Toews haters on the main board

[Bubba88]

He'll never win a Ross or Hart... rather have him win 2 more Smythes

 

[Pepe Silvia]

He'll never win a Ross or Hart... rather have him win 2 more Smythes

And two more Selke Trophies

 

[No Fun Shogun]

And a Messier this year.

 

[Bubba88]

that Award is more of a joke than the Selke/Norris has become

 

[Keithsteeth]

Personally I think people place too much emphasis on point totals without context. Hockey is not baseball where numbers are what they are.... it's more like basketball where the system your team uses and your role in that system can have a large impact on the statistics you accumulate. I'm not saying I think Toews is as good on offense as Crosby or anything; my point is more that if you look at say a player like Toews and a player like Crosy they have very different roles on their respective teams.

Heck Toews and Kane have different roles and different expectations as well.

If you look at Kane Q often uses him to make otherwise mediocre lines a dangerous offensive threat. Toews is used for possession and defense first and then scoring.

IMO the Hawks system is intentionally setup so that they don't rely too much on any 1 or 2 players for scoring

 

[darklcd]

Personally I think people place too much emphasis on point totals without context. Hockey is not baseball where numbers are what they are.... it's more like basketball where the system your team uses and your role in that system can have a large impact on the statistics you accumulate. I'm not saying I think Toews is as good on offense as Crosby or anything; my point is more that if you look at say a player like Toews and a player like Crosy they have very different roles on their respective teams.

Heck Toews and Kane have different roles and different expectations as well.

If you look at Kane Q often uses him to make otherwise mediocre lines a dangerous offensive threat. Toews is used for possession and defense first and then scoring.

IMO the Hawks system is intentionally setup so that they don't rely too much on any 1 or 2 players for scoring

Exactly. I think too many people discredit Toews because he is a 1st line player that doesn't put up elite numbers, but not every team uses their first lines in the same way. I don't really understand how so many non Hawks fans can't see that rolling out a line of Saad-Toews-Hossa, with two of the best two-way forwards in the league and an up and coming two-way beast in Saad, isn't supposed to be a scoring/carrying the team line. They shut down top pairings all day and have the firepower to put pucks in the net, but scoring first isn't necessarily their primary goal.

 

[ManChild20]

Exactly. I think too many people discredit Toews because he is a 1st line player that doesn't put up elite numbers, but not every team uses their first lines in the same way. I don't really understand how so many non Hawks fans can't see that rolling out a line of Saad-Toews-Hossa, with two of the best two-way forwards in the league and an up and coming two-way beast in Saad, isn't supposed to be a scoring/carrying the team line. They shut down top pairings all day and have the firepower to put pucks in the net, but scoring first isn't necessarily their primary goal.

Exactly. I'd venture to to guess that Toews' offensive stats go way up with Kane then with Hossa and Saad/Sharp. And I don't mean Kane makes Toews' a better offensive player, but playing with allows him to play the offensive game he capable of.

 

[eliostar]

“Haters are my favorite. I´ve built an empire with the bricks they´ve thrown at me. Keep on hating.†– C.M. Punk

Read more: http://www.keepinspiring.me/hater-quotes/#ixzz3dyrvEhar

 

[Backyard Hockey]

I've seen those threads. Its simple - these are guys who see the Hawks during playoffs and maybe a couple games a season. They don't see his full body of work.

Also, they don't understand his value as Captain. They look at the box score and see that he isn't a PPG player.

To me, it's simple. I've heard multiple analysts (former coaches, GMs, players, etc) on NBC Sports, on NHL Network and interviewed on various radio shows. In EVERY instance, the question is asked about who they would take (as GM or Coach) as the FIRST player to start an NHL team with. Every single time that question is asked, the answer is Jonathan Toews.

I hear Pierre McGuire bring this up on the Score the day after the Hawks won the Cup. Saw what you want about Pierre, but the guy did win 2 cups with Pitt as a young assistant coach. He's also know Toews since Shattuck St Mary's. Pierre may be quirky but he's forgotten more about hockey and the NHL game than every poster on every thread on this entire forum will ever know. He said without a doubt, the first player he'd choose when building an NHL team is Jonathan Toews.

