King Henry I said:
Are you sure you know your demographics there? I'm pretty sure you don't. Hartford probably isn't going to grow anymore, but that's not exactly the same as "on the decline".
Are you sure you know your demographics there? I'm pretty sure you don't. Hartford probably isn't going to grow anymore, but that's not exactly the same as "on the decline".
tml_4ever said:
A deal, not an arena. Except maybe Nashville and possibly Atlanta, I'm not exactly sure. An arena deal would have to be in place before the Whalers came back to the NHL, but in this case, I don't see how having an arena already standing is better than having an arena built to the owner's specifications after the fact. And with Gottesdiener being a developer and owning so much downtown Hartford real estate as it is, it would be ideal for him to build his own building.
Not to mention, he has said he is eager to develop the land where the current Hartford Civic Center is standing today. I believe he said the land would be perfect for a mini-Rockefeller Plaza, although that's one of countless possible uses.
All of the most recent expansion teams had a deal in place (Nashville's was completed in 1996) when they were awarded franchises, and all of them had a new arena to play in when they began play. Those were the expansion franchises though, and probably wouldn't have been awarded a franchise had an arena package not been set. Hartford, if they were to get a franchise, most likely would be moving one in from elsewhere. So, like the Whalers move to N.C., the new Hartford team could play in the outdated HCC while this developer built a new facility.
Troy McClure
Suter will never be scratched
If they have a real potential owner willing to build a real NHL arena, then sure they're in the hunt. But what pushes Hartford to the front of the line ahead of Houston, Kansas City, Portland, or even Oklahoma City?GWhale said:
I haven't seen the same sense of urgency.
And the story keeps growing.....
The Connecticut Development Authority (quasi-public finance entity) TODAY has hired CSL out of Plano Texas to do an arena/market study on the proposal.
This information was posted by someone who was there on another board, all I could find was this link on the CDA's website to today's meeting agenda, more proof of how serious this is: http://www.ctcda.com/Agenda for April 3 2006.pdf
The news story on the selection of CSL (which appears to also have a connection to arena architects HOK), will probably be out shortly.
And the story keeps growing.....
The Connecticut Development Authority (quasi-public finance entity) TODAY has hired CSL out of Plano Texas to do an arena/market study on the proposal.
This information was posted by someone who was there on another board, all I could find was this link on the CDA's website to today's meeting agenda, more proof of how serious this is: http://www.ctcda.com/Agenda for April 3 2006.pdf
The news story on the selection of CSL (which appears to also have a connection to arena architects HOK), will probably be out shortly.
The only way I can think of is if a current team goes up for sale and the Hartford investor puts together a better proposal than any other bidder.Troy McClure said:
And the other NHL would have to approve the move correct?
I thought Gottesdeimer said he would put up $25 million for the team, plus build the arena. Not sure that gets the deal done.
Is that the same guy?
I thought Gottesdeimer said he would put up $25 million for the team, plus build the arena. Not sure that gets the deal done.
Is that the same guy?
Troy McClure
Suter will never be scratched
Yeah, all the plans in the world aren't going to matter when the question comes down to which rich guy is willing to pay the most.AdmiralPred said:
Gottesdeimer is doing the right thing by piling up market research to see if he's making a smart decision. Though, he runs the risk of raising up a lot of false hope if he loses the bidding war should a team go up for sale anytime soon.
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
- 14,870
- 6
Panic at the Back said:
Technically the league would have to approve the move, but if a current owner wants to move or a new ownership group meets the NHL standards for ownership, it would be very difficult to block the move/sale.
Just ask the NFL and Al Davis. When the league tried to block the Raiders move to LA, they lost and got a bunch of big legal bills.
I would just like to add some things about Hartford to help people understand that the future of the city looks very promising. Perhaps a major reason Hartford went into decline before was because its last renewal project (Constitution Plaza) was a bust and it finally caught up to them. It wasn't done properly, and the main problem was that they didn't build any living space downtown. This time, however, they're doing it right. Hartford 21, Trumbull on the Park, and a number of other appartment/condo complexes will support the effort. In addition, there's the new Convention Center, Science Center, and Riverfront Recapture project that are all helping to change the image of the city. Anyone who's seen it lately will recognize that its gotten better.
Also, there was a small mention of professional hockey players coming from Hartford as compared to other places. While the city of Hartford itself may not be known for its hockey players, Hartford is the capital of a state which has hockey ties with a number of successful players (Brian Leetch, Chris Drury, Chris Higgins, etc). While this doesn't mean that the people from other geographic areas won't go to hockey games, I'd say it emphasizes Hartford's advantages. If we are able to send players to the nhl, we must have a pretty solid youth system (and I've been through it, so I know there are a lot of hockey people in all corners of the state). I just don't see the interest in cities that don't have the hockey roots.
