The Pittsburgh/Detroit back-to-back Cup Finals in retrospect

[Big Daddy Cane]

On paper it's one of the weaker cup winners of the era. But it was also Malkin and Crosby at the top of their games. They dragged that team to a cup win.

I still think Malkin’s 08-09 season is the best of the Crosby/Ovechkin-era all things considered. 149 total points with a combination of Sykora, Fedotenko and Talbot as EV linemates is incredible, even considering Crosby often drew the more difficult matchups where they existed.

 

[Machinehead]

Seems like another thinly viewed veiled "bash the NBA" thread.

 

[Amen evil king]

I still think Malkin’s 08-09 season is the best of the Crosby/Ovechkin-era all things considered. 149 total points with a combination of Sykora, Fedotenko and Talbot as EV linemates is incredible, even considering Crosby often drew the more difficult matchups where they existed.

I share this opinion. It was one of the few seasons where Malkin, Crosby, and Ovechkin were all healthy and at the top of their games, and against the odds it was Malkin that came away with both the Art Ross and the Conn Smythe. From memory Malkin also led or was near the top of the league in takeaways that year. Just an incredible year.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think the Red Wings would have likely repeated, if Lidstrom and Datsyuk weren’t in the worst ways. They were really injured that spring. Filppula just couldn’t contain Malkin the way Datsyuk could, and Malkin went big in the finals as a result.

That or if the NHL hadn't done something they had only done once in their history (because of WWII mind you) and moved the Stanley Cup forward because of a concert in Pittsburgh. Making worse Detroit had earned home ice and certainly would have preferred more off time. They openly campaigned for it, knowing that they days off were crucial to both Lidstrom and Datsyuk.

The Penguins should be proud, they won it. But people in Detroit should never embrace what happened there. It was utterly ridiculous. The league did something they shouldn't have been doing and it can be legitimately argued it impacted the Red Wings adversely. I understand every other teams fanbase saying you have sour grapes. But I will never look at that as a legitimate decision and will always blame the league for the outcome of that series and cry foul until the day they put me in the ground. That is my right also, I freaking hate that series.

I think we can count on it happening again at some point. It will be interesting to see it happen again in my opinion. I actually find it more unusual when you have teams that own their period of time and don't meet. Like Chicago vs Pittsburgh for instance, they were both good for the same time but never seemed to find a way to hook up mostly on Pittsburgh there.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Pittsburgh had way too much firepower to be kept down at that time, and Detroit was a defensive monster with the two best two-way forwards in the game as their 1-2 punch. They were pretty much destined to meet like that.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Hard to believe that was 9-10 years ago

 

[c9777666]

Seems like another thinly viewed veiled "bash the NBA" thread.

Nah, it's a 'Why don't we get more NHL rematches?' thread.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I don't remember it getting much talk at all for whatever reason, but Boston-Chicago rematch in 2014 would have been a very defensible prediction.

I think a lot of the time, at least in the last 25 years of so, one of the finalists is somewhat of a surprise. So them getting back there a second time in a row is quite unlikely.

 

[Chili]

Lasting memory of 2009 was Fleury getting lit up and pulled in game five. As he was going down the runway, Petr Sykora pulls him aside and tells him that he will comeback and win the series. A healthy scratch for the game, finding a way to still show leadership and make a contribution.

And Talbot`s great game seven.

 

[The Panther]

I remember both of these series as being quite fun to watch. I thought the '08 Wings were the better team and the '09 Pens were the better team, and therefore that the better team won both series.

I really liked the Pens in that period because of those three young centers. It was just very unusual, in that era (or for several years prior... or now), to see three such skilled players together at such young ages. Fleury is one of my favorites and he is actually fun to watch play sometimes, unlike most 2000's-era goalies. But I did think the Wings were stronger in '08 and deserved the win.

What I mainly remember about '09 is Max Talbot in game 7. That's such a great example of a mid-level guy stepping it up big-time on the biggest stage. If Talbot wasn't dressed for that game, I think the Red Wings win the 2009 Cup.

I do wish Kris Draper hadn't mouthed-off about Crosby after losing game 7. It was a classless move that someone like Lidstrom wouldn't have made and reflected poorly on the Wings.

I still think Malkin’s 08-09 season is the best of the Crosby/Ovechkin-era all things considered. 149 total points...

I don't disagree with this, and the more so if we're including playoff runs.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

That or if the NHL hadn't done something they had only done once in their history (because of WWII mind you) and moved the Stanley Cup forward because of a concert in Pittsburgh. Making worse Detroit had earned home ice and certainly would have preferred more off time. They openly campaigned for it, knowing that they days off were crucial to both Lidstrom and Datsyuk.