So, Millbury, Jones, Roenick, Bowman, McGuire, Reed, Carter, Cherry - I'd take the opinions of these guys over 'random overweight Canadian thread poster guy' on the main boards.

 

[Blackhawks]

I dont think its hate, I think most think he is overrated and maybe rightfully so, I dont like the argument of how many cups does he have, cups are a team accomplishment, I am sure put Crosby with the supporting cast that Toews has and he wins the cup every time as well. I also dont like the argument of Crawford has two rings, its the same thing, championships are a team accomplishment and one player should not get credit for it. Put Toews in Edmonton and I doubt he gets any cups for the rest of his career. Important note to the hot headed fan boys: I dont hate Toews, I am just making a logical point, so try not to reply with your emotions.

 

[ChiHawk21]

I dont think its hate, I think most think he is overrated and maybe rightfully so, I dont like the argument of how many cups does he have, cups are a team accomplishment, I am sure put Crosby with the supporting cast that Toews has and he wins the cup every time as well. I also dont like the argument of Crawford has two rings, its the same thing, championships are a team accomplishment and one player should not get credit for it. Put Toews in Edmonton and I doubt he gets any cups for the rest of his career. Important note to the hot headed fan boys: I dont hate Toews, I am just making a logical point, so try not to reply with your emotions.

heres the thing...maybe crosby doesnt win the cup 3 times. the only thing we know for sure is that toews did. We also dont know if toews was put on edmonton they dont win the cup (highly highly unlikely) but the fact is we dont know. isnt that a logical point?

 

[clydesdale line]

Here's a great article by Laz. You can add NHL players on the list on what they think of Toews. Star NHLers at that.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/715365/jonathan-toews-value-goes-beyond-scoresheet

 

[RedBaronIndian]

Here's a great article by Laz. You can add NHL players on the list on what they think of Toews. Star NHLers at that.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/715365/jonathan-toews-value-goes-beyond-scoresheet

Was about to post this. Great read. Very high praise from the likes of Subban, Doughty, Tavares, Benn, Ladd and Letang. Loved the below gem from Subban.

“It’s just being the player that they need him to be every night, regardless of what he thinks or what anybody else thinks,” Montreal defenseman P.K. Subban said. “He just does what the coaching staff and the organization need him to do. And that makes a player special, because it’s a difficult thing to do. It’s a team-oriented skill that you need to have. It can’t be overlooked. And I think he’s a team-first guy and it shows, it shows in his play.”

 

[theaub]

I dont think its hate, I think most think he is overrated and maybe rightfully so, I dont like the argument of how many cups does he have, cups are a team accomplishment, I am sure put Crosby with the supporting cast that Toews has and he wins the cup every time as well. I also dont like the argument of Crawford has two rings, its the same thing, championships are a team accomplishment and one player should not get credit for it. Put Toews in Edmonton and I doubt he gets any cups for the rest of his career. Important note to the hot headed fan boys: I dont hate Toews, I am just making a logical point, so try not to reply with your emotions.

Just FYI, ending every post you make with some variation of 'I'm making a logical argument not an emotional statement' detracts from the logicalness of your argument

 

[x Tame Impala]

Blah blah blah look at how good his teammates are blah blah blah. Giroux/Tavares/Backstrom would have just as many cups on the Hawks blah blah blah. PPG blah blah blah

 

[Chelios]

I dont think its hate, I think most think he is overrated and maybe rightfully so, I dont like the argument of how many cups does he have, cups are a team accomplishment, I am sure put Crosby with the supporting cast that Toews has and he wins the cup every time as well. I also dont like the argument of Crawford has two rings, its the same thing, championships are a team accomplishment and one player should not get credit for it. Put Toews in Edmonton and I doubt he gets any cups for the rest of his career. Important note to the hot headed fan boys: I dont hate Toews, I am just making a logical point, so try not to reply with your emotions.

