Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (Part 2)

[Nick Hansen]

Are there any players that you think took a hit for the worse after watching them in retrospect? (question to everyone)

I watched a couple of periods between the Philadelphia Flyers and Boston Bruins from their games in the 1974 Stanley Cup finals. Came away really impressed with Clarke, seemed like he was everywhere in both offense and defense, and wondering if I had even seen Esposito...

 

[wetcoast]

I'm a fan (kinda) of pre lockout Selänne. Post lockout I don't think he really added something he hadn't already shown before. He just kept being the same player doing Selänne things.

I like Modano of those players you mentioned. I would probably build my team around him instead of Selänne.

Sure I agree but we are evaluating careers here not building hypothetical teams.

At least that's the way I'm looking at it.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, I understand the 'career value' stand on this. Still not clear to me if we're ranking the top 100 best players or the top 100 greatest players. There certainly is an overlap in most cases but not in every case.

Maybe that explains why someone voted Gretzky 7th?

Scratch that as there is no excuse for that vote plain and simple, hoping it was a typo.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Maybe that explains why someone voted Gretzky 7th?

Scratch that as there is no excuse for that vote plain and simple, hoping it was a typo.

I think it was a vote from someone who takes two-way play and perceived 'completeness' a little too seriously...

 

[DannyGallivan]

Are there any players that you think took a hit for the worse after watching them in retrospect? (question to everyone)

I watched a couple of periods between the Philadelphia Flyers and Boston Bruins from their games in the 1974 Stanley Cup finals. Came away really impressed with Clarke, seemed like he was everywhere in both offense and defense, and wondering if I had even seen Esposito...

Beware the small sample size of any player (although Clarke was great... then again, Espo was even better).

 

[sr edler]

My biggest problem with this list so far probably is Selanne's placement. Gotta be honest, I just don't get it. Concurrent players like Kariya and Bure were better if you ask me.

Kariya didn't have anything mean to his game which (combined with his size I guess) made him a target/relatively easy player to contain/intimidate in the playoffs, much like Bondra. Both Bure and Selänne could hit and throw some cheap stuff. Selänne comes across as the nicest guy ever (to some people, I guess) but he punched Chelios in the face once, attempted to baseball bat Mironov, and threw some hits. Bure's stuff (Churla, Tkachuk, etc.) is pretty well known. Kariya was a lamb.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Kariya didn't have anything mean to his game which (combined with his size I guess) made him a target/relatively easy player to contain/intimidate in the playoffs, much like Bondra. Both Bure and Selänne could hit and throw some cheap stuff. Selänne comes across as the nicest guy ever (to some people, I guess) but he punched Chelios in the face once, attempted to baseball bat Mironov, and threw some hits. Bure's stuff (Churla, Tkachuk, etc.) is pretty well known. Kariya was a lamb.

Kariya didn't have much, if any, support during his prime/peak years. That and head injuries killed what should have been a multiple Hart (or at least top three) finishes. He was better than Selanne, but his career wasn't anywhere near as good.

Bure oozed offensive talent - could skate and score. Reminded me of a Russian Guy Lafleur, only less lateral skating ability and not anywhere as good of a passer. Again, it's the career numbers that separate Selanne from Bure.

 

[ted2019]

Beware the small sample size of any player (although Clarke was great... then again, Espo was even better).

Espo was better when??

 

[wetcoast]

Espo was better when??

In the early and forgotten fantasy pools of the late 1960s.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Espo was better when??

Summit Series.

Maybe the 6 times he was the first team all-star.

 

[The Panther]

I think they stopped being concurrent when Selanne scored another 500 points after the 2005 lockout. He could have retired before the 2001 trade to San Jose and still have had more points than Bure’s entire career.

I think fans' collective memories are too much influenced by recency-bias. Not that Selanne's impressive longevity doesn't count (it does), but his legacy would be much different I think had he retired at the Lock-Out. Up to that point, he was not better than Kariya, and I personally don't think he was better up to 2007 either. But fans remember his last few years, on a Cup contender, and then kind of overrate him. I expect the same thing to happen to Marleau because Toronto.

 

[wetcoast]

I think fans' collective memories are too much influenced by recency-bias. Not that Selanne's impressive longevity doesn't count (it does), but his legacy would be much different I think had he retired at the Lock-Out. Up to that point, he was not better than Kariya, and I personally don't think he was better up to 2007 either. But fans remember his last few years, on a Cup contender, and then kind of overrate him. I expect the same thing to happen to Marleau because Toronto.

The thing is that Selanne was still producing at a very high rate and Marleau isn't doing that and hasn't for a while.

Jagr did the same thing at the end of his career and got very little credit for it here in this project.

 

[MXD]

I think fans' collective memories are too much influenced by recency-bias. Not that Selanne's impressive longevity doesn't count (it does), but his legacy would be much different I think had he retired at the Lock-Out. Up to that point, he was not better than Kariya, and I personally don't think he was better up to 2007 either. But fans remember his last few years, on a Cup contender, and then kind of overrate him. I expect the same thing to happen to Marleau because Toronto.

With all due respect, that's a bit of a No Shit Sherlock comment....

Selanne added more than 550 games after the lockout, and Kariya would also "rank" much higher had he played 550 additionnal games (and had at 3 historically-relevant seasons like Selanne did).

As for Jagr, well, you gotta believe his late-career seasons would've been given more weight than it did, had he been available for voting past Vote 4. It's one thing to be compared to, say, Bernard Geoffrion or Charlie Conacher or Milt Schmidt It's quite another to be compared to Howie Morenz, Sidney Crosby and Maurice Richard.