The Penguins should be proud, they won it. But people in Detroit should never embrace what happened there. It was utterly ridiculous. The league did something they shouldn't have been doing and it can be legitimately argued it impacted the Red Wings adversely. I understand every other teams fanbase saying you have sour grapes. But I will never look at that as a legitimate decision and will always blame the league for the outcome of that series and cry foul until the day they put me in the ground. That is my right also, I freaking hate that series.

I think we can count on it happening again at some point. It will be interesting to see it happen again in my opinion. I actually find it more unusual when you have teams that own their period of time and don't meet. Like Chicago vs Pittsburgh for instance, they were both good for the same time but never seemed to find a way to hook up mostly on Pittsburgh there.

I would have gladly traded moving the series start back for the officials to actually enforce the rules on Detroit

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I would have gladly traded moving the series start back for the officials to actually enforce the rules on Detroit

In a series where Pittsburgh played with an extra man for over a minute???

The accidental obstruction case has been charged against the best team in the league back then and still is today. The Hawks got hit with the same thing. System movement where you're entitled to ice and rub the defense in a direction is legal, because the offensive player earned the ice. it is what it is. But the obstruction claim on Detroit led by Eddie O in the States and hilariously forgot once the Hawks took over the mantle is an old bit. Good teams control the flow of play. The great teams almost always do this, Tampa is great at it right now.

Call the games how you want, maybe it goes different. We don't know. But it isn't tough as a Detroit fan to point out the league made a change they didn't see fit outside of a war year once in the 100 year history of the league to say, huh??? Conspiracy theory that if you want, I really don't care. The point was I won't forget it and I am entitled to that opinion. If you do something only twice a century it does stick out...

 

[bambamcam4ever]

In a series where Pittsburgh played with an extra man for over a minute???

The accidental obstruction case has been charged against the best team in the league back then and still is today. The Hawks got hit with the same thing. System movement where you're entitled to ice and rub the defense in a direction is legal, because the offensive player earned the ice. it is what it is. But the obstruction claim on Detroit led by Eddie O in the States and hilariously forgot once the Hawks took over the mantle is an old bit. Good teams control the flow of play. The great teams almost always do this, Tampa is great at it right now.

Call the games how you want, maybe it goes different. We don't know. But it isn't tough as a Detroit fan to point out the league made a change they didn't see fit outside of a war year once in the 100 year history of the league to say, huh??? Conspiracy theory that if you want, I really don't care. The point was I won't forget it and I am entitled to that opinion. If you do something only twice a century it does stick out...

1) Compared to the Wings playing with four extra men for a decade+?

In all seriousness, from what I can tell the Pens had an extra man for 21 seconds. That seems a lot different than "over a minute," so this use of hyperbole (or lying) is already a blow to your credibility. Seems like you don't remember the series that well.

2) I'm well aware that the Hawks got away with copious amounts of obstruction. You can probably search my posts calling them the new Red Wings. One big difference though is that the league was still enforcing the rules on interference until 2011 or so, except on one team. Plus, the complaint with the Red Wings wasn't as much the picks they ran (which is a penalty regardless of if it was their system or not) but the interference away from the puck in the NZ and DZ. Plus the special treatment #5 & #13 got, allowing them to do pretty much whatever they wanted with their sticks.

Also, for someone so upset about a too many men call missed, no mention of the missed penalty shot calls for covering the puck in the crease in games 1 and 2?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

1) Compared to the Wings playing with four extra men for a decade+?

In all seriousness, from what I can tell the Pens had an extra man for 21 seconds. That seems a lot different than "over a minute," so this use of hyperbole (or lying) is already a blow to your credibility. Seems like you don't remember the series that well.

2) I'm well aware that the Hawks got away with copious amounts of obstruction. You can probably search my posts calling them the new Red Wings. One big difference though is that the league was still enforcing the rules on interference until 2011 or so, except on one team. Plus, the complaint with the Red Wings wasn't as much the picks they ran (which is a penalty regardless of if it was their system or not) but the interference away from the puck in the NZ and DZ. Plus the special treatment #5 & #13 got, allowing them to do pretty much whatever they wanted with their sticks.

Also, for someone so upset about a too many men call missed, no mention of the missed penalty shot calls for covering the puck in the crease in games 1 and 2?

Glad you clocked it, how ridiculous is it to play for that long with an entire bench screaming...

If your answer goes beyond 5 seconds I guess you have a different expectation.