I'd like to end this with a "Go Whalers!" but that wouldn't be proper. They went 9 years ago. Now they're coming back!
Also, there was a small mention of professional hockey players coming from Hartford as compared to other places. While the city of Hartford itself may not be known for its hockey players, Hartford is the capital of a state which has hockey ties with a number of successful players (Brian Leetch, Chris Drury, Chris Higgins, etc). While this doesn't mean that the people from other geographic areas won't go to hockey games, I'd say it emphasizes Hartford's advantages. If we are able to send players to the nhl, we must have a pretty solid youth system (and I've been through it, so I know there are a lot of hockey people in all corners of the state). I just don't see the interest in cities that don't have the hockey roots.
I'd like to end this with a "Go Whalers!" but that wouldn't be proper. They went 9 years ago. Now they're coming back!
Voice of Reason
Registered User
newhavenbeast said:
All good points except Constitution Plaza was built in the early 1960s. At the time, it was seen as a great example of how cities could create a modern architected, multi-purpose, state of the art center in the middle of a downtown. The project displaced a neighborhood (the original "Little Italy" of Hartford before it moved to Frankiln Ave) and there was minimal residences in downtown.
I would agree with your assessment that, long term, Const. Plaza had a negative impact on Hartford, but its decline took off in earnest with the real estate bust of the late 1980s, early 1990s.
Today's article on the hiring of CSL as arena/sports consultant
http://www.courant.com/news/local/sr/hc-civic0404.artapr04,0,7616081.story
Note there are some problems with the way the article is written. He writes "Then there are those who look at the same center, see the state losing $4 million a year for the next seven years, and want to find a better way.
The second group won a small victory Monday, as the state agency that operates the Civic Center selected a consultant to study whether the state could better manage the center, while making it clear the bigger questions may be beyond its authority."
..when there is no second group. I don't think anyone is happy with the way things are going at the Hartford Civic Center, including hockey fanatics who want a new arena ASAP and those who could care less about sport but want to see tax dollars spent wisely.
The bigger questions may be beyond the CDA's authority, but the state will talk with anyone who wants to bring a team here. The problem is, the current management of the Civic Center would not be supportive (MSG (Cablevision), owner of the Rangers) and people here are not happy with that conflict of interest.
http://www.courant.com/news/local/sr/hc-civic0404.artapr04,0,7616081.story
Note there are some problems with the way the article is written. He writes "Then there are those who look at the same center, see the state losing $4 million a year for the next seven years, and want to find a better way.
The second group won a small victory Monday, as the state agency that operates the Civic Center selected a consultant to study whether the state could better manage the center, while making it clear the bigger questions may be beyond its authority."
..when there is no second group. I don't think anyone is happy with the way things are going at the Hartford Civic Center, including hockey fanatics who want a new arena ASAP and those who could care less about sport but want to see tax dollars spent wisely.
The bigger questions may be beyond the CDA's authority, but the state will talk with anyone who wants to bring a team here. The problem is, the current management of the Civic Center would not be supportive (MSG (Cablevision), owner of the Rangers) and people here are not happy with that conflict of interest.
I think that by not including the full context of your direct quote, you missed that the first group of people are described in the first paragraph. You didn't quote the first paragraph describing the point of view the first group sees.GWhale said:
Sounds like of the two groups, one wants the HCC knocked down and a new place built. And the other wants to see someone better manage the facility so the state, and ultimately, the taxpayers aren't losing $4 million per year.
And of coarse MSG sees this as a conflict of interest. Aren't they trying to convert Connecticut into Rangers followers instead of Bruins fans thus increasing their fan base and marketing power?
Seriously.My bad, I meant to also quote that. I think that both groups are concerned about the way the Hartford Civic Center is being run, that's what I'm getting at, it wasn't a small victory for one side since there's really no disagreement there.
Voice of Reason
Registered User
Not to get too far off course, but is the Hartford Civic Center to only arena left in North America that hasn't sold its naming rights to some corporation? Why is that? I've seen it referred to as MSG-CT, but that's not quite the same thing.
No. But, MSG-CT would be if the State sold naming rights to MSG to call it that. Lambeau Field in Green Bay hasn't sold the naming rights to the staduim but, all of the entrances and various levels obviously have been named. The Bradley Center in Milwaukee is not Harley-Davidson Arena at the BC or anything like that, and there are many other examples where the actual name of the venue hasn't been changed, sponsorship may have been sold, but the name remains the same.Voice of Reason said:
And what about Madison Square Garden? It isn't the Cablevision Center at Madison Square. Or Dolan Coliseum at the Garden.
The Joe?
Last edited:
They didn't deserve their team.Nas_Bert_Morr said:
and
Global warming, it just isn't cold enough for ice in Hartford anymore what with the North Atlantic Current and everything.
