This team needs a shakeup. What do you do?

[BB88]

My thought before going back to break.

Firing the management won’t fix the issue with the players right now.

At this stage it’s a mental issue, the players know before going into 3rd period that they are not going to be able to hold down the lead.

They are better than their record is, they are consistently playing close games, have late leads in games and been winning games lately (the 9 game losing streak really hurts them in the standings no kidding) but their play on the 1st 40mins isn’t showing in the standings/score board, because they keep collapsing and mentally collapsing in the 3rd.

Plenty of it has to do with coaching and punishing the kids with their icetime while the vets keep losing them the games.

I know lot of people are keen on firing the big bosses right now but again I look at this forever rebuild in Buffalo and constantly changing management, how many years it took Devils to get something going, Edmonton just keeps repeating the same while changing management.

Change can be good but it can also lead them to a very similar path to Buffalo. In 10 years time notice they are in their 5th different Gm

Right now the biggest hurdle is to fix the mental shake up of the team and you’ll see a very different looking standings next year.

If they could have even keep it together for even half of those 3rd period leads they’d be ”close” to WC race while playing pretty solid hockey and with young team expecting them to get better as the season goes.

The overall situation isn’t close to being as bad as the 3rd period collapses show, that can be fixed and they better start focusing on it now

 

[cbjthrowaway]

• Are you seriously telling me that Kent was better than Marchenko or Danforth?

according to game score, their two best forwards and best defenseman last night were johnson, fantilli and jiricek. none of those guys played more than 11 minutes.

• Do you think the Sillinger-Voronkov-Fantilli-Kuraly line would have been capable of winning?

they're 8-14-5 and have blown leads in 17 of those games. if they're going to put up those results – and they will – i'd rather have the young guys getting actual ice time instead of playing <10 minutes while jenner and company blow another lead.

• Boone is to blame for the two seasons in a row we've had an inexperienced coach and a load of injuries? Or the situation before this season, so Vincent was in a bad position to begin with?

if you have an inexperienced coach, the captain needs to step up to keep the room together and hold guys accountable.

under jenner, that clearly hasn't happened. the veterans are the ones coughing up leads.

• Boone is to blame for Laine having a concussion and since he looks like another player? Or Johnny's bad play in the part of the season?

boone is johnny's primary linemate and it's clear from watching the two of them that their games don't compliment each other at all. boone should be on a pure checking line. but again, the issue is that the coaching staff refuses to do anything but play him in the 1C spot, and that leads to young guys not getting enough ice time.

 

[CBJ goalie]

^^^^ (this is directed at @BB88 post above this one)
This person speaks the truth. Well said.

Nothing is gained by firing the GM now - a decision for the off season.
And you can't fire the coach you just hired.

They're getting better, playing better - yes, blowing these leads sucks the life out of us as fans (and I'm sure to the players themselves), but this is part of the growing process.

Also look around the league - blowing leads is much more common than you think......

 

[cbjthrowaway]

this year doesn't mean anything blowing leads is going to happen when a team is learning how to play.

but the guys blowing the leads are the veterans (jenner, kuraly, etc) who should already know how to play.

fantilli, johnson and jiricek are supposed to be the cornerstone pieces for the future, but because pascal only wants to play the veterans in close games, those guys are stuck watching from the bench while the veterans cough up leads. how can that possibly help with development?

meanwhile last night, bedard played 22 minutes, leo carlsson played 18, simon nemec played nearly 22 minutes in his second ever NHL game.

pascal's player usage is inexcusable, and it starts with his over-reliance on jenner and kuraly.

 

[Toe Pick]

you can say boone's not the problem all you want, but he's definitely a big part of it:

• they're blowing leads in the third, when he and kuraly are the only two centers out there
  • this also means less meaningful ice time for the young guys
• the veterans aren't showing up. jenner is the captain and runs the room
• gaudreau is scoring at half his normal rate. jenner is his center.
• they often lose in overtime before touching the puck – he's the guy out there for the face-off
• the power play is unwatchable, and PP2 has outperformed PP1. boone is a staple on PP1

boone is the type of player that a contending team would love to have, because a contending team could use him as a high-effort complimentary piece and good veteran in the room. the blue jackets are leaning on him to be a 20+ minutes, all-situations 1C, star player, and captain.

that's been his role for the last two-plus seasons. they're 70-100-20 over that span, and getting worse. i like him as a player and a person, but it is abundantly clear that the role is too big for him.

as far as the poll is concerned, i don't think firing jarmo/JD will have any impact in the room, and i think stripping jenner's C is unfair to the player. but trading jenner is absolutely the correct course of action if they want to shake things up, and there are some clear silver linings to doing so. tons of assets, more ice time (special teams, late-game, overtime) for their young centers, etc.

plus it would give him a few real swings at a cup before his back gives out.