 

[wetcoast]

With all due respect, that's a bit of a No **** Sherlock comment....

Selanne added more than 550 games after the lockout, and Kariya would also "rank" much higher had he played 550 additionnal games (and had at 3 historically-relevant seasons like Selanne did).

As for Jagr, well, you gotta believe his late-career seasons would've been given more weight than it did, had he been available for voting past Vote 4. It's one thing to be compared to, say, Bernard Geoffrion or Charlie Conacher or Milt Schmidt It's quite another to be compared to Howie Morenz, Sidney Crosby and Maurice Richard.

Why would it matter who Jagr is being compared with?

Whatever he did should be judged accordingly and his late career excellence isnt any different if he was being compare to Wayne Gretzky or Brent Gretzky.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Jagr got lots of mileage out of his last handful of seasons. I think he was barely in the top 30 when we did this project a decade ago, now he's in the top 20. Don't underrate the impact of him rehabilitating his image and off-ice reputation after he came back from the KHL.

 

[MXD]

Jagr got lots of mileage out of his last handful of seasons. I think he was barely in the top 30 when we did this project a decade ago, now he's in the top 20. Don't underrate the impact of him rehabilitating his image and off-ice reputation after he came back from the KHL.

.... He probably should've been in the Top-20 ten years ago (if he is this time), especially if you take out Crosby and Ovechkin out of the picture (which you kindof have to) and, arguably, Lidstrom (who added 4 historically-relevant seasons afterwards and ended up just one spot ahead of Jagr this time). Results can be explained by Voter group + HOH's typical few years lag. And it'S not like Jagr didn't add -- he had at least two historically relevant seasons. They just didn't move the needle that much, because Jagr is on a higher level.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

.... He probably should've been in the Top-20 ten years ago (if he was this time), especially if you take out Crosby and Ovechkin out of the picture. Results can be explained by Voter group + HOH's typical few years lag. And it'S not like Jagr didn't had -- he had at least two historically relevant seasons. They just didn't move the needle that much, because Jagr is on a higher level.

Maybe he was underrated previously, but much of the criticism of Jagr 10 years ago was that in spite of his greatness, he was a moody, self-centered coach killer. He was seen as a lesser player than his on-ice exploits would suggest. I believe that was tempered this time around by him being looked up to as a veteran leader in recent years. A leopard who did indeed change his spots, eventually.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Issue is simple. Staying in the spotlight always benefits the player in such projects.

None of the pre 1967 greats played since the last project. They did not get better or worse but they were repeated targets of attack posts by certain factions. So they dropped in the rankings this time.

 

[wetcoast]

Issue is simple. Staying in the spotlight always benefits the player in such projects.

None of the pre 1967 greats played since the last project. They did not get better or worse but they were repeated targets of attack posts by certain factions. So they dropped in the rankings this time.

Funny post considering Frank Nighbor was 20th this time around right?

Not to mention Firsov being on this list.

Also no players are ever "attacked".

They are put under scrutiny and rightly so as in any comparison of the best 100 players of all time the entire resume of each player needs to be looked at critically to see if that player is indeed worthy of consideration.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Firsov played into the 1970s.

Nighbor reflects the high quality research produced over the last 10 to 15 years.

Attack posts = constant bashing and misrepresentation of specific players by one source.

 

[MXD]

Firsov played into the 1970s.

Nighbor reflects the high quality research produced over the last 10 to 15 years.

Attack posts constant bashing and misrepresentation of specific players by one source.

Eh, the lone player who really fell (as opposed to passed) appears to have been Stan Mikita. And frankly, Mikita is far from the player who was at the wrong end of the biggest amount of nonsense (that would be Doug Harvey or Jacques Plante).

Also, Mikita was passed by two players playing the same position, which is probably non-negligible.

I'd add that it's a whole era who suffered a bit : Esposito fell quite a bit, too. Bobby Orr fell. Frank Mahovlich mightily fell.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Eh, the lone player who really fell (as opposed to passed) appears to have been Stan Mikita. And frankly, Mikita is far from the player who was at the wrong end of the biggest amount of nonsense (that would be Doug Harvey or Jacques Plante).

Also, Mikita was passed by two players playing the same position, which is probably non-negligible.

I'd add that it's a whole era who suffered a bit : Esposito fell quite a bit, too. Bobby Orr fell. Frank Mahovlich mightily fell.

Will look at the "era" factor once Round 1 lists are posted.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Eh, the lone player who really fell (as opposed to passed) appears to have been Stan Mikita. And frankly, Mikita is far from the player who was at the wrong end of the biggest amount of nonsense (that would be Doug Harvey or Jacques Plante).

Also, Mikita was passed by two players playing the same position, which is probably non-negligible.

I'd add that it's a whole era who suffered a bit : Esposito fell quite a bit, too. Bobby Orr fell. Frank Mahovlich mightily fell.

Harvey is understandable simply by the offensive numbers. Simple conclusion is unfortunate.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Harvey is understandable simply by the offensive numbers. Simple conclusion is unfortunate.

Still,Harvey moved up one spot compared to 2008.

 

[wetcoast]

Firsov played into the 1970s.

Nighbor reflects the high quality research produced over the last 10 to 15 years.

Attack posts = constant bashing and misrepresentation of specific players by one source.

Sure and you said post 1967 players right?

Nighbor's position change is due to the a change in how he was and is perceived by a faction here and in the current round another great defensive player and a Hart winner and best player on a top team in the playoffs for nearly a decade is being put aside for lack of offense in entirely different conditions that Nighbor faced.

Which players where misrepresented or bashed?

Perhaps you could cite a source?

There is a difference in disagreeing, we all disagree on different players here and what you are suggesting here.