Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (Part 2)

[sr edler]

It is also worth noting is that Ovechkin didn't "waste" many goals or points in blowouts. Practically every goal or assist he recorded came in medium or high-leverage situations. He didn't have a single three-point game, and scored a goal in 13 games overall, which I suspect is pretty close to the record (a quick check reveals Sakic scored in 14 different games in 1996, Kurri only 9 in 1985, Malkin in 10 in 2009, Crosby 11 in 2009). Maybe some others, but these seemed like the obvious ones to check.

I'm not a big fan of Smythe counting, and certain narratives that surrounds certain awards (also Selke, Hart to a lesser degree). Nieuwendyk has a Smythe, Kopitar none. Ovi had an inspired run, but his center linemate was tap dancing crazy all over the ice setting up guys left and right, zone entering like it was nothing. As for spread out scoring, Bure had a 16 game point streak in 94 and had a point in 22 out of 24 games, scored 3 points in game 7 against Calgary and then pretty much single-handedly mauled Dallas (literally) and Toronto, offensively speaking. He didn't have the fortune though to 1) play with a dominating play driving center that outscored him, and 2) play an expansion team in the finals that ran out of gas/luck.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm not a big fan of Smythe counting, and certain narratives that surrounds certain awards (also Selke, Hart to a lesser degree). Nieuwendyk has a Smythe, Kopitar none. Ovi had an inspired run, but his center linemate was tap dancing crazy all over the ice setting up guys left and right, zone entering like it was nothing. As for spread out scoring, Bure had a 16 game point streak in 94 and had a point in 22 out of 24 games, scored 3 points in game 7 against Calgary and then pretty much single-handedly mauled Dallas (literally) and Toronto, offensively speaking. He didn't have the fortune though to 1) play with a dominating play driving center that outscored him, and 2) play an expansion team in the finals that ran out of gas/luck.

The fact that there was another viable candidate for the Smythe who also had a great playoff run and could have won it doesn't mean Ovechkin's Smythe was weak or something like that, an opinion that isn't exactly uncommon. I think people put too much stock into which player's name actually gets carved onto the trophy when it's all said and done. Whether or not a panel of writers wrote "Ovechkin" or "Kuznetsov" or "Smith-Pelley" on their ballot doesn't change what we all witnessed. And we witnessed, IMO, a superb two month stretch of hockey from Ovechkin that resulted in a championship.

 

[wetcoast]

The fact that there was another viable candidate for the Smythe who also had a great playoff run and could have won it doesn't mean Ovechkin's Smythe was weak or something like that, an opinion that isn't exactly uncommon. I think people put too much stock into which player's name actually gets carved onto the trophy when it's all said and done. Whether or not a panel of writers wrote "Ovechkin" or "Kuznetsov" or "Smith-Pelley" on their ballot doesn't change what we all witnessed. And we witnessed, IMO, a superb two month stretch of hockey from Ovechkin that resulted in a championship.

Agree with all of this and will add that when talking about Conn smythe winners, I'm more interested in looking back and looking at Conn Smythe worthy players for each year.

Just relying on voters isn't very productive unless we test their voting results, ie examine them and see if they came to the right conclusion.

The obvious examples that jump out are Doughty and Kopitar (despite Williams winning the Smythe)

 

[daver]

He's having arguably one of his best seasons ever, pacing for his 2nd highest goal total - on the heels of a strong smythe - on a team arguably still favorite to win the cup this year (they are defending champs after all) where he'd once again be the favorite for the smythe if so - who knows? He can still add a lot to his resume to make his case stronger and get there.

Or - he's 33, odds are this is his last decent season and we should expect a big regression starting next year with age, with very little further movement in career placement.

Both him and Crosby can still rise a lot or very little depending on how things play out.

I don't think you can argue that he is pacing for his 2nd best goalscoring season let alone one of his best seasons ever given the uptick in scoring this year. He is pacing for another solid Rocket win, likely a Top 5 Hart showing, so maybe a Top 5ish season overall.