I have never seen it last that long before or since. Seriously if you want to run the league hooks up the Wings, you should look outside this series. Go with they earned it, but there is really no other way to look at the move up and some of the other strange happenings as strangely unfortunate or well something else.. They opened themselves up for it. I don't care to be sold something else, but again I don't need to feel any different, the strange behavior and qualifications can run rampant. It doesn't change the fact that twice in a century is all it has happened. Malkin's rescinded automatic suspension and a turning point right after a prolonged too many men on the ice. Those happened, they happened unequivocally, make whatever argument you wish, but that is crappy evidence if you want to sell it positively, certainly not something Detroit fans need to stomach without a sneer.

 

[daver]

That or if the NHL hadn't done something they had only done once in their history (because of WWII mind you) and moved the Stanley Cup forward because of a concert in Pittsburgh. Making worse Detroit had earned home ice and certainly would have preferred more off time. They openly campaigned for it, knowing that they days off were crucial to both Lidstrom and Datsyuk.

The time off between the end of the CF and the start of the SCF was hardly unprecedented nor unfair. Players being injured should be given zero consideration in scheduling a playoff series. The Pens beat the Wings fair and square, talk of injuries and unfair scheduling is simply sour grapes.

 

[daver]

I recall the first two games of each series being almost night and day. In 2008, the Wings put on a clinic and one was left with the impression that them winning was an inevitability. Even though the Wings won the first two in 2009, the games could have easily gone the other way which I am sure gave the Pens the confidence they needed.

 

[c9777666]

The stars aligned in 2008-09 for the PIT/DET rematch in a way we haven't since Isles-Oilers.

It's amazing to think 30+ years there would have been another rematch or two and the stars aligned again, but..... they haven't

Rangers/Blackhawks a few years back was realistic, but while one team would make it through, the other lost a conference finals home game 7.

Just goes to show how hard it is for everything to fall into place for two teams to play each other in back-to-back years.

Between expansion and the WHA merger, we had as many Cup Final rematches (Habs-Blues, Boston-Montreal) in a shorter timespan than in the ensuing 30+ years.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The time off between the end of the CF and the start of the SCF was hardly unprecedented nor unfair. Players being injured should be given zero consideration in scheduling a playoff series. The Pens beat the Wings fair and square, talk of injuries and unfair scheduling is simply sour grapes.

They have moved a series up precisely twice in the 100 year history of the league and the other one was due to a war. That isn't fair, especially when it adversely impacts a team that earned home ice all year and was openly displeased with moving the finals up.

 

[daver]

They have moved a series up precisely twice in the 100 year history of the league and the other one was due to a war. That isn't fair, especially when it adversely impacts a team that earned home ice all year and was openly displeased with moving the finals up.

If you look at the amount of time in between the end of the CFs and the SCF over the last 30 years, the # of days off in 2009 was not unusual. Regardless, injuries are part of the game, you don't delay the start of a series because one team needs to heal up. If Detroit took care of the Hawks like the Pens did the Caines then they would have had more time off.

 

[JackSlater]

That or if the NHL hadn't done something they had only done once in their history (because of WWII mind you) and moved the Stanley Cup forward because of a concert in Pittsburgh. Making worse Detroit had earned home ice and certainly would have preferred more off time. They openly campaigned for it, knowing that they days off were crucial to both Lidstrom and Datsyuk.

The Penguins should be proud, they won it. But people in Detroit should never embrace what happened there. It was utterly ridiculous. The league did something they shouldn't have been doing and it can be legitimately argued it impacted the Red Wings adversely. I understand every other teams fanbase saying you have sour grapes. But I will never look at that as a legitimate decision and will always blame the league for the outcome of that series and cry foul until the day they put me in the ground. That is my right also, I freaking hate that series.

I think we can count on it happening again at some point. It will be interesting to see it happen again in my opinion. I actually find it more unusual when you have teams that own their period of time and don't meet. Like Chicago vs Pittsburgh for instance, they were both good for the same time but never seemed to find a way to hook up mostly on Pittsburgh there.

No no no, the stance of several on this forum is that somehow moving the series up did not adversely affect the far more injured team. Despite all logic and with no actual reasons given, that is their belief.

 

[daver]

No no no, the stance of several on this forum is that somehow moving the series up did not adversely affect the far more injured team. Despite all logic and with no actual reasons given, that is their belief.

Just to clarify, if they did not announce a SCF start date before the CFs were over and simply scheduled the games with the same three days off in between, you would not be complaining?

 

[ShelbyZ]

Yeah, looking at their contract chart from 2008 makes me realize this is accurate. Hasek was the only notable UFA on that 2008 team, they only lost him, Drake (retired) and some guy named Hartigan.