Agree with all of this except the not firing Jarmo part.

This team needs a fresh set of eyes with no attachments to players and draft history to evaluate for the deadline/ offseason.

Recall when Jarmo first came on board his biggest move was to trade away Brassard/Dorsett/Moore — all CBJ draft picks he didn’t make — for Gaborik. He didn’t have the attachment to those players so it was easier to move them.

I’m convinced Jarmo would never pull the trigger on a trade like that with “his” guys. And that’s a big problem.

Attachment, overvaluing his own players, having to win every trade, playing hardball with RFAs, and roster building are his biggest faults.

The other problem is JD needs to go along with Jarmo but who is competent enough (or even cares enough) from the ownership group to hire effective replacements. I fear we’ll get the Rick Nash promotion from within.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Ultimately Jarmo and JD are on the block - the Babcock coaching fiasco is a mess they created.
Firing the coach does no good right now. But firing them (Jarmo/JD) right now doesn't do much good. But we need changes there.
I find it laughable that some are blaming Jenner. Makes no sense to me.
Trading low on Laine or Johnny G is not a good option - but if they start playing better I would sure entertain that.

 

[Monk]

according to game score, their two best forwards and best defenseman last night were johnson, fantilli and jiricek. none of those guys played more than 11 minutes.

Is it possible the reason they had such a good 'score' is the # of minutes they played? Might their score go down if they doubled their minutes?

Is playing more minutes and fewer games better for development, or is playing more games and fewer minutes better for development?

 

[Ice9]

All of this disfunction and lack of play time may rear its head come time to try to re-sign these guys. Chasing off the future you're trying to build isn't good management.

 

[majormajor]

according to game score, their two best forwards and best defenseman last night were johnson, fantilli and jiricek. none of those guys played more than 11 minutes.



they're 8-14-5 and have blown leads in 17 of those games. if they're going to put up those results – and they will – i'd rather have the young guys getting actual ice time instead of playing <10 minutes while jenner and company blow another lead.

if you have an inexperienced coach, the captain needs to step up to keep the room together and hold guys accountable.

under jenner, that clearly hasn't happened. the veterans are the ones coughing up leads.

boone is johnny's primary linemate and it's clear from watching the two of them that their games don't compliment each other at all. boone should be on a pure checking line. but again, the issue is that the coaching staff refuses to do anything but play him in the 1C spot, and that leads to young guys not getting enough ice time.

but the guys blowing the leads are the veterans (jenner, kuraly, etc) who should already know how to play.

fantilli, johnson and jiricek are supposed to be the cornerstone pieces for the future, but because pascal only wants to play the veterans in close games, those guys are stuck watching from the bench while the veterans cough up leads. how can that possibly help with development?

meanwhile last night, bedard played 22 minutes, leo carlsson played 18, simon nemec played nearly 22 minutes in his second ever NHL game.

pascal's player usage is inexcusable, and it starts with his over-reliance on jenner and kuraly.

- You keep saying it is the veterans blowing the leads, but I'm not sure where to verify that. If you look at 5v5 goals against rates and xG against rates, Jenner's are lower (better) than Fantilli's and KJ's by a good margin.

- Jiricek has some very good against numbers. He's sketchy on the rush but perhaps already showing his defensive ability in his zone.

- Fantilli's goals against numbers are about 50% worse than Boone's. It's a very big gap. Fantilli's defensive positioning looks like a rookie to me, he's just a little off.

- All three do need to be playing more minutes. I don't think it will help us protect leads (probably make it worse), but we need them involved in every game, on both sides of the puck. For their sake.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Is it possible the reason they had such a good 'score' is the # of minutes they played? Might their score go down if they doubled their minutes?

the only way to find out is to give them more minutes

Is playing more minutes and fewer games better for development, or is playing more games and fewer minutes better for development?

again: bedard played 22 minutes last night, carlsson played over 18, and simon nemec played 21 minutes including special teams minutes.

if the jackets were a playoff team and the veterans were carrying them, i would understand the logic behind limiting minutes for the young guys, but not to the extent that they already are. and this team absolutely stinks. even if the young guys make mistakes, 1) it's not like the veterans aren't out there making a ton of mistakes already and 2) that is literally how you learn to play at this level.

sean kuraly had twice as much ice time last night as kent johnson. you can justify that if your team wins. but they blew a 3-0 lead and lost, and are sitting in last place. the player usage is inexcusable.

