Top 4 countries?

Czechboy

Easy schedules rule!
Apr 15, 2018
23,068
19,093
Maybe one day they will win a World Championship Semifinals :laugh:
It's the most insane stat in hockey.. not won a senior event since 1996 despites waves and waves of Junior and NHL stars. You'd think they'd happen to fall upon a Skoda by accident at some point.lol No lack in depth. And they've even, pre covid, sent some strong lineups. I just don't get it.lol
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
17,106
It's the most insane stat in hockey.. not won a senior event since 1996 despites waves and waves of Junior and NHL stars. You'd think they'd happen to fall upon a Skoda by accident at some point.lol No lack in depth. And they've even, pre covid, sent some strong lineups. I just don't get it.lol
I think it's something like 0-11 in WC Semifinals. It's pretty remarkable and funny at this point.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,750
23,694
New York
Opposite, 97-01 age groups were a golden age for the NTDP, what’s come since hasn’t been as good.
Not really. There are two weaker crops of 2002 and 2003, but we’re still talking about Sanderson, Beniers, Hughes, Faber, so how weak can it be? 2004 was as good as any and won the World Juniors only a few months ago. 2005 won the World U18’s last Spring, and had many important contributors to World Juniors gold.

How bad can it be when you won the Calder last year and could win it again this year?
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
18,185
4,599
Malmö, Sweden
Russia is clearly better than Finland, more NHL players and better numbers at every position, and that's with the No Transfer Agreement with the KHL, which the Finnish government no longer permits its players to play in.
Russia have better centers than finns, how?
 
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WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
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Centers is very imporant, russia have an againg Malkin as their best center, then its Barbashev, Namestnikov and Voronkov. Thats a terrible center side. Finns have Hintz, Aho, Rantanen and Barkov.
Center is just a subset of Forward, like breaking down left or right defensemen
 

Garl

Registered User
Oct 7, 2006
8,034
1,019
TOP 4 teams are
Canada, USA, Sweden and Finland

Russia is ahead of Finland in terms of the weight of the names in NHL, but as a team, Finland is more balanced.
 

Hanji

Registered User
Oct 14, 2009
3,164
2,660
Wisconsin
TOP 4 teams are
Canada, USA, Sweden and Finland

Russia is ahead of Finland in terms of the weight of the names in NHL, but as a team, Finland is more balanced.

Sweden is more balanced than Russia. Finland isn't.
Finland cant match Russia’s goaltending, defense and wingers.
Finland’s significant lack of defensive depth would be their undoing over the long-haul at highest levels.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
17,106
If it's just about recent-ish tournament results, Finland would be ahead of Sweden as well. Swedes have been lousy in the last few world championships and last couple olympics, and don't win at the junior level either. So let's be clear, are we talking overall talent levels, how do we power rank hypothetical best on best, or recent team successes?
 

Bijelo

Registered User
Oct 23, 2022
549
124
First Flat
If it's just about recent-ish tournament results, Finland would be ahead of Sweden as well. Swedes have been lousy in the last few world championships and last couple olympics, and don't win at the junior level either.

Sweden regarded have better status in the NHL than Finland has according to me and more.
 

KevinRedkey

12/18/23 and beyond!
Jan 22, 2010
9,833
4,748
There's a consensus top-5.

Narrowing it down to top-4 just seems like a little bit of a pissing match for no real reason. Especially when you consider whoever anyone has at 4th is likely closer to 5th than they are 3rd.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
17,106
Sweden regarded have better status in the NHL than Finland has according to me and more.
I agree but it seems like people are applying different standards. Finland is 2nd in IIHF Rankings for instance. So if that's the team performance standard, then it is what it is. Sweden is surprisingly below Germany in IIHF rankings because their recent performance is not so good. With Russia's position considered technically frozen, it's currently Canada-Finland-Russia-United States-Germany-Sweden-Switzerland-Czechia-Slovakia-Latvia 1-10.
 

Bijelo

Registered User
Oct 23, 2022
549
124
First Flat
I agree but it seems like people are applying different standards. Finland is 2nd in IIHF Rankings for instance. So if that's the team performance standard, then it is what it is. Sweden is surprisingly below Germany in IIHF rankings because their recent performance is not so good. With Russia's position considered technically frozen, it's currently Canada-Finland-Russia-United States-Germany-Sweden-Switzerland-Czechia-Slovakia-Latvia 1-10.

You think Europeans regard European players louder than NHL players Europeans are like that?
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
17,106
You think Europeans regard European players louder than NHL players Europeans are like that?
Not sure I understand.

