The Pittsburgh/Detroit back-to-back Cup Finals in retrospect

[DesertPenguin]

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedotenko-Malkin-Talbot
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy
Dupuis-Adams-Satan/Sykora

That was the 2009 Pens forward group. I still marval at that group. Sid, Geno, Staal center depth won them that Cup. Everyone else...passengers at the right place and time.

Was your defense something like Letang, goligoski, gonchar, orpik, scuderi eaton?
Add Hossa going to Detroit to play with Prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg, it's not a shock that a team with Lidstrom and Rafalski as your top pairing won the west, with the Hawks a year away from being good.

I believe it was…

Gonchar – Orpik
Eaton – Letang
Gill – Scuderi

With Boucher dressing as a 7th for a couple of games.

That was not an impressive team on paper.

That was the 2009 Pens forward group. I still marval at that group. Sid, Geno, Staal center depth won them that Cup. Everyone else...passengers at the right place and time.[/QUOTE]

Goligoski was just coming into the league at that time. When Ovie went knee on knee with Gonchar and tore his... MCL? Goligoski started playing after that as the 7th D, along with Boucher at times. They went with 7D to limit Gonchar's minutes and just double shifted Crosby/Malkin/Staal on the 4th, which is pretty much a no brainer with that trio early in their careers.

Up front, the Pens lost Malone and Hossa to free agency and replaced them with Fedotenko and Satan, respectively, which was a serious downgrade. Meanwhile Sykora's game fell off, probably due to Byslma's more open system.

Kris Letang started to emerge that season while Ryan Whitney was on the shelf for foot surgery, which allowed them to deal Whitney for Kunitz in February, then get Guerin for a second at the deadline. Both were a huge boost for them.

Meanwhile Fleury honestly wasn't nearly as good that season and playoffs as last, Game 7 Stanley Cup heroics not withstanding.

I remember sitting there in the offseason watching Hossa go to DET and Malone leave and thinking we were toast.

 

[JackSlater]

Here is the official release from the NHL: Potential Stanley Cup Final start dates

"If both Conference Final series have been decided by Tuesday, May 26, the Western Conference winner would host Game 1 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Final on Thursday, May 28.Otherwise, Game 1 will be played on Friday, June 5."

Had the Wings won the WCF on May 24, they would have been playing on Thursday, May 28 giving the Pens zero days off assuming they would have travelled on May 27 to Detroit. That would have been very advantageous to the Wings. Since the Wings played on May 27, that took the May 28 start off the table leaving a June 5 start which would have been 9 days off for both teams before the start of the SCF.

It seems very reasonable to start the SCF on May 30 rather than wait another six days.

If they had waited, would you say that it would have been an advantage to the Wings if the series started on the date originally scheduled?

Would you still feel the Wings were put at a disadvantage if had started in May 28 giving them two less days for injuries to heal?

Hopefully a sense that this whole start date thing is meaningless is rising to the surface.

Your post has nothing to do with what I said, so I don't know why you quoted me. Moving the series up was obviously advantageous for the healthier team. The reasons for moving it up are not at issue in my post.

 

[daver]

Your post has nothing to do with what I said, so I don't know why you quoted me. Moving the series up was obviously advantageous for the healthier team. The reasons for moving it up are not at issue in my post.

But it wasn't moved up. The start date was TBD. There is no way for you to phrase this without it coming across as a weak excuse as to why the Wings lost which was theme of the thread that you originally mentioned this.

 

[JackSlater]

But it wasn't moved up. The start date was TBD. There is no way for you to phrase this without it coming across as a weak excuse as to why the Wings lost which was theme of the thread that you originally mentioned this.

I don't know whether you are lying or you are seriously blocking out what happened. You yourself posted the press release. Here is what it said:

"NEW YORK – The National Hockey League announced today the possible start dates for the 2009 Stanley Cup Final.
If both Conference Final series have been decided by Tuesday, May 26, the Western Conference winner would host Game 1 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Final on Thursday, May 28. Otherwise, Game 1 will be played on Friday, June 5.
Dates, start times and broadcast information will be released when available."

