortunate to luck out though.
     
  18. Captain Wolverine

    Captain Wolverine Registered User

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    I'm pretty sure I wasn't using drafting Matthews to justify the Kessel trade. But the Kessel trade wasn't about the process. Toronto wasn't a play-off threat even with Kessel in 2015/2016. Trading Kessel was about reducing the chance to win games the most (as he was Toronto's best player), getting future pieces, managing the future cap and signalling that his era of the Leafs were over. Weber isn't Montreal's best player, the futures offered don't help Montreal much, Weber's back-diving contract offers more flexibility than Kessel's did and Weber has been in Montreal for two seasons. This is Price's team, not Weber's.

    My point was not of luck vs process, it was that the trade is bad for Montreal. The only way trading Weber actually leads to the process is if Montreal gets a piece or pieces that they can build around.
     
  19. jklimmy

    jklimmy Registered User

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    No thanks to the OP. Give it a few years, our team is still young. We need to grow before we start trading pieces away. I don’t think Weber (with the loss of Kap + Z) would help our team that much in the playoffs.
     
  20. 666

    666 Registered User

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    There's a lot wrong with this post.

    1) The Leafs finished with 68 points WITH Kessel and Phaneuf. The next season where they finished last they had 69 points. They could have tanked with Kessel.

    2) The Leafs had two picks in a row and used the one from the Kessel deal for Andersen. They could have gotten Andersen without trading Kessel.

    The Leafs could easily have had Kessel, Andersen and Matthews.
     
  21. drewjenks

    drewjenks Registered User

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    I would ignore anyone saying it's not enough...It's way too much.

    You're paying a 1st + Kapanen + Bracco to upgrade from Zaitsev (4.5m) to Weber (7.9m).

    OK for now....but Zaitsev is 25....In years 4-8 when Weber is 36-40....will he be better than Zaitsev?

    Maybe. Maybe not. But he will be 3.4m more expensive & possibly untradeable.

    -------

    Weber ($6 million cap hit) + Galchenyuk

    for

    Zaitsev + Kapanen + Bracco + Nielsen + conditional 1st (if we re-sign Galchenyuk)
     
  22. KawaYui

    KawaYui Registered User

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    I wouldn't trade Galchenyuk for that garbage, let alone add Weber
     
  23. draft day

    draft day Registered User

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    I would think all Hab fans agree with you.
     
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  24. Eagle Peninsula

    Eagle Peninsula J'espère Jesperi

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    Dude, if you don't want Galchenyuk and Weber, just say it instead of posting these garbage proposals.
     
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  25. 76ftw

    76ftw Registered User

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    Was fine this year on a busted foot.
     

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