For what it's worth, I look mostly at strength of overall player pool, which obviously slants highly towards NHL and then the leagues just beneath it (AHL and the big 4 or 5 euro leagues). Actual best-on-best would be useful, but that hasn't happened in a long time or with the current generation of players (making older results irrelevant other than in a historical context), even there I apply a bit of caution as there is a bit of luck involved since you are stuck with the team you have more or less and it is not always a perfect fit (England Football in the mid-2000s is a great example).

To give a hockey example, if a country like Russia were to have something like 5 of the top 15 or so goaltenders in the world, that would speak very highly for their player pool, but the only benefit in a best-on-best tournament is it gives them a lot of potential options to pick from, when the knockout round commences, there's still only one guy in net, so a country like Finland that has one Saros and maybe less certainty behind him isn't at any sort of disadvantage there because they only need one (so long as he's healthy).

Hypo best-on-best isn't useless, but without actual is just educated guesswork.
 
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Bijelo

Registered User
Oct 23, 2022
549
124
First Flat
Not sure I understand.

For what it's worth, I look mostly at strength of overall player pool, which obviously slants highly towards NHL and then the leagues just beneath it (AHL and the big 4 or 5 euro leagues). Actual best-on-best would be useful, but that hasn't happened in a long time or with the current generation of players (making older results irrelevant other than in a historical context), even there I apply a bit of caution as there is a bit of luck involved since you are stuck with the team you have more or less and it is not always a perfect fit (England Football in the mid-2000s is a great example).

Hypo best-on-best isn't useless, but without actual is just educated guesswork.

I consider the NHL the best in the world and the KHL second.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
28,947
17,106
I consider the NHL the best in the world and the KHL second.
Yes of course, but the deeper we go down both the country ranks and the number of players that we look towards within each country, the more we'll want to broaden the scope of leagues that various players play in to expand our search for overall hockey producing talent.
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
18,185
4,599
Malmö, Sweden
If it's just about recent-ish tournament results, Finland would be ahead of Sweden as well. Swedes have been lousy in the last few world championships and last couple olympics, and don't win at the junior level either. So let's be clear, are we talking overall talent levels, how do we power rank hypothetical best on best, or recent team successes?
Sweden did better than Finland in Olympics 2014 and 2016 wcup, the 2 last best on best.

How is it lousy reaching semifinal in 2022 olympics?

Regarding junior level, Sweden won u18 not long ago
 

Hanji

Registered User
Oct 14, 2009
3,164
2,660
Wisconsin
Not sure I understand.

For what it's worth, I look mostly at strength of overall player pool, which obviously slants highly towards NHL and then the leagues just beneath it (AHL and the big 4 or 5 euro leagues). Actual best-on-best would be useful, but that hasn't happened in a long time or with the current generation of players (making older results irrelevant other than in a historical context), even there I apply a bit of caution as there is a bit of luck involved since you are stuck with the team you have more or less and it is not always a perfect fit (England Football in the mid-2000s is a great example).

To give a hockey example, if a country like Russia were to have something like 5 of the top 15 or so goaltenders in the world, that would speak very highly for their player pool, but the only benefit in a best-on-best tournament is it gives them a lot of potential options to pick from, when the knockout round commences, there's still only one guy in net, so a country like Finland that has one Saros and maybe less certainty behind him isn't at any sort of disadvantage there because they only need one (so long as he's healthy).

Hypo best-on-best isn't useless, but without actual is just educated guesswork.

The problem with actual results is that international hockey is a collection of short tournaments; success of which is predicated on short-term cohesion just as much as talent.
It's why IIHF rankings are usually messed up; like Germany currently ranking 5th, ahead of Sweden and Czechia.
 

Eye of Ra

Grandmaster General of the International boards
Nov 15, 2008
18,185
4,599
Malmö, Sweden
The problem with actual results is that international hockey is a collection of short tournaments; success of which is predicated on short-term cohesion just as much as talent.
It's why IIHF rankings are usually messed up; like Germany currently ranking 5th, ahead of Sweden and Czechia.
Swiss has a stronger best on best team than Germany IMO, on paper
 
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erikhamren

Registered User
May 7, 2021
384
149
Sweden
Canada
USA
Finland
Czechia

Maybe if our drafted first rounders could develop into good players we would be either 3 or 4 but they let us down.

Broberg, Lias Andersson, Björnfot and Söderström are the notable ones that should give up on their NHL career. Good job, you let us swedish hockey fans down.

Since 2017 draft to now we pretty much only have 2 star players in the NHL. Pettersson and Dahlin.
 

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