 

[majormajor]

Is it possible the reason they had such a good 'score' is the # of minutes they played? Might their score go down if they doubled their minutes?

Certainly being on the ice more in the third period, on this team, will not be good for your defensive stats. But as I've pointed out above, on the season the veterans still have better defensive stats than the kiddos.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

- You keep saying it is the veterans blowing the leads, but I'm not sure where to verify that.

by looking at who is out there when they blow the leads.

1. first LAK goal: jenner, gaudreau, danforth
2. second LAK goal: kuraly, texier, robinson
3. third LAK goal: kuraly, gaudreau, danforth

jenner had 7 minutes of ice time in the third period last night. kuraly had six. fantilli and johnson played 2:30 in the third last night.

If you look at 5v5 goals against rates and xG against rates, Jenner's are lower (better) than Fantilli's and KJ's by a good margin.

last night the fantilli line, in (very) limited minutes, was their best 5v5 line going by xG for/against.

i'm not saying that fantilli or johnson are better than boone right now, but stapling those two guys to the bench during this stage of their career to 'protect a lead' only for boone and kuraly's lines to repeatedly blow leads to lose games is an exercise in futility. they need the minutes.

- Jiricek has some very good against numbers. He's sketchy on the rush but perhaps already showing his defensive ability in his zone.

he should be playing on both special teams units. last night was simon nemec's second NHL game and he played 22 minutes, including special teams. if you want jiricek to become an all-situations #1 defenseman, playing him 9 minutes a night because "there were too many penalties" is the worst thing you can do.

- Fantilli's goals against numbers are about 50% worse than Boone's. It's a very big gap. Fantilli's defensive positioning looks like a rookie to me, he's just a little off.

i bet those numbers would change quite a bit if they ever tried fantilli and gaudreau together.

- All three do need to be playing more minutes. I don't think it will help us protect leads (probably make it worse),

i'd argue that, at this point, it literally cannot get worse.

 

[Monk]

the only way to find out is to give them more minutes

again: bedard played 22 minutes last night, carlsson played over 18, and simon nemec played 21 minutes including special teams minutes.

if the jackets were a playoff team and the veterans were carrying them, i would understand the logic behind limiting minutes for the young guys, but not to the extent that they already are. and this team absolutely stinks. even if the young guys make mistakes, 1) it's not like the veterans aren't out there making a ton of mistakes already and 2) that is literally how you learn to play at this level.

sean kuraly had twice as much ice time last night as kent johnson. you can justify that if your team wins. but they blew a 3-0 lead and lost, and are sitting in last place. the player usage is inexcusable.

I guess I'm just sort of musing about what the goal is at this point in the season. We seemed to have general consensus about two things on HFB going into this year:

-We didn't expect to make the playoffs. That'd be a very pleasant surprise.
-The focus of this year should be on developing the younger players.

Developing young players and making the playoffs obviously aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm just sort of 'thinking out loud' here around the idea that, especially with the current standings, the team's focus is far more on developing the young players than it is winning games. They're worse in the standings than I expected, but am I crazy to say they still look better this year than last with the ol' eye-test?

I guess you're effectively saying playing the young guys more minutes per game would be better for their development? I don't think comparing Bedard's minutes to Fantilli's minutes to LC's minutes in a vacuum is particularly a useful argument. But with that being said... I think I agree to an extent, I'd like to see Fantilli play more minutes & more meaningful minutes. On the flip side, I think as long as there is clear communication to the young players it's also not the worst thing in the world. I don't think this is ruining them or chasing them away from Columbus.

 

[majormajor]

by looking at who is out there when they blow the leads.

1. first LAK goal: jenner, gaudreau, danforth
2. second LAK goal: kuraly, texier, robinson
3. third LAK goal: kuraly, gaudreau, danforth

jenner had 7 minutes of ice time in the third period last night. kuraly had six. fantilli and johnson played 2:30 in the third last night.