This would be a middle of the road season for him, clearly behind his Hart/Lindsay win years.

He has done enough in the playoffs to remove it as a weakness but clearly not enough to move the needle against any of his potential Top 10 peers. This likely comes down to whether he does enough to overcome the Rocket's legendary playoff resume or Hull's legendary regular season resume.

Having the strongest argument for GOAT goalscorer (not saying he is there just yet) probably means a Top 10 spot by default.

 

[wetcoast]

I think Ovechkin is on a slow decline but this year does add to his legacy and his top 100 resume.

It will be very interesting to watch how he does in the next 2 years.

 

[ted2019]

I think Ovechkin is on a slow decline but this year does add to his legacy and his top 100 resume.

It will be very interesting to watch how he does in the next 2 years.

Unless Ovechkin gets injured, he could have another 90 to 100 goals by the end of the 20-21 season. That would put him at 740 to 750 goals at the age of 35. Also, where's the slow decline at? Unless he goes on a long cold streak, he will better last seasons numbers in goals/assists/points.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Ovechkin's shots on goal/shot attempts numbers have gone down this season and is being buoyed slightly by a career-high shooting percentage this year. His SOG numbers are comparable to 2017 when he had a wrist injury and was being played less by Barry Trotz, and 2012 when he was playing in Dale Hunter's all-out defensive system. All that despite playing his most TOI since his last Hart year. Statistically speaking, this could be the start of a decline.

From having watched all his games, though, he doesn't look like somebody who's declining. He hasn't looked as good as last season but also looks a lot better than the two seasons prior to that.

 

[ted2019]

Ovechkin's shots on goal/shot attempts numbers have gone down this season and is being buoyed slightly by a career-high shooting percentage this year. His SOG numbers are comparable to 2017 when he had a wrist injury and was being played less by Barry Trotz, and 2012 when he was playing in Dale Hunter's all-out defensive system. All that despite playing his most TOI since his last Hart year. Statistically speaking, this could be the start of a decline.

From having watched all his games, though, he doesn't look like somebody who's declining. He hasn't looked as good as last season but also looks a lot better than the two seasons prior to that.

The team could just be trying to prolong Ovechkin's peak for as long as possible by decreasing his minutes.

 

[wetcoast]

Unless Ovechkin gets injured, he could have another 90 to 100 goals by the end of the 20-21 season. That would put him at 740 to 750 goals at the age of 35. Also, where's the slow decline at? Unless he goes on a long cold streak, he will better last seasons numbers in goals/assists/points.

He is relying more and more on the PP and is no longer a serious Hart candidate.

Slow decline might have been an awkward phrase but outside of being a Richard candidate he isn't really even a top 10 scorer any more and doesn't drive the play on his line.

No shame in that as being a top goal scorer should be adding value to his career still.

 

[Nick Hansen]

The more I look at Fedorov's case, the less I like it. Players that have me thinking amongst recent players: Thornton, Keith, Kane, Karlsson and St Louis.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He is relying more and more on the PP and is no longer a serious Hart candidate.

Slow decline might have been an awkward phrase but outside of being a Richard candidate he isn't really even a top 10 scorer any more and doesn't drive the play on his line.

No shame in that as being a top goal scorer should be adding value to his career still.

Yes, outside of scoring more goals than anyone else every year, you can see the decline.

 

[ted2019]

He is relying more and more on the PP and is no longer a serious Hart candidate.

Slow decline might have been an awkward phrase but outside of being a Richard candidate he isn't really even a top 10 scorer any more and doesn't drive the play on his line.

No shame in that as being a top goal scorer should be adding value to his career still.

How is he relying more on the PP? He has 46 goals as of this writing, 16 are PP. Last season it 49 goals and 17 PP. He has actually scored a higher % of even strength goals the past 2 seasons, then he did the previous seasons ( which he scored almost 40 to 50 % of his goals on the man advantage).

