The Ryan Reaves Debate

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
You have to understand why he's playing every night. It's not to score. It's not to play defense. It's not to be a net front presence. It's not to win board battles. It's not even to throw hits. He is there to reduce the abuse that our stars take.

I don't have to like it though haha. Sometimes, and not you here, posters use the reasoning as some sort of full proof defense of the decision. That can be Sully and JR's reasoning for it, yet still be a poor decision, particularly against teams like Tampa, Chicago, Toronto, etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
I don't have to like it though haha. Sometimes, and not you here, posters use the reasoning as some sort of full proof defense of the decision. That can be Sully and JR's reasoning for it, yet still be a poor decision, particularly against teams like Tampa, Chicago, Toronto, etc.
It's fine not to like it. But he's acting like JR doesn't know exactly what he's doing and it's just silly. Playing him because of ego and not wanting to admit that they made a bad trade? Come on now :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: ColePens

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
JR also has said many times he doesn't force Sully to play players. Coach coaches. GM does not set the lineup.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,636
14,512
Pittsburgh
Is it really a debate where everyone basically agrees?

The best that I have seen of a 'defense' is that Reaves is not as completely useless as everyone says, the proof being an unprovable non event such as neither Crosby or Malkin being decapitated yet.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
It's fine not to like it. But he's acting like JR doesn't know exactly what he's doing and it's just silly. Playing him because of ego and not wanting to admit that they made a bad trade? Come on now :laugh:

pens x is obviously being dramatic.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
Is it really a debate where everyone basically agrees?

The best that I have seen of a 'defense' is that Reaves is not as completely useless as everyone says, the proof being an unprovable non event such as neither Crosby or Malkin being decapitated yet.

Generally speaking, there is agreement that Reaves hasn't been very good at hockey. I think the disagreement comes down to whether it is necessary to have him in the lineup regularly over likely better hockey players.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ogrezilla

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
Is it really a debate where everyone basically agrees?

The best that I have seen of a 'defense' is that Reaves is not as completely useless as everyone says, the proof being an unprovable non event such as neither Crosby or Malkin being decapitated yet.
Sid and Geno clearly want him in. Whether he actually helps or just makes them feel better, I don't know. But if they want him, then I am fine with them having him. Hopefully come playoff time we pick and choose when he plays.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jaded-Fan

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,636
14,512
Pittsburgh
A more interesting topic to me is a spin off of what is being talked about above. Why did JR trade for Reaves? He is not stupid, and he, along with the analytics people, came up with the strategy of four speedy lines rather than a traditional checking line.

My guess is that the stars, Crosby and Malkin especially, came to him and said that they brought two cups and enough was enough. They likely almost demanded some protection. If that is the case then I have no real problem with the move, as long as Reaves is out for pretty much the playoffs and they reassemble as closely as possible the four speed lines toward the end of the regular season.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,636
14,512
Pittsburgh
Sid and Geno clearly want him in. Whether he actually helps or just makes them feel better, I don't know. But if they want him, then I am fine with them having him. Hopefully come playoff time we pick and choose when he plays.


We just said pretty much the same thing.

Although my version is more elegant. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ogrezilla

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
We just said pretty much the same thing.

Although my version is more elegant. ;)
But I said it first.

 

RizzleMcRib

Cheeseburgers and rocket ships.
Jun 17, 2014
1,112
499
Wherever there are cheeseburgers.
We just said pretty much the same thing.

Although my version is more elegant. ;)
I was about to say the same exact thing. We can groan about the acquisition all we want, but if the stars asked for somebody to protect them, then JR went out and got the best possible solution. Crosby is probably one big headshot away from being a potato. If Reaves can deter that, which so far it seems to be working, I am all for it.
 

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
39,728
7,402
Injured Reserve
Generally speaking, there is agreement that Reaves hasn't been very good at hockey. I think the disagreement comes down to whether it is necessary to have him in the lineup regularly over likely better hockey players.

That and I think immediately after the trade you saw people and the org over selling him as a player and/or what he’d do here. Those letdowns are never received well. He could break out offensively because he has untapped offensive potential... on track for his worst season in years. He’s a fast enough skater to fit the system... not such a good fit. He can be played like a regular 4th liner... no one told Sullivan that. Surpsingly skilled... no. I still love "he can be taught to PK" and then Sullivan tried it for a preseason game or two. That shit was never going to help Reaves' case and it looks like Sullivan hasn’t exactly been gung-ho about this.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
That and I think immediately after the trade you saw people and the org over selling him as a player and/or what he’d do here. Those letdowns are never received well. He could break out offensively because he has untapped offensive potential... on track for his worst season in years. He’s a fast enough skater to fit the system... not such a good fit. He can be played like a regular 4th liner... no one told Sullivan that. Surpsingly skilled... no. I still love "he can be taught to PK" and then Sullivan tried it for a preseason game or two. That **** was never going to help Reaves' case and it looks like Sullivan hasn’t exactly been gung-ho about this.

Exactly.
 

Doogle

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
599
465
2016-17 man games lost: 278
2017-18 mgl so far: 63

I'm sorry that you are too dense to understand the correlation. Even subtract Letang's injury and it's still an overwhelming difference.

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with our stars not being cross checked and boarded on a nightly basis? Do you guys not remember last season at all?
 

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
39,728
7,402
Injured Reserve
How do we KNOW that Sid and Geno want him in? I'm just curious.