Outside of UFA's and retirement the other absences were:

Andreas Lilja - Got a concussion after getting KO'd in a fight with Shea Weber a few days before the trade deadline. They initially thought it was short term (otherwise Holland might have gone out and gotten a rental dman), but he ended up being out for an entire calendar year.

Darren McCarty - He started 08/09 as basically their 13th forward, but went up and down from GR to Detroit because with their cap situation they couldn't carry 23 guys when everyone was healthy. Then he missed a few months with a groin injury. Once healthy, he never played for Detroit again, as he had rightfully been passed on the depth chart by Abdelkader, Leino and especially Helm, who everyone knew would be a regular once the playoffs rolled around.

That said, and more to your point, it's arguable how much impact, if any, those losses had. Outside of two wins, Hasek was a non factor. The skaters were all bit parts, Lilja a 3rd pairing/PK dman, Drake and McCarty were 4th line wingers and Hartigan was basically a spare center. The only element missing from those guys would've been experience, as most of their replacements were rookies for 08-09:

Lilja -> Rookie Ericsson, who provided similar size/physical play
Drake and McCarty -> More minutes/responsibility to a technically still rookie Helm - Kopecky (who was hurt for the entire 2008 playoffs) - Rookie Abdelkader (who took over for Kopecky after he went down and missed the rest of the 09 playoffs) All of whom provided grit/physical play
Hartigan -> Rookie Leino (although IIRC, Abdelkader filled in more as the 5th center while Leino mostly played winger)

Hilariously enough, I think an arguement could be made that the better team lost in each finals due to injuries. 08 Malkin was playing with broken ribs, and in 09 the Wings had Hossa with a torn rotator cuff, Datsyuk nursing wrist and ankle injuries looking like a shell of his usual self, and Lidstrom literally having to get stitches for a Torn Scrotum (not kidding/trying to be funny) after Sharp nut shotted him in the WCF

That’s 3 of Detroit’s 4 best players, and another valuable performer, Franzen, had Gary Robert turn his brain to mush.

The Red Wings were also missing Kris Draper for most of those playoffs, who despite his age, was still one of the better 3rd/4th line/PK defensive centers in the league at the time. IIRC, Datsyuk and Drapers injuries overlapped, which means the Wings were slim down the middle without two of their best FO and PK centers, and caused them to have to go with Helm and Abdelkader at 3C and 4C respectively. I think Draper was still hurt when he came back against the Pens as well.

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

After underachieving in the playoffs the previous year and winning the President's Trophy that year, it was the year that San Jose was supposed to win the Cup. Detroit was supposed to be their biggest challenger in the west but I remember San Jose being favoured.

 

[JackSlater]

Just to clarify, if they did not announce a SCF start date before the CFs were over and simply scheduled the games with the same three days off in between, you would not be complaining?

I'm not even complaining about it. I'm not one of those who says that the league was out to hand Pittsburgh the trophy (a ridiculous conspiracy theory) or even that it was unfair. I am saying that it was an advantage for the healthier team to have the series moved up, whether the reasons were legitimate (they seem to have been) or not. That shouldn't be a controversial thing to say and yet the resistance toward it produced many of the worst posts I have ever seen in this subforum.

 

[daver]

I'm not even complaining about it. I'm not one of those who says that the league was out to hand Pittsburgh the trophy (a ridiculous conspiracy theory) or even that it was unfair. I am saying that it was an advantage for the healthier team to have the series moved up, whether the reasons were legitimate (they seem to have been) or not. That shouldn't be a controversial thing to say and yet the resistance toward it produced many of the worst posts I have ever seen in this subforum.

Here is the official release from the NHL: Potential Stanley Cup Final start dates

"If both Conference Final series have been decided by Tuesday, May 26, the Western Conference winner would host Game 1 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Final on Thursday, May 28.Otherwise, Game 1 will be played on Friday, June 5."

Had the Wings won the WCF on May 24, they would have been playing on Thursday, May 28 giving the Pens zero days off assuming they would have travelled on May 27 to Detroit. That would have been very advantageous to the Wings. Since the Wings played on May 27, that took the May 28 start off the table leaving a June 5 start which would have been 9 days off for both teams before the start of the SCF.

It seems very reasonable to start the SCF on May 30 rather than wait another six days.

If they had waited, would you say that it would have been an advantage to the Wings if the series started on the date originally scheduled?

Would you still feel the Wings were put at a disadvantage if had started in May 28 giving them two less days for injuries to heal?

Hopefully a sense that this whole start date thing is meaningless is rising to the surface.