 

[Canadiens1958]

The team could just be trying to prolong Ovechkin's peak for as long as possible by decreasing his minutes.

Where do you see the team decreasing minutes for Ovechkin when he is on a pace to have his highest TOI in six seasons?

Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[wetcoast]

How is he relying more on the PP? He has 46 goals as of this writing, 16 are PP. Last season it 49 goals and 17 PP. He has actually scored a higher % of even strength goals the past 2 seasons, then he did the previous seasons ( which he scored almost 40 to 50 % of his goals on the man advantage).

In comparison to his prime especially as a playmaker where he was driving play more at ES.

He has become more of a goal scorer that relies a bit more on others.

His Richard's are somewhat disgusting this.

Still a great player and adding to his resume.

 

[daver]

He is relying more and more on the PP and is no longer a serious Hart candidate.

Slow decline might have been an awkward phrase but outside of being a Richard candidate he isn't really even a top 10 scorer any more and doesn't drive the play on his line.

No shame in that as being a top goal scorer should be adding value to his career still.

I would say he is holding steady at his elite goalscoring, Top 5 to 10ish overall player rating that he has been at since 2010/11.

In terms of direct comparables, I can see him moving past Jagr, maybe even Richard, if he keeps this up but not cracking the Hull/Beliveau/Crosby (yes, he should be right there with them after this season, IMO) tier.

 

[MXD]

I can't take seriously someone who doesn't put Patrick Roy and Doug Harvey on the same step as Hull and Beliveau.

 

[daver]

I can't take seriously someone who doesn't put Patrick Roy and Doug Harvey on the same step as Hull and Beliveau.

[You] will notice the term "comparables" meaning forwards. That being said, Hull and Belliveau seem to have the market cornered on the #5 position which is where I think Crosby will be.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't put any goalies up with those guys, MXD...fite me irl

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

Has there been any thought to voting on a best 100 teams of all-time list?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Has there been any thought to voting on a best 100 teams of all-time list?

Next year. But probably more like top-40 or so.

 

[Nick Hansen]

My biggest problem with this list so far probably is Selanne's placement. Gotta be honest, I just don't get it. Concurrent players like Kariya and Bure were better if you ask me.

 

[quoipourquoi]

My biggest problem with this list so far probably is Selanne's placement. Gotta be honest, I just don't get it. Concurrent players like Kariya and Bure were better if you ask me.

I think they stopped being concurrent when Selanne scored another 500 points after the 2005 lockout. He could have retired before the 2001 trade to San Jose and still have had more points than Bure’s entire career.

It’s not an unusual position to hold; Bure and Kariya both had to wait multiple years for the Hall of Fame while Selanne was a first ballot selection.

Besides Modano, Niedermayer, Robitaille, and Sundin, all of the other first ballot Hall of Fame players from the last 10-15 years have already come up for discussion, right?

 

[sr edler]

I think they stopped being concurrent when Selanne scored another 500 points after the 2005 lockout. He could have retired before the 2001 trade to San Jose and still have had more points than Bure’s entire career.

I'm a fan (kinda) of pre lockout Selänne. Post lockout I don't think he really added something he hadn't already shown before. He just kept being the same player doing Selänne things.

I like Modano of those players you mentioned. I would probably build my team around him instead of Selänne.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I think they stopped being concurrent when Selanne scored another 500 points after the 2005 lockout. He could have retired before the 2001 trade to San Jose and still have had more points than Bure’s entire career.

It’s not an unusual position to hold; Bure and Kariya both had to wait multiple years for the Hall of Fame while Selanne was a first ballot selection.

Besides Modano, Niedermayer, Robitaille, and Sundin, all of the other first ballot Hall of Fame players from the last 10-15 years have already come up for discussion, right?

Yes, I understand the 'career value' stand on this. Still not clear to me if we're ranking the top 100 best players or the top 100 greatest players. There certainly is an overlap in most cases but not in every case.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think it's intended to be "clear"...