Considering that the Western Conference finals was decided on May 27, which is after the date indicated by the NHL's press release, and the first game was May 30, the NHL literally moved the finals up. It isn't something that is debatable - it happened. Now that we've established that it did happen, I will reiterate the obvious, that moving the series was an advantage for the healthier team. This point is also something that really isn't debatable, and yet it lead to some of the absolute worst posts I have ever seen in this section. Of course I am now even more confused about how you could post the evidence that the NHL moved the start date and claim in the same post that it didn't happen.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Yeah, you can't really argue that they moved it ahead of the originally posted date in the circumstances that occurred. (The fact the series would have started earlier if the Wings had won the WCF earlier isn't really the pertinent point).

That said, I always felt like in 2009 the Wings were the worse team than Pittsburgh. The 3-1 series lead seemed built on smokes and mirrors, and it didn't surprise me that much when Pittsburgh came back to win it. The 2008 series was already pretty close but the Wings' guile and experience in depth helped them prevail.

 

[daver]

I don't know whether you are lying or you are seriously blocking out what happened. You yourself posted the press release. Here is what it said:

"NEW YORK – The National Hockey League announced today the possible start dates for the 2009 Stanley Cup Final.
If both Conference Final series have been decided by Tuesday, May 26, the Western Conference winner would host Game 1 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Final on Thursday, May 28. Otherwise, Game 1 will be played on Friday, June 5.
Dates, start times and broadcast information will be released when available."

Considering that the Western Conference finals was decided on May 27, which is after the date indicated by the NHL's press release, and the first game was May 30, the NHL literally moved the finals up. It isn't something that is debatable - it happened. Now that we've established that it did happen, I will reiterate the obvious, that moving the series was an advantage for the healthier team. This point is also something that really isn't debatable, and yet it lead to some of the absolute worst posts I have ever seen in this section. Of course I am now even more confused about how you could post the evidence that the NHL moved the start date and claim in the same post that it didn't happen.

I'll ask this question again:

If the series started on June 5 would you say that the unusual length of time between the CFs and the SCF was advantageous to the Wings given their injuries?

 

[JackSlater]

I'll ask this question again:

If the series started on June 5 would you say that the unusual length of time between the CFs and the SCF was advantageous to the Wings given their injuries?

You didn't ask that yet, so it isn't asking again. Obviously not moving the series up and playing it at the announced time would have been advantageous to Detroit given the injury situation.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'll ask this question again:

If the series started on June 5 would you say that the unusual length of time between the CFs and the SCF was advantageous to the Wings given their injuries?

So wouldn't that be one of the rights of the team that earned home ice??? No and a big part of this was a Mick Jagger concert if I remember right, sorry Pittsburgh a year after being in the cup finals why are you booking that date to begin with, that never made sense either...But they also wanted to avoid the NBA finals as well if I remember right. Which is why stalling to accommodate what was happening in Pittsburgh mid-series didn't work for them. But my opinion is Detroit should have been consulted since it wasn't their fault this was playing out that way.

It is what it is. But as a Wings fan we don't need to be generous about that change. The finals were starting on Monday this year, they said it regardless of what happened in Game 6. That is pretty typical or the two date model you showed. What they have never done outside of a year with a war is move that second potential date up outside of the 09' cup year. You can get overly aggressive and say it was to hand the poster boy of the league a cup. I didn't go that far, but I also get to be pretty annoyed they did it to the team I root for. Twice in the history of the league they have done it, so it really stinks when it happens to your team. Also annoying is the days off which you were supposed to have and having earned home ice all of a sudden the schedule is being set by the limitations of the other team having inappropriately booked their venue. Having more downtime is an advantage to the older team, but it is also how that series should have been setup. This also was brought up during the switch, the Wings didn't hide from the fact they were very displeased with this move before the series even started.