Seriously, that question will be better answered by others, if it already hasn't in one of the previous 15 pages of this thread.
Developer Shops For NHL Team
Downtown's Largest Landlord Looks To Build Support For Arena
April 6, 2006
By JEFFREY B. COHEN And PAUL DOYLE, Courant Staff Writers Lawrence R. Gottesdiener - downtown Hartford's largest landlord - said Wednesday that he has begun shopping for an NHL franchise because he thinks the best way to convince investors and politicians to build a new sports arena in the city is to have a team in his portfolio first.
"We're out there looking for a team," said Gottesdiener, head of Northland Investment Corp., which owns roughly $500 million worth of real estate in Hartford. "Hartford is my goal, but you can't bring a professional sports team to a secondary market in this day and age without a brand new, beautiful arena.
"So if that's not available here, then we'll own it somewhere else."
Gottesdiener in late December floated the idea of building a new $250 million sports arena in Hartford, with potentially $25 million of his own money and a significant public subsidy. At the time, he said the goal would be to land an NHL franchise but that a team wasn't a prerequisite.
Wednesday, he said his change of course was driven by the realization that without a team he could not generate serious interest among critical leaders. He also made it clear that there is no bringing hockey to Hartford without a new arena.
"I don't believe the political will is there to make that happen," he said. "Let's think big, let's bring professional sports back to a market that's craving it.'"
In his quest to buy a team, Gottesdiener has hired brokers, is negotiating with consultants, and is eyeing teams that may be ripe for buying, including the Pittsburgh Penguins. He plans to go to Minnesota with Mayor Eddie A. Perez for meetings with the owners of the Wild to see how that market lost a hockey team and got one back.
"They lost it, got it back, and it's excelling," he said.
Hartford lost an NHL franchise, the Whalers, in 1997. Even if Gottesdiener were to secure a team, many other players would have to get on board before the first puck is dropped. One critical ingredient would be public money.
A spokesman for Gov. M. Jodi Rell said Wednesday that her office preferred not to comment. House Speaker James Amann, D-Milford, said a team would make an arena an easier sell.
"It's much easier that way than to say, `If you build it, they will come,'" Amann said.
Another critical ingredient would be corporate support, which Gottesdiener says he has yet to evaluate.
"I don't think there's any doubt that there's some number of companies that would welcome this, who would ... buy a [corporate] box," said R. Nelson "Oz" Griebel, head of the MetroHartford Alliance. "But I don't think that's the real question."
"The real question is how many of them are there."
Any franchise sale or relocation would have to be approved by the NHL's board of governors, which represents each of the 30 teams. League Commissioner Gary Bettman told reporters last month the league has no relocation or expansion plans.
The Penguins are the most obvious target for relocation, and the only team Gottesdiener named.
The Penguins are seeking a new arena and the ownership group headed by Mario Lemieux is selling the team. Negotiations on the potential new arena are ongoing, and Lemieux said in December there is a "slim chance" the franchise will remain in Pittsburgh without a new arena.
"The advantage of Pittsburgh is that it's on the market and its lease is up," Gottesdiener said.
Other potential targets are less evident. The New York Islanders have the lowest attendance in the NHL and play in the antiquated Nassau Coliseum, but billionaire owner Charles Wang lives on Long Island and plans to renovate the arena.
The Nashville Predators and Atlanta Thrashers are near the bottom of the league in attendance, but both teams are locally owned and not for sale. The Florida Panthers' attendance is in the lower half of the league, but there has not been talk of the team's being available.
Gottesdiener isn't the only hockey suitor - Kansas City, Houston and Winnipeg are cities with new or soon-to-be opened arenas in search of a team.
Should an NHL team not be in Gottesdiener's future, he's willing to be flexible, he said.
"Right now we're focusing on the NHL," he said. "But if we find ourselves frustrated in that regard, the search will be expanded [to include the NBA]."
Perez said he likes that Gottesdiener is willing to change his mind to better fit the market.
"I think it's smart for anyone to work two angles instead of working just one," said Perez, who says the city could play an important role in a partnership to bring major league hockey back to Hartford.
Renewed talks about hockey in Hartford began late last year with a discussion of the aging Hartford Civic Center. The state leases the city-owned center, has a management contract with Madison Square Garden until 2013, and could lose $4 million a year for the next seven years under current arrangements.
Former Whalers owner Howard Baldwin says the best way to bring an NHL team back to Hartford is to rebuild the market with a better performing American Hockey League team than the Wolf Pack.
"I would never be critical of Larry; he has the right to approach it whatever way he thinks is best," Baldwin said Wednesday of Gottesdiener. But, he added, "teams aren't low-hanging fruit," and one can't just go out and buy a hockey team.