That's one game. On the season Jenner's goals against rates are much lower than the young guys, so the only way he'd be responsible for all the blown leads would be if he was defensively immaculate in the first two periods and saved up all of his goals against for one period. I think you picked the wrong player to go after. Kuraly needs to play less but again his defensive numbers are better as well.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

That's one game. On the season Jenner's goals against rates are much lower than the young guys, so the only way he'd be responsible for all the blown leads would be if he was defensively immaculate in the first two periods and saved up all of his goals against for one period. I think you picked the wrong player to go after. Kuraly needs to play less but again his defensive numbers are better as well.

versus boston (blew a 1-0 lead, marchand natural hat trick all in the third period)

1. first BOS goal: jenner line + werenski pair
2. second BOS goal: kuraly + texier + werenski + bean (PK)
3. third BOS goal: jenner + danforth + provorov + gudbranson (PK)

when they blew the third period lead against montreal the other night, it was the kuraly line + provorov-gudbranson, then jenner and company were out there for the ENG.

i'm not disputing that his xGA and GA rates are better. my point is that when they have a lead in the third period, pascal pretty much only puts the jenner and kuraly lines out there, and they're blowing leads in most of those games.

that's not a "boone jenner sucks" argument – it's a "he's not sidney crosby to stop deploying him that way and just play the kids because it can't get worse" argument.

 

[majormajor]

versus boston (blew a 1-0 lead, marchand natural hat trick all in the third period)

1. first BOS goal: jenner line + werenski pair
2. second BOS goal: kuraly + texier + werenski + bean (PK)
3. third BOS goal: jenner + danforth + provorov + gudbranson (PK)

when they blew the third period lead against montreal the other night, it was the kuraly line + provorov-gudbranson, then jenner and company were out there for the ENG.

i'm not disputing that his xGA and GA rates are better. my point is that when they have a lead in the third period, pascal pretty much only puts the jenner and kuraly lines out there, and they're blowing leads in most of those games.

that's not a "boone jenner sucks" argument – it's a "he's not sidney crosby to stop deploying him that way and just play the kids because it can't get worse" argument.

If you're giving more minutes to players with worse xGA and GA numbers, and taking those minutes from players with better defensive numbers, then yes, it can get worse.

 

[Monk]

If you're giving more minutes to players with worse xGA and GA numbers, and taking those minutes from players with better defensive numbers, then yes, it can get worse.

But if it's good for the young players development, does it matter that much if it gets worse? Or is having a not-as-shitty team also a factor in young players' development... hmmmm.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I guess I'm just sort of musing about what the goal is at this point in the season. We seemed to have general consensus about two things on HFB going into this year:

-We didn't expect to make the playoffs. That'd be a very pleasant surprise.
-The focus of this year should be on developing the younger players.

the frustrating thing here is that, thanks to none of the veterans showing up over a quarter of the way through the season, they're in last place but still won't commit to actually developing/playing the young players!

They're worse in the standings than I expected, but am I crazy to say they still look better this year than last with the ol' eye-test?

they look a lot better until it's the third period and they're protecting a lead by just rotating the jenner and kuraly lines, spending zero time with the puck, and imploding.

I guess you're effectively saying playing the young guys more minutes per game would be better for their development?

more consistent ice time. hard to get into the flow of the game if you're playing 3 shifts in a period. also pazzy refuses to put the young guys on the special teams units except for fantilli, who he's using in the wrong role on that unit anyway. jiricek should be getting pp + pk time. johnson and fantilli should be on PP1.

give ice time in high-leverage situations. let them go out there to protect a lead or when you need a goal.

On the flip side, I think as long as there is clear communication to the young players it's also not the worst thing in the world. I don't think this is ruining them or chasing them away from Columbus.

david jiricek made the team, was told to get a place, then was healthy scratched and sent down, then called back up, all while getting zero special teams time and playing ~10 minutes most nights.

regardless of what the org tells him (which he now can't trust after the "get a place" debacle) how do you expect him to feel seeing simon nemec play 22 minutes with special teams time on a better team in his second NHL game?

or kent johnson, who was sent down because he needed confidence + ice time, then called back up, put on his off-wing, and given 8 minutes a night with no power play time?

the "we have a plan, here it is" thing works for guys like carlsson, where you are putting your trust in them to perform and setting them up to succeed, but the jackets are doing none of those things with their young guys right now.

