The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

[ThatGuy22]

I'm not saying they don't have the mechanisms. They don't care to use one. The league and owners don't care about a cap in the playoffs (this is why I mentioned players not collecting a salary during this time).

There would be cons to implementing one as well, such as a complete lack of trade deadline activity (which has already been mentioned). A severe lack of player movement in season at all, for that matter. It would make things less exciting.

I have zero issue with the way the system is currently set up. The NHL existed for 87 years without a salary cap and fans were perfectly fine with it. Now fans seem to want to focus more on the cap than anything else. Just enjoy the sport, the excitement, and the stroylines.

They didn't care before. At least a subsection cares now if reporting is to believed.

Whether its enough to make changes will be TBD.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

They haven't done it yet, because it hadn't become a problem.

Then Chicago did it in 2015 and won a cup. That raised eyebrows.

Then Tampa did it last year, and won a cup. Raised them even more.

Then Vegas got themselves into such a convoluted cap situation attempting to copy cat, that they attempted an illegal trade for players they could LTIR and very likely have healthy players that could play sitting on LTIR(Martinez was practicing in full contact Jersey as early as January according to reports). Making the entire league look foolish.

It's become a problem now, and likely into the future.

You're right that they can't just install a cap and call it good, but there are any number of solutions that could probably fix this.

Yup. Clearly the league sees this as a problem now. It is no longer being ignored. Whether or not there's enough driving force to change is unknown. But this is the first time it's being discussed so it's moving in the right direction. This is basically the Kovalchuk situation again, the spirit of the cap will overwrite all the loop holes.

 

[Price is Wright]

The league will likely fix this by making it easier to circumvent the cap, not harder.

 

[Machinehead]

The sole purpose of it is to keep players’ salaries down.

Same thing.

 

[budzz]

The basic premise of LTIR is still valid. If half way through the season, Edmonton were to lose MacDavid, and was out 3 months or more, it is absolutely reasonable to allow the LTIR and allow them to go over the cap and ice a competitive team. But then completely eliminating that salary cap framework that every team in the league has to follow the day the playoffs start removes the competitive balance. Especially this trading contracts for players in nursing homes crap. It promotes the shenanigans we are starting to see and it will only get worse. Vegas may well miss the playoffs, and Stone and Martinez may well be soon ready to return. So Vegas has to tell them "we have been waiting to get you back in, we tried, but can't afford you. Sorry your year is done." It just stinks. It also hurts the players ability to add numbers for future contracts (Stone is doing alright but you get the point).

Absolutely no reason the cap should not apply during the playoffs. As many have said the obvious answer is that the same cap hit applies during the playoffs. Only difference is during the season you cannot go over the cap at all. In playoffs you can have as much salary as you want, even coming off LTIR but the team on the ice has to be cap compliant. Simple and somewhat more fair, but still can be exploited by teams at the expense of sitting players and screwing with their careers.

I honestly can't believe this crap is still allowed. What was the total cap hit during playoffs for last years stanley cup winners? And do the lower half earning teams in the league stand a chance against that? Likely not.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I thought it wasn't a problem? That's what TB fans were saying last year. Surprised now it's an issue again. My understanding of those arguments was that it isn't really a loophole. I guess that is incorrect?

 

[These Are The Days]

If you get hurt playing hockey you better make damn sure it isn't serious

 

[PostBradMalone]

The easiest solution to this problem is a tagging mechanism that forces teams to designate a contract or contracts as the replacement for the injured player, with the caveat that those who are tagged as replacements cannot dress once said player is off LTIR unless the team would have been cap compliant on the last day of the regular season with the tagged replacements + injured player all on the active roster at the same time:

-Tagging still respects the intent of LTIR, and lets teams replace their injured player for the time they are injured, including during the playoffs.

-Tagging doesn’t limit how teams replace them or the number of dollars/contracts they can replace them with, so GMs still have flexibility in trading, making waiver claims and call ups etc. if a player truly is out long-term.

-Finally, tagging eliminates the need for a playoff cap, which would be incredibly hard to enact given the CBA’s current construction.

Example: Mikko Koskinen ($4.5M) goes on LTIR a week before the trade deadline with the Oilers close to the cap. They trade for a goalie making $2M and a defenseman making $2.5M to try and make up for his absence, then tag those two players as replacements. The two players help Edmonton secure a playoff spot while Koski is out. On the last day of the regular season, the Oilers finish with just $10K in cap room.

Koskinen coincidentally becomes healthy game 1 of the playoffs; under the new rule, he can now dress, but the acquired D and G who were tagged as replacements cannot since all three players would not have been able to on the last day of the regular season.

With there being no cap in the playoffs, there is no negative cap implication for carrying that “dead weight”, and Edmonton cannot complain that they did not benefit from the stopgap additions as they did what they were meant to do- replace Koskinen for the time he was hurt. It would suck to give up assets for rentals who are only eligible to play for a few weeks at most in that scenario, but it’s a necessary evil to prevent teams from gaming LTIR.

 

[me2]

Can someone explain why they want to stop this LTIR abuse but support trade deadline moves using accrued cap?

$80m cap, two teams

One has an $80m roster with an $8m LTIR, the LTIR space being used on a $8m player replacement. LTIR returns for the playoffs, giving you an $88m team.

The other is a $70m team that adds $18m of players at the deadline and ices a $88m team in the playoffs.

This LTIR loophole has the same effect as accruing cap during the year, maybe that should be banned too.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Can someone explain why they want to stop this LTIR abuse but support trade deadline moves using accrued cap?

$80m cap, two teams

One has an $80m roster with an $8m LTIR, the LTIR space being used on a $8m player replacement. LTIR returns for the playoffs, giving you an $88m team.

The other is a $70m team that adds $18m of players at the deadline and ices a $88m team in the playoffs.

This LTIR loophole has the same effect as accruing cap during the year, maybe that should be banned too.

Its a quality point, and one to think about.

But at the end of the day, one team in this scenario paid a roster during the regular season 80 million dollars.

The other paid a team 88 million dollars.(or probably close to it depending on salary differential over the terms of players contracts).

One has been standard practice, that doesn't feel wrong because the teams roughly paid out less than the total cap over the course of the season. This is within the spirit of the Cap.

The other is a new development having teams pay way over the cap over the course of the season, and somewhat obviously abusing the rules. This does not seem to be within the spirit of the cap in my opinion.

The envisioned goal of LTIR is so teams can play close to the cap, and call up minor leaguers if they get into injury trouble. Not so you can stash your star player on it all season, or so you can put a 10 million dollar player with a nagging injury on LTIR in order to acquire another 10 million dollar player.

 

[wetcoast]

Simply put, Cap Circumvention via LTIR

Teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto are using LTIR to bolster their rosters for the playoffs.

Kucherov being out the entire season, giving the Lightning $10.5M in extra cap relief throughout the season. But as soon as the playoffs come around, he can be activated off LTIR without a hiccup and Tampa will be playing in the playoffs with a roster that could have a cap hit north of $95M.

Toronto acquired Riley Nash from Columbus and it won’t count for a cent on their cap since he’s on LTIR and won’t be activated until the playoffs where there is no salary cap.

The Salary cap was created to give smaller market teams a fighting chance against the larger spending, big markets of the NHL. But with this LTIR loophole, it allows teams like Toronto and Tampa Bay extra cap space since in the playoffs, there is no salary cap.


There is a simple