We don’t, there’s a decent chance at least guys like Crosby and Letang do. That being said, their play this season isn’t worth hobbling L4 even more so they can feel safer while maybe, possibly being a little safer. If they were all playing amazingly it would be easier to swallow vs them feeling safe while stupidly turning the puck over.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,636
14,512
Pittsburgh
2016-17 man games lost: 278
2017-18 mgl so far: 63

I'm sorry that you are too dense to understand the correlation. Even subtract Letang's injury and it's still an overwhelming difference.

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with our stars not being cross checked and boarded on a nightly basis? Do you guys not remember last season at all?

If only Reaves were on the Pens in 2013 this may never have happened.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Big McLargehuge

Speaking Moistly

What a terrible image.
Feb 19, 2013
39,728
7,402
Injured Reserve
2016-17 man games lost: 278
2017-18 mgl so far: 63

I'm sorry that you are too dense to understand the correlation. Even subtract Letang's injury and it's still an overwhelming difference.

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with our stars not being cross checked and boarded on a nightly basis? Do you guys not remember last season at all?

Kessel missed 0 games last season because he’s Kessel, Crosby missed 7 last season after being concussed in practice, Letang missed 41 games last season and hasn’t gotten hurt yet this season, Malkin missed 20 games last season and has already missed 4 games this season while he usually gets hurt later in the season anyway. Murray missed, what, 10 games last season? He’s missed 5 already this season. So, no, I’m not seeing a major difference with our stars unless we consider Letang who's injury stemmed from f***ing Callahan running him in the playoffs.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
We don't.

But it is a logical assumption.

And an attempt to explain something that if it did not exist would be unexplainable.

Fair. I'm cool with that and it is logical. I just wondered if I missed some quotes with Sid alluding to it. I know Sid in the past has spoken favorably of enforcers on his team, but I don't recall Geno doing so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jaded-Fan

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,704
8,141
2016-17 man games lost: 278
2017-18 mgl so far: 63

I'm sorry that you are too dense to understand the correlation. Even subtract Letang's injury and it's still an overwhelming difference.

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with our stars not being cross checked and boarded on a nightly basis? Do you guys not remember last season at all?

Please break down the man games lost last year due to cheap shots or other injuries related directly to dirty play vs this year.
 

molon labe

Registered User
Jul 13, 2016
4,677
3,060
Florida
That and I think immediately after the trade you saw people and the org over selling him as a player and/or what he’d do here. Those letdowns are never received well. He could break out offensively because he has untapped offensive potential... on track for his worst season in years. He’s a fast enough skater to fit the system... not such a good fit. He can be played like a regular 4th liner... no one told Sullivan that. Surpsingly skilled... no. I still love "he can be taught to PK" and then Sullivan tried it for a preseason game or two. That **** was never going to help Reaves' case and it looks like Sullivan hasn’t exactly been gung-ho about this.

We're seeing different emotions from Sully. Reaves has hit a few posts this season, and made some really great plays for what he is. Just last game Saturday night vs. Toronto he beat two men back after starting about 20 ft behind them to chase down a puck and prevent an icing - he absolutely does have speed (especially considering his size).

What has been said many times that I think is the truest point here, is that he's on a fourth line with literally no offensive talent. Surprising to me (and others) is that the focus is on Reaves at all. Reaves was never brought in for 20+ goals, yet there's a tremendous amount of flack on him for not producing points. Our third and fourth lines have been awful this season - why is Reaves, who makes 1M and plays 7 mins a game being picked on? Because a young winger could backpack a Kuhn playing perhaps 3 more minutes a game and produce? That's a stretch in my opinion. Our flaws are the lack of creative 3C/4C we had last season.

How do we KNOW that Sid and Geno want him in? I'm just curious.

Nobody is sure about those two - though they seem to really like the guy. Letang has been far more outspoken about loving Reaves in the lineup. However, It's surely nice to see Reaves throwing hits and punches this year as opposed to Geno having to stick up for our guys in physical games. Letang has also seemed (albeit with many terrible decisions) more level headed this year.

Reaves has not played to the expectation of what some of us (I thought he'd be able to produce more - though I did not foresee our fourth line looking its' worst in perhaps 4-5 years) thought he would...but I'd certainly say he's shown SOME improvements for whatever that's worth (his board play, passing, and recognizing transition). The couple moments this year where I've seen him do exactly what I'd hope he would were against Nashville, Washington, and specifically Calgary - when Tkachuk was being a ___ he ended up getting plastered and hurt. I was certainly not shedding any tears over that - and last season it would have been Sid or Geno taking the abuse and having to give it back. This year? Reaves took care of him.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,636
14,512
Pittsburgh
If the goal was to keep Geno from losing it and doing dumb things at times the mission failed. He still lets non calls and such get under his skin and retaliates doing something dumb and obvious and gets rung up for it.
 

Doogle

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
599
465
Please break down the man games lost last year due to cheap shots or other injuries related directly to dirty play vs this year.

So you want me to break down every last year injury and determine whether that's the result of a cheap shot or otherwise, yet you cannot come up with literally just one instance of one of our players getting injured due to a cheap shot this season?

If only Reaves were on the Pens in 2013 this may never have happened.



Responses like this only confirm my suspicions that you are dense. Of course Reaves isn't preventing every freak injury. What he does do, is deter other players from taking runs, or hitting up high, or Matt Niskanining any of our teammates. Before, if a player took Sid out for the playoffs, the only repercussion coming was a one game suspension. And players were ok with the trade off. We criticize the league for not doing more to prevent cheap shots, but nothing gets done. So we get Reaves. Now players know that in addition to the one game suspension, they're likely getting their ass beat. So they're not willing to take as many cheap shots, and we haven't had as many injuries.

But right, I'm sure that the overwhelming difference in man games lost has nothing to do with any of that, and is just a lucky coincidence.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad