The Ryan Reaves Debate

[molon labe]

If the goal was to keep Geno from losing it and doing dumb things at times the mission failed. He still lets non calls and such get under his skin and retaliates doing something dumb and obvious and gets rung up for it.

That's a bit of a stretch to say the goal was to prevent Geno from losing it... Or were you being facetious?

It's not a stretch to say that last year Geno was one of the main guys to get in the middle of the more physical games and instigate fighting or further physical play. He definitely still plays with an edge but does not have to be 'the guy' whatsoever with Reaves sitting on the bench.

 

[molon labe]

So you want me to break down every last year injury and determine whether that's the result of a cheap shot or otherwise, yet you cannot come up with literally just one instance of one of our players getting injured due to a cheap shot this season?



Responses like this only confirm my suspicions that you are dense. Of course Reaves isn't preventing every freak injury. What he does do, is deter other players from taking runs, or hitting up high, or Matt Niskanining any of our teammates. Before, if a player took Sid out for the playoffs, the only repercussion coming was a one game suspension. And players were ok with the trade off. We criticize the league for not doing more to prevent cheap shots, but nothing gets done. So we get Reaves. Now players know that in addition to the one game suspension, they're likely getting their ass beat. So they're not willing to take as many cheap shots, and we haven't had as many injuries.

But right, I'm sure that the overwhelming difference in man games lost has nothing to do with any of that, and is just a lucky coincidence.

Right to a point - however Reaves said so as recently as in an interview this past week that his goal is not to just fight someone if they take a cheap shot at one of our stars - it's to "take out one of their top players in response"... that's the defense and logic I want. That's why I liked the Tkachuk instance where he realized what happens when you're not the toughest on the ice.

If Washington tries that again - Reaves can go knee-to-knee to Ovi - or concuss Holtby in a collision, etc. Is that just? Well depends on your point of view. It's garbage that this is even being discussed but it is. I've never believed fighting deters any of the cheap shots taken around the league - but tit for tat DOES. If someone wants to mess with Sid, Geno, Kessel, etc - then they should be prepared to lose one of their players - not just take 20 seconds of punches and be done with. THAT'S his role and I don't think anyone truly LIKES it. However, as Penguins fans we've seen countless times that the league doesn't give a shi about it's top players - therefore GMJR makes a case to level the playing field.

If what anyone has thought Reaves is is someone to just fight - that's entirely misguided. He's being prepped to handle business and deter in a system of hockey he's never been forced to play in. The growing pains are real - and they're real exaggerated with the awful bottom 6 performances we've seen this year.


Furthermore:
“If someone takes a run at one out our top guys, I’m going got take a run at their top guy or somebody on their team,” Reaves said. “You always notice when guys go after guys, and your instinct is always going to be to try to do something about it in some way. That’s hockey.”

Ryan Reaves and the Evolving Player's Code

 

[HandshakeLine]

I love these threads because nobody's arguing on the same page. It's an old school Strawman Olympics, and I think we can go for the gold in both the pankration and hoplitodromos.

 

[Shady Machine]

So you want me to break down every last year injury and determine whether that's the result of a cheap shot or otherwise, yet you cannot come up with literally just one instance of one of our players getting injured due to a cheap shot this season?

You're the one making the claim that the lower man games lost is correlated to Ryan Reaves presence on the bench for 55 minutes a night and 5 minutes on the ice. So since you made the claim, I'd like to see some evidence.

If I can't point to an injury this season due to a cheapshot, then it's up to you to show me that is out of the ordinary vs prior years.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Shady asked because a lot of the Pens injuries over the years were more freak injuries than cheap shots. I can not recall too many of those in fact.

I think that the Pens lazy play and not dropping to block shots likely has had a greater effect on the man games lost lowering, but again most of the injuries, especially long term losses of Crosby or Malkin, were the result of a freak accident. The one that I showed. Crosby sliding into the board and that high ankle sprain. Even Steckel's hit most argue was two players who did not see each other.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

People throwing around the word unexplainable to describe a hockey team employing a physical player despite a lack of hockey skill. Now that is the height of hyperbole. Whether anybody agrees with this mindset or not, you have to acknowledge that it is a mindset that exists in this sport. It is certainly not as prevalent as it once was, but it is not totally extinct as a concept.