Ultimately the Wings blew the series late, but Lidstrom and Datsyuk would have been very different players with that downtime. Franzen would have skated several days before the series instead of being inserted directly into it. This very much impacted the Wings, but the Pens did what they had to in order to win given the circumstances both teams were given. Credit to them, they were a great team, it isn't to take away from them. I just remain angry with the league decision as a Red Wings fan and I will be forever since it is irreversible.

Since one of the points of this thread is how we were looking forward to it and thought it would happen all year. It stinks that the league shifted the dates adversely impacting one of the teams. It took away from how good one of them would have likely been.

 

[daver]

So wouldn't that be one of the rights of the team that earned home ice??? No and a big part of this was a Mick Jagger concert if I remember right, sorry Pittsburgh a year after being in the cup finals why are you booking that date to begin with, that never made sense either...But they also wanted to avoid the NBA finals as well if I remember right. Which is why stalling to accommodate what was happening in Pittsburgh mid-series didn't work for them. But my opinion is Detroit should have been consulted since it wasn't their fault this was playing out that way.

It is what it is. But as a Wings fan we don't need to be generous about that change. The finals were starting on Monday this year, they said it regardless of what happened in Game 6. That is pretty typical or the two date model you showed. What they have never done outside of a year with a war is move that second potential date up outside of the 09' cup year. You can get overly aggressive and say it was to hand the poster boy of the league a cup. I didn't go that far, but I also get to be pretty annoyed they did it to the team I root for. Twice in the history of the league they have done it, so it really stinks when it happens to your team. Also annoying is the days off which you were supposed to have and having earned home ice all of a sudden the schedule is being set by the limitations of the other team having inappropriately booked their venue. Having more downtime is an advantage to the older team, but it is also how that series should have been setup. This also was brought up during the switch, the Wings didn't hide from the fact they were very displeased with this move before the series even started.

Ultimately the Wings blew the series late, but Lidstrom and Datsyuk would have been very different players with that downtime. Franzen would have skated several days before the series instead of being inserted directly into it. This very much impacted the Wings, but the Pens did what they had to in order to win given the circumstances both teams were given. Credit to them, they were a great team, it isn't to take away from them. I just remain angry with the league decision as a Red Wings fan and I will be forever since it is irreversible.

Since one of the points of this thread is how we were looking forward to it and thought it would happen all year. It stinks that the league shifted the dates adversely impacting one of the teams. It took away from how good one of them would have likely been.

You do know that the series would have started even earlier if the Wings won on May 24th right? The league ended up doing the reasonable thing and pushed the start date back two days and reduced Wings days off from four to three.

This idea that the league should have considered a team's injuries in scheduling is ridiculous.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You do know that the series would have started even earlier if the Wings won on May 24th right? The league ended up doing the reasonable thing and pushed the start date back two days and reduced Wings days off from four to three.

This idea that the league should have considered a team's injuries in scheduling is ridiculous.

Again you are missing the point. The idea that the league did something they have never done outside of WWII was ridiculous. Moving the date off the 5th once it didn't end on the 24th was ridiculous. If you were going to break from your own protocols both teams should have consented, the Wings were clearly against that change in timeline and were pretty open about it at the time that they were displeased.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but Detroit having home ice advantage entitled them to host 4 games out of 7. It did not entitle them to an eight day break in order to heal injuries.

The real issue here is, why on earth would the NHL issue some press release saying the Finals start on X date if the semi final ends on Y date, but they start 8 days later if the semi final ends on Y+1 date? That's just non sensical. It seems to me this is when the NHL first started getting in the habit of needlessly dragging the season out into the middle of June, constant two-day breaks in the Final, etc. I guess there was a maybe a pushback of some sort in 2009. More than two days off between any round serves no purpose.

 

[The Panther]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but Detroit having home ice advantage entitled them to host 4 games out of 7. It did not entitle them to an eight day break in order to heal injuries.