"I think the way it has to happen is you've got to build it from the ground up," he said.
Downtown's Largest Landlord Looks To Build Support For Arena
April 6, 2006
By JEFFREY B. COHEN And PAUL DOYLE, Courant Staff Writers Lawrence R. Gottesdiener - downtown Hartford's largest landlord - said Wednesday that he has begun shopping for an NHL franchise because he thinks the best way to convince investors and politicians to build a new sports arena in the city is to have a team in his portfolio first.
"We're out there looking for a team," said Gottesdiener, head of Northland Investment Corp., which owns roughly $500 million worth of real estate in Hartford. "Hartford is my goal, but you can't bring a professional sports team to a secondary market in this day and age without a brand new, beautiful arena.
"So if that's not available here, then we'll own it somewhere else."
Gottesdiener in late December floated the idea of building a new $250 million sports arena in Hartford, with potentially $25 million of his own money and a significant public subsidy. At the time, he said the goal would be to land an NHL franchise but that a team wasn't a prerequisite.
Wednesday, he said his change of course was driven by the realization that without a team he could not generate serious interest among critical leaders. He also made it clear that there is no bringing hockey to Hartford without a new arena.
"I don't believe the political will is there to make that happen," he said. "Let's think big, let's bring professional sports back to a market that's craving it.'"
In his quest to buy a team, Gottesdiener has hired brokers, is negotiating with consultants, and is eyeing teams that may be ripe for buying, including the Pittsburgh Penguins. He plans to go to Minnesota with Mayor Eddie A. Perez for meetings with the owners of the Wild to see how that market lost a hockey team and got one back.
"They lost it, got it back, and it's excelling," he said.
Hartford lost an NHL franchise, the Whalers, in 1997. Even if Gottesdiener were to secure a team, many other players would have to get on board before the first puck is dropped. One critical ingredient would be public money.
A spokesman for Gov. M. Jodi Rell said Wednesday that her office preferred not to comment. House Speaker James Amann, D-Milford, said a team would make an arena an easier sell.
"It's much easier that way than to say, `If you build it, they will come,'" Amann said.
Another critical ingredient would be corporate support, which Gottesdiener says he has yet to evaluate.
"I don't think there's any doubt that there's some number of companies that would welcome this, who would ... buy a [corporate] box," said R. Nelson "Oz" Griebel, head of the MetroHartford Alliance. "But I don't think that's the real question."
"The real question is how many of them are there."
Any franchise sale or relocation would have to be approved by the NHL's board of governors, which represents each of the 30 teams. League Commissioner Gary Bettman told reporters last month the league has no relocation or expansion plans.
The Penguins are the most obvious target for relocation, and the only team Gottesdiener named.
The Penguins are seeking a new arena and the ownership group headed by Mario Lemieux is selling the team. Negotiations on the potential new arena are ongoing, and Lemieux said in December there is a "slim chance" the franchise will remain in Pittsburgh without a new arena.
"The advantage of Pittsburgh is that it's on the market and its lease is up," Gottesdiener said.
Other potential targets are less evident. The New York Islanders have the lowest attendance in the NHL and play in the antiquated Nassau Coliseum, but billionaire owner Charles Wang lives on Long Island and plans to renovate the arena.
The Nashville Predators and Atlanta Thrashers are near the bottom of the league in attendance, but both teams are locally owned and not for sale. The Florida Panthers' attendance is in the lower half of the league, but there has not been talk of the team's being available.
Gottesdiener isn't the only hockey suitor - Kansas City, Houston and Winnipeg are cities with new or soon-to-be opened arenas in search of a team.
Should an NHL team not be in Gottesdiener's future, he's willing to be flexible, he said.
"Right now we're focusing on the NHL," he said. "But if we find ourselves frustrated in that regard, the search will be expanded [to include the NBA]."
Perez said he likes that Gottesdiener is willing to change his mind to better fit the market.
"I think it's smart for anyone to work two angles instead of working just one," said Perez, who says the city could play an important role in a partnership to bring major league hockey back to Hartford.
Renewed talks about hockey in Hartford began late last year with a discussion of the aging Hartford Civic Center. The state leases the city-owned center, has a management contract with Madison Square Garden until 2013, and could lose $4 million a year for the next seven years under current arrangements.
Former Whalers owner Howard Baldwin says the best way to bring an NHL team back to Hartford is to rebuild the market with a better performing American Hockey League team than the Wolf Pack.
"I would never be critical of Larry; he has the right to approach it whatever way he thinks is best," Baldwin said Wednesday of Gottesdiener. But, he added, "teams aren't low-hanging fruit," and one can't just go out and buy a hockey team.
"I think the way it has to happen is you've got to build it from the ground up," he said.
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