See this is what drives me so insane with the anti-Toews crowd. Its easy to say that Crosby/Malkin/Giroux/Backstrom/Whoever would have had just as much success as Toews if put into the same situation. But that is nothing more than speculation. It has just as much basis as me saying that the Pens would be better if they had Toews instead of Crosby or Malkin. Or me saying that maybe if Edmonton had Toews their high picks may have matured quicker and learned what it takes to win in this league. Those are all just opinions that are impossible to prove. And it seems that those are the arguments that constantly come up in any Toews thread. A group of us pointing to what Toews has actually done in his career, and another group throwing out hypotheticals about what [INSERT COMPARABLE PLAYER] could possibly have done in Toews' situation.

This argument is getting more and more tiring with each passing year. At some point people need to realize that Toews has won (and continues to win) at every level, in every situation, at a rate that is almost unheard of. Not only has he won at every level, but he has been absolutely integral in virtually every "team accomplishment" he has been a part of. We are way past the point of "oh he has just been lucky to be in some great situations". At a certain point, people (and by people I guess I really just mean non-Hawk HFBoard posters, since virtually everyone else acknowledges this) need to realize that Toews is a huge reason (if not the biggest reason) why these "great" teams are considered "great" in hindsight.

 

[Blackhawks]

See this is what drives me so insane with the anti-Toews crowd. Its easy to say that Crosby/Malkin/Giroux/Backstrom/Whoever would have had just as much success as Toews if put into the same situation. But that is nothing more than speculation. It has just as much basis as me saying that the Pens would be better if they had Toews instead of Crosby or Malkin. Or me saying that maybe if Edmonton had Toews their high picks may have matured quicker and learned what it takes to win in this league. Those are all just opinions that are impossible to prove. And it seems that those are the arguments that constantly come up in any Toews thread. A group of us pointing to what Toews has actually done in his career, and another group throwing out hypotheticals about what [INSERT COMPARABLE PLAYER] could possibly have done in Toews' situation.

This argument is getting more and more tiring with each passing year. At some point people need to realize that Toews has won (and continues to win) at every level, in every situation, at a rate that is almost unheard of. Not only has he won at every level, but he has been absolutely integral in virtually every "team accomplishment" he has been a part of. We are way past the point of "oh he has just been lucky to be in some great situations". At a certain point, people (and by people I guess I really just mean non-Hawk HFBoard posters, since virtually everyone else acknowledges this) need to realize that Toews is a huge reason (if not the biggest reason) why these "great" teams are considered "great" in hindsight.

Ok thats fine but lets think about it this way, what if Kane was given the C, would Toews get as much praise? What is Hoss was given the C? This is why I dont give one player ever the credit for an entire team winning, it does not make sense. Yes Toews is an awesome guy and an awesome captain but so will Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa will be awesome captains. The leadership in the locker room is not coming from one guy, all these guys are leaders.

 

[x Tame Impala]

You're missing his point about irrelevant hypotheticals

 

[Blackhawks]

You're missing his point about irrelevant hypotheticals

Alright man, so lets just sit here and pray to Toews, he is the only player that could have achieved what the team did in his position, are you happy?

Hypotheticals is how GMs work when they want to bring a player to your team, if he succeeded somewhere else, most likely he will succeed with your team as well. This is how this league works. Hypothetical situations require hypothetical analysis, you cant just say he is the one and only.

 

[JaegerDice]

I dont think its hate, I think most think he is overrated and maybe rightfully so, I dont like the argument of how many cups does he have, cups are a team accomplishment, I am sure put Crosby with the supporting cast that Toews has and he wins the cup every time as well. I also dont like the argument of Crawford has two rings, its the same thing, championships are a team accomplishment and one player should not get credit for it. Put Toews in Edmonton and I doubt he gets any cups for the rest of his career. Important note to the hot headed fan boys: I dont hate Toews, I am just making a logical point, so try not to reply with your emotions.

Cups are a team accomplishment, but there's a difference between being a passenger and being a key figure on a team accomplishment.

Toews has been one of the Blackhawks best and most important players in all three cup runs.

And it's not a coincidence that Toews is selected to every Canadian international team, and comes out looking like one of best players on the ice among the best of the best.

Saying Toews is lucky to have 3 cups is like saying he's lucky to have 2 gold medals.

No, when drawing from the deepest pool of elite talent on the planet (Team Canada), Toews is not only an automatic for the squad, he's also among the MVP candidates on said squad.

Maybe he really is just that damn good.

Ok thats fine but lets think about it this way, what if Kane was given the C, would Toews get as much praise? What is Hoss was given the C? This is why I dont give one player ever the credit for an entire team winning, it does not make sense. Yes Toews is an awesome guy and an awesome captain but so will Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa will be awesome captains. The leadership in the locker room is not coming from one guy, all these guys are leaders.

Kane getting the C when he joined the Blackhawks would have been a disaster.

He's a different person now clearly, at 26 than he was at 18 or 19, but dear god, no. Just no.

As for Hossa....maybe.

But all things being equal, Toews probably gets handed the C eventually anyway, based on how every member of the team showers him with praise for his leadership abilities. A letter on your chest doesn't make people respect you or follow you, or go through a wall for you. Respect gets you a letter on your chest.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It doesn't matter if other people could've done what Toews did. Toews still was the one who did it! It's a discredit to him and a belittlement to his achievements when you say a lesser player could've captained three Hawks teams to the Cup.

 

[JaegerDice]

Also, you guys probably don't get the same kind of coverage about this in the States as up here in Canada, but every damn Olympic year there's a Canada-wide panic attack over who is going to be on Sidney Crosby's wings.

Why?

Cause he's apparently very difficult to play with. In 2010, they spent the better part of the tournament juggling lines trying to find Crosby wingers that worked well with him. They ended up with Iginla and Staal, but most people agree Crosby had a pretty bad tournament.

They brought Chris Kunitz to the Olympics last year, just to ensure there would be somebody there with a hint of chemistry with him. And they ended up juggling the lines AGAIN, because nobody could get anything going with Crosby.

Meanwhile, Toews just took whatever linemates they threw at him, and made it work.

There's zero guarentee that Crosby comes into the Chicago lineup and has much chemistry or success with the players on this team. Hossa, he probably would have, cause they've played together before but no guarentee he and Kane could play well together, or he Saad could play well together, etc.

Stick with what we know. And what we know is that a) Jonathan Toews is an exceptional hockey player that b) can play with anybody and c) works incredibly well in this system for Q.

 

[Chelios]

Ok thats fine but lets think about it this way, what if Kane was given the C, would Toews get as much praise? What is Hoss was given the C? This is why I dont give one player ever the credit for an entire team winning, it does not make sense. Yes Toews is an awesome guy and an awesome captain but so will Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa will be awesome captains. The leadership in the locker room is not coming from one guy, all these guys are leaders.

But Kane (there is not much point in discussing Hossa since he didn't come until after Toews was made captain) was not given the C. And presumably there was a reason Toews was given the C, its not as if they pulled it out of a hat. It is a pretty big leap to say A) Kane deserved the C just as much as Toews did at the time, and B) the Hawks would have been just as successful had Kane been made captain over Toews. Comparing Toews to his Hawk teammates (aside from maybe Keith) also doesn't address the success he has had on the international stage where he has excelled.

 

[Chelios]

Alright man, so lets just sit here and pray to Toews, he is the only player that could have achieved what the team did in his position, are you happy?

That is not what any of us are saying. What we are saying is that what Toews has actually accomplished carries significantly more weight than what a similar player may have accomplished in the same situation.

 

[Keithsteeth]

Exactly. I'd venture to to guess that Toews' offensive stats go way up with Kane then with Hossa and Saad/Sharp. And I don't mean Kane makes Toews' a better offensive player, but playing with allows him to play the offensive game he capable of.

I think both Towes and Kane's numbers would increase if they played with one another... and if Keith was out there with them all the time the numbers would likely increase even more.