But if it's good for the young players development, does it matter that much if it gets worse? Or is having a not-as-shitty team also a factor in young players' development... hmmmm.

the bottom line is that they're going to be a bad team that loses games anyway.

would you rather do that while actually developing your young guys, or watch boone jenner and sean kuraly toil away, only to still end up with a last-place team?

i know what my choice is, and i don't have to think twice about it.

 

[Monk]

the frustrating thing here is that, thanks to none of the veterans showing up over a quarter of the way through the season, they're in last place but still won't commit to actually developing/playing the young players!

they look a lot better until it's the third period and they're protecting a lead by just rotating the jenner and kuraly lines, spending zero time with the puck, and imploding.

more consistent ice time. hard to get into the flow of the game if you're playing 3 shifts in a period. also pazzy refuses to put the young guys on the special teams units except for fantilli, who he's using in the wrong role on that unit anyway. jiricek should be getting pp + pk time. johnson and fantilli should be on PP1.

give ice time in high-leverage situations. let them go out there to protect a lead or when you need a goal.


david jiricek made the team, was told to get a place, then was healthy scratched and sent down, then called back up, all while getting zero special teams time and playing ~10 minutes most nights.

regardless of what the org tells him (which he now can't trust after the "get a place" debacle) how do you expect him to feel seeing simon nemec play 22 minutes with special teams time on a better team in his second NHL game?

or kent johnson, who was sent down because he needed confidence + ice time, then called back up, put on his off-wing, and given 8 minutes a night with no power play time?

the "we have a plan, here it is" thing works for guys like carlsson, where you are putting your trust in them to perform and setting them up to succeed, but the jackets are doing none of those things with their young guys right now.


the bottom line is that they're going to be a bad team that loses games anyway.

would you rather do that while actually developing your young guys, or watch boone jenner and sean kuraly toil away, only to still end up with a last-place team?

i know what my choice is, and i don't have to think twice about it.

Yeah, I'm starting to buy what you're selling.

Ugh.

would you rather do that while actually developing your young guys, or watch boone jenner and sean kuraly toil away, only to still end up with a last-place team?

i know what my choice is, and i don't have to think twice about it.

That's exactly what I was getting at, yeah. Still mildly feeling some "What IS right for their development?" questions, but yeah.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

they've only won 36% of their games since he's been captain. fans and media any other market would be calling for his letter. fans here are acting like criticizing the captain of a team that habitually blows leads and has disappearing veterans is somehow off-limits.

I've posted before that I think fans' perception of Boone is often misplaced (IMO). I think this is an example of that. He's a Jackets lifer and we love him for it and rightly so. He has been and continues to be a very good player for this team.

But the situation with his leadership does bear scrutiny, such as we outside the room can do.

That said, despite that I voted for "trade a player," it would not be Boone.

 

[majormajor]

But if it's good for the young players development, does it matter that much if it gets worse? Or is having a not-as-shitty team also a factor in young players' development... hmmmm.

Oh I'm arguing we should give the young players a lot more minutes regardless.

I just think the idea that it would help us retain leads is delusional. The Jackets give up 50% more goals against per minute with Fantilli on the ice than with Jenner.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Ownership said expectations for the season (playoffs) were still in place after the Babcock fiasco.

That's not happening. Better to clean house now than let Jarmo take the ship down with him at the deadline.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

All of those choices are not going to fix a 3rd period collapse.

First, change whatever they do in the 2nd intermission that allows things to get into their heads and play like sh*t in the 3rd.

If it is mixing up lines. Stop.

If it is sitting around getting tense, maybe watch an episode of Seinfeld during intermission. Just do something different.

 

[majormajor]

But the situation with his leadership does bear scrutiny, such as we outside the room can do.

Which is basically nothing. We don't know what the leadership does in private conversations when the cameras aren't in the room. You can't just look at a bad team's record and know what the convo must be like. Likewise if they were winning, we have no idea if anything in the inside conversation would have changed.

I'm looking forward to hundreds more HF posts confidently asserting things about Jenner's poor leadership.

 

[CharlotteJacket]

What happened last night with the Kings is symbolic of the Jackets since almost day one. When we play those elite teams and they want to step on the gas, they do and the Jackets are powerless to do anything about it. The kings probably could have scored a couple more goals in the third. We simply couldn't get the puck out of our zone and the Kings skated circles around us. What's the solution? We've been looking for that for almost 20 years.