There is this asinine myth that the acquisiton of Reaves and loss of Cullen has served to strip the team as a whole of its identity based on speed. Here's the problem with that: the Penguins haven't truly had a speedy identity since the 2016 playoffs. The 2017 team was a totally different animal that won not by possession or speed but with their ability to convert their opportunities.

You can make Reaves work on a team like the Pens, but his line needs a player who can get the line established in the offensive zone. From there they can just create traffic in front of the net and funnel pucks on net and that is just fine for a 4th line.

I think JR needs to find a good 4th line center by the deadline. That will do a whole lot of good.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Ok so, is Reaves capable of more or is Sullivan just not a fan of his? Reaves went from being a regular on the Blues and being ok there, to being an issue here and nothing has really changed with Reaves with his game.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Reaves has been fine.

Kuhn and Rowney don't belong in the NHL, when you put Reaves on a line with 2 guys who should be in the AHL its going to make Reaves look bad.

You could put Phil on a line with Rowney and Kuhn and you wouldn't notice much of a difference.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ok so, is Reaves capable of more or is Sullivan just not a fan of his? Reaves went from being a regular on the Blues and being ok there, to being an issue here and nothing has really changed with Reaves with his game.

The style of team he is on changed dramatically though. And he's with two other guys who also lack real talent. I think he'd look a hell of a lot better if we'd have been able to keep Cullen, and I think he'll look better if we can bump Sheahan to the 4th line. Same goes for Rowney or Kuhn. Any of them can be a fine 3rd wheel imo, but combine them and nobody is actually driving the play at all.

 

[The Old Master]

Right to a point - however Reaves said so as recently as in an interview this past week that his goal is not to just fight someone if they take a cheap shot at one of our stars - it's to "take out one of their top players in response"... that's the defense and logic I want

Ryan Reaves and the Evolving Player's Code

me too! but I have yet to see it on the pen's.......I think it should of happened by now.......still waiting......

 

[Pens x]

There's just no way you are actually this dense. You have to understand why he's playing every night. It's not to score. It's not to play defense. It's not to be a net front presence. It's not to win board battles. It's not even to throw hits. He is there to reduce the abuse that our stars take.

I know why they acquired him, guy. I just don’t believe he deters anyone from taking cheap shots against our stars. I just don’t buy into this whole conspiracy theory that he makes a significant impact in deterring that crap.

Do you really think opposing players care that much about Ryan “7 mins a game” Reaves? We better not angry Reaves! I’d love to see him sit a couple of games to see if people like you even notice a difference.

It’s bs. We somehow won a cup without dead beats like him in the lineup. He’s a waste of a roster spot.

No one is saying we are losing games because of him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The bottom line is that this is the sort of thing that, in the past, dirtbags did to Crosby with impunity:

It's not happening this year, and I'll be shocked if it happens again while Reaves is in the line-up. If anyone does, they'll probably have a broken orbital bone and/or an injured superstar of their own to contend with. Now there's deterrence and consequences for trying to scramble our meal ticket's brain.

 

[Shady Machine]

The bottom line is that this is the sort of thing that, in the past, dirtbags did to Crosby with impunity:

It's not happening this year, and I'll be shocked if it happens again while Reaves is in the line-up. If anyone does, they'll probably have a broken orbital bone and/or an injured superstar of their own to contend with. Now there's deterrence and consequences for trying to scramble our meal ticket's brain.

3 of those 4 were in the playoffs. Is Reaves a regular in the playoffs?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

3 of those 4 were in the playoffs. Is Reaves a regular in the playoffs?

Yes, 3 of those 4 were in the playoffs. But if you ask me, one of those is too many. Just for fun though, on February 19, 2015:



And I would have Reaves as a playoff regular if we're playing the Jackets or Capitals, and potentially the Rags. We know their m.o.

 

[KIRK]

If the goal was to keep Geno from losing it and doing dumb things at times the mission failed. He still lets non calls and such get under his skin and retaliates doing something dumb and obvious and gets rung up for it.

Actually, I think that's MAYBE happened 2-3 times this year. Sid has been far guiltier this year, although narratives are gonna narrate otherwise.