The real issue here is, why on earth would the NHL issue some press release saying the Finals start on X date if the semi final ends on Y date, but they start 8 days later if the semi final ends on Y+1 date? That's just non sensical. It seems to me this is when the NHL first started getting in the habit of needlessly dragging the season out into the middle of June, constant two-day breaks in the Final, etc. I guess there was a maybe a pushback of some sort in 2009. More than two days off between any round serves no purpose.

I agree with all of this. There is no reason in hell to have more than 1 or 2 days off between any series.

The NHL season needs to end no later than May 31st.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The NHL season needs to end no later than May 31st.

Quite arbitrary and really no reason for it. Now that so many franchises are in warm or moderate climates, it's typically summer weather in the 2nd half of May anyway in the involved cities. It's forecast to be mid 80s or warmer over the next week in D.C. and mid 90s and above in Vegas.

 

[The Panther]

Quite arbitrary and really no reason for it. Now that so many franchises are in warm or moderate climates, it's typically summer weather in the 2nd half of May anyway in the involved cities. It's forecast to be mid 80s or warmer over the next week in D.C. and mid 90s and above in Vegas.

It's got to end sometime, right? And believe it or not, despite Bettman's wet dream of NHL franchises in Tahiti, for 90% of hockey fans, the sport remains associated with winter (and that goes for 100% of non-hockey fans). Therefore, why not end things no later than May, the last possible month with any semblance of spring in North America? Makes sense to me. Also clears the decks of hockey prior to the NBA Finals.

Otherwise, why not have the playoffs in July? August? We'll just have 12-months-a-year hockey.

 

[daver]

Again you are missing the point. The idea that the league did something they have never done outside of WWII was ridiculous. Moving the date off the 5th once it didn't end on the 24th was ridiculous. If you were going to break from your own protocols both teams should have consented, the Wings were clearly against that change in timeline and were pretty open about it at the time that they were displeased.

Does the league normally set SCF dates before the end the CFs? I searched for similar press releases from the league for other years and only found a press release after the CFs had finished. Perhaps this was unusual for the league to throw out tentative start dates before the CFs had finished. If they had actually set the dates after the CFs were finished and then changed them, that would have been ridiculous.

You know what else is ridiculous?

Eight days between the CFs and the SCF.

Thinking that three days off between the CF and the SCF is too little especially with no travel needed.

Thinking that the league had the Pens' interests in mind when one of the potential scenarios saw them finishing the ECF on the road on the 26th and then having to go home and then get to Detroit for a game on the 28th.

And the most ridiculous of all, thinking that giving a team more time to heal from injuries is something the league should consider when scheduling a series.

The Wings lost fair and square, all of this talk of injuries in any context is sour grapes.

 

[Rick Kehoe]

That was the 2009 Pens forward group. I still marval at that group. Sid, Geno, Staal center depth won them that Cup. Everyone else...passengers at the right place and time.

Goligoski was just coming into the league at that time. When Ovie went knee on knee with Gonchar and tore his... MCL? Goligoski started playing after that as the 7th D, along with Boucher at times. They went with 7D to limit Gonchar's minutes and just double shifted Crosby/Malkin/Staal on the 4th, which is pretty much a no brainer with that trio early in their careers.

Up front, the Pens lost Malone and Hossa to free agency and replaced them with Fedotenko and Satan, respectively, which was a serious downgrade. Meanwhile Sykora's game fell off, probably due to Byslma's more open system.

Kris Letang started to emerge that season while Ryan Whitney was on the shelf for foot surgery, which allowed them to deal Whitney for Kunitz in February, then get Guerin for a second at the deadline. Both were a huge boost for them.

Meanwhile Fleury honestly wasn't nearly as good that season and playoffs as last, Game 7 Stanley Cup heroics not withstanding.

I remember sitting there in the offseason watching Hossa go to DET and Malone leave and thinking we were toast.[/QUOTE]


MAF was still a key component of Pittsburgh taking home their first Cup since the 1991-92 season. At the end of the day, it's all about results, and while Fleury's GAA increased to 2.61 in the 2009 postseason, he still delivered when it mattered. The last two SC wins in Detroit were similar to what we see today, MAF allowed just two goals, stopping a combined 48 shots on 50 chances. That's a remarkable performance, I wonder how many goaltenders in the HOF won two road SC Final games on the road to clinch a series, allowing only two goals in the process.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's got to end sometime, right? And believe it or not, despite Bettman's wet dream of NHL franchises in Tahiti, for 90% of hockey fans, the sport remains associated with winter (and that goes for 100% of non-hockey fans). Therefore, why not end things no later than May, the last possible month with any semblance of spring in North America? Makes sense to me. Also clears the decks of hockey prior to the NBA Finals.

Otherwise, why not have the playoffs in July? August? We'll just have 12-months-a-year hockey.

Dude, that's an argument from what almost 30 years ago? The Cup was last handed over in May in 1991. I get that as an Oilers fan it's easy to be pretty nostalgic about the 80s, but I don't think hockey in the 90s and onward was in any way negatively affected by having the playoffs end 2 weeks later.

 

[GMR]

I agree with all of this. There is no reason in hell to have more than 1 or 2 days off between any series.

The NHL season needs to end no later than May 31st.

Can we all agree that there's no reason in hell to have back to back games in the SCF?

 

[GMR]

I remember both of these series as being quite fun to watch. I thought the '08 Wings were the better team and the '09 Pens were the better team, and therefore that the better team won both series.

I really liked the Pens in that period because of those three young centers. It was just very unusual, in that era (or for several years prior... or now), to see three such skilled players together at such young ages. Fleury is one of my favorites and he is actually fun to watch play sometimes, unlike most 2000's-era goalies. But I did think the Wings were stronger in '08 and deserved the win.

What I mainly remember about '09 is Max Talbot in game 7. That's such a great example of a mid-level guy stepping it up big-time on the biggest stage. If Talbot wasn't dressed for that game, I think the Red Wings win the 2009 Cup.

I do wish Kris Draper hadn't mouthed-off about Crosby after losing game 7. It was a classless move that someone like Lidstrom wouldn't have made and reflected poorly on the Wings.

I don't disagree with this, and the more so if we're including playoff runs.

For every hero, there's always a goat. Brad Stuart was responsible for both of Talbot's goals. He was a solid defenseman for the Wings for several years, but I never quite forgave him in my mind for that game.

 

[danincanada]

Great timing with this thread. Every year the league releases the Finals schedule is another year that further displays how odd the last minute change up the NHL came up with in ’09 was. What’s been lost here is not only did the NHL change it to an alternate option not mentioned in their wonderful and concise press release, substantially moving the schedule up from where it was originally supposed to be, but they changed it to the MOST RUSHED FINALS IN NHL HISTORY.

What I mean by that is that no finals in the history of the league played the first 3 finals games within only 6 days after the Conference Finals ended. Even in 1940, which is the only other time they started it off with back to back games, there were 7 days in between. Most years post lockout have had 9 and this years finals has 10. In ’09 the CF’s ended on a Wednesday night in Chicago with the game going to OT. Then they started the finals on Saturday and Sunday with back to backs and then game 3 on Tuesday. Like Babcock said in the press conference before the series started, “what’s the rush?”. Last night the CFs ended on a Wednesday night, with Washington in Tampa (very similar scenario). They will have game 1 on Monday, game 2 on Wednesday, and game 3 on Saturday. As a Red Wings fan, I wish they could play over ’09 with that kind of schedule with downtime to prepare for the series and rest in between games.

If anything, it was a real disservice to the Red Wings that the league would make up that schedule last minute. It was clear which team it would benefit. Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Ericsson, and Draper were all on the shelf at the end of the CFs and Rafalski, Cleary, and Hossa all required off season surgery, so they were the walking wounded. Anyone who claims the schedule didn’t impact the series is clearly in denial. I had no issue with the league moving the schedule up either, I just didn’t appreciate the most rushed start to the finals in history when my team were already at a clear disadvantage going in.