The only way in which the Reaves acquisition related to Geno is that, to my understanding, he was getting tired of having to be the team's tough guy and having to be the one to fight.

EDIT: There is NO Reaves debate. He deters nothing, and it's pretty obvious there were more constructive ways for JR to have used his 1st rounder this summer. In hindsight, knowing that the Duchene dream was just that and that Cullen wouldn't return, I'm sure he'd have dangled his first and Sprong in GMGM's direction.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes, 3 of those 4 were in the playoffs. But if you ask me, one of those is too many. Just for fun though, on February 19, 2015:



And I would have Reaves as a playoff regular if we're playing the Jackets or Capitals, and potentially the Rags. We know their m.o.

I probably would too. My concern is that he will be a regular regardless of opponent

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I probably would too. My concern is that he will be a regular regardless of opponent

Sully needs to be a lot more selective about when he dresses him, absolutely. And hopefully a lot sooner than the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, 3 of those 4 were in the playoffs. But if you ask me, one of those is too many. Just for fun though, on February 19, 2015:



And I would have Reaves as a playoff regular if we're playing the Jackets or Capitals, and potentially the Rags. We know their m.o.

Malkin fought Shattenkirk this year?

 

[Gurglesons]

People throwing around the word unexplainable to describe a hockey team employing a physical player despite a lack of hockey skill. Now that is the height of hyperbole. Whether anybody agrees with this mindset or not, you have to acknowledge that it is a mindset that exists in this sport. It is certainly not as prevalent as it once was, but it is not totally extinct as a concept.

There is this asinine myth that the acquisiton of Reaves and loss of Cullen has served to strip the team as a whole of its identity based on speed. Here's the problem with that: the Penguins haven't truly had a speedy identity since the 2016 playoffs. The 2017 team was a totally different animal that won not by possession or speed but with their ability to convert their opportunities.

You can make Reaves work on a team like the Pens, but his line needs a player who can get the line established in the offensive zone. From there they can just create traffic in front of the net and funnel pucks on net and that is just fine for a 4th line.

I think JR needs to find a good 4th line center by the deadline. That will do a whole lot of good.

So, so, so many people are missing this and it was one of my main contentions last year. We won a cup despite our roster in 2017, not because of it.

That shouldn’t take anything away from that team, but let’s not pretend they were the buzz saw that 2016 was.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Technically Sid is more likely to get injured having Reaves here. Reaves doesn’t play many minutes because he’s not a great fit. Sid’s playing more minutes so more opportunities for injury

 

[Fatty McLardy]

Reaves better put Dubinsky to sleep, for the trade to be worth it.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Reaves better put Dubinsky to sleep, for the trade to be worth it.

I’d be ok if he could put up more than a goal and 2 assists

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Malkin fought Shattenkirk this year?

Did what Shattenkirk did remotely resemble the sort of repeated, targeted attacks that Reaves was brought in to quell? If Malkin's going to take it upon himself to fight Shattenkirk for whacking Kessel once, that's on him.

 

[NMK11]

So, so, so many people are missing this and it was one of my main contentions last year. We won a cup despite our roster in 2017, not because of it.

That shouldn’t take anything away from that team, but let’s not pretend they were the buzz saw that 2016 was.

I dont know if people are missing it at all. Our roster and play style changed from 2016 to 2017 and I agree it was for the worse. Not that Im in any way disappointed about winning a cup last year or criticizing, but all you have to do is look how we went from rolling through teams to just squeaking by. So its not are people missing it, but why are we continuing to move even further away from who we were before?

Reaves is not a good hockey player. Hes at best a 12/13 F, and for someone like that to be stapled into the lineup means the team in general is worse, and I dont really see how thats debatable. Theres a reason per JR, but this completely is subjective. Having fighters on the team didnt stop cheap shots in the past, but people are going to continue to point toward not having a season ending injury via a cheap shot as proof that Reaves is warranted.

 

[Mrs Crosby's Dryer]

Forum PSA - the documentary Ice Guardians is currently on Netflix. I’d ask that anyone who is against Reaves (who is indeed a decent player)/a “Reaves type” in the lineup watch it with an open mind.

As scary as it may be to comprehend, things exist in our beloved game that occur beyond the scope and comfort zone of a kumbaya message board and the EA NHL universe.