This site has a nice layout of playoff schedules over the years and ’09 sticks out like a sore thumb.

NHL Games

 

[The Panther]

...but I don't think hockey in the 90s and onward was in any way negatively affected by having the playoffs end 2 weeks later.

And I think it was.

It's not about the teams. It's about the fans.

And it's not about "80s nostalgia". I would prefer the season ended in April, as it did before I was born. But that's not possible with the number of games now. May is possible.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

And I think it was.

It's not about the teams. It's about the fans.

And it's not about "80s nostalgia". I would prefer the season ended in April, as it did before I was born. But that's not possible with the number of games now. May is possible.

And it escapes me how it affects fans negatively? It seems like some kind of grumpy "argh but in principle!" moping without any real relevance or reasoning provided why anyone else should care.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

And it escapes me how it affects fans negatively? It seems like some kind of grumpy "argh but in principle!" moping without any real relevance or reasoning provided why anyone else should care.

I'm not trying to present my view as the "correct" one, but you asked how scheduling affects fans negatively, so I'll provide my personal experiences.

I typically only watch the Finals when I have a rooting interest. But I'll generally watch the first two or three rounds even if I don't care about the teams. Reason being the last vestiges of spring have passed by and it just feels unnatural to be watching a winter sport when bright summer sunlight is streaming through my window at 9pm. I tend to flip over to the NBA playoffs by this time. There is no reason the Stanley Cup could not be typically presented in the last week of May; the NHL intentionally ensures it drags on for a full two months.

 

[The Panther]

I typically only watch the Finals when I have a rooting interest. But I'll generally watch the first two or three rounds even if I don't care about the teams. Reason being the last vestiges of spring have passed by and it just feels unnatural to be watching a winter sport when bright summer sunlight is streaming through my window at 9pm. I tend to flip over to the NBA playoffs by this time. There is no reason the Stanley Cup could not be typically presented in the last week of May; the NHL intentionally ensures it drags on for a full two months.

I agree, and I basically get bored of it by late May anyway. The NHL playoffs are far too long.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I'm not trying to present my view as the "correct" one, but you asked how scheduling affects fans negatively, so I'll provide my personal experiences.

I typically only watch the Finals when I have a rooting interest. But I'll generally watch the first two or three rounds even if I don't care about the teams. Reason being the last vestiges of spring have passed by and it just feels unnatural to be watching a winter sport when bright summer sunlight is streaming through my window at 9pm. I tend to flip over to the NBA playoffs by this time. There is no reason the Stanley Cup could not be typically presented in the last week of May; the NHL intentionally ensures it drags on for a full two months.

I am not saying no-one feels that way, because clearly some people do. But I don't think it's a concern of a sizable number of people. It just feels like one of those ornery old-timer complaints, like how nobody is reading newspapers anymore. So I am not surprised that regulars in the history forum may be more inclined to feel that way.

I mean at least when people talk about the baseball season going on too long it's a real pragmatic concern as it's an outdoor sport relying on dry conditions, and many of the teams are playing in climates that turn wet and cold in October.

But hockey is played indoors..and most franchises are now in the U.S. and not even the northernmost parts of it. It's played in Los Angeles, Anaheim, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix..places where it can be 'summer' throughout the entire season. We have artificial ice. If it came down to 'natural', then the NHL should be playing only on frozen ponds in subarctic and arctic climates.

I also view basketball and hockey as sibling sports and find it perfectly normal for both sports to have mostly parallel seasons and playoffs. After all basketball was invented as a winter sport and designed to be played indoors when it was too cold to go outside. The sport that succeeds them in my attention is baseball. But of course baseball starts in early April already..when it is way too cold and grim in many locations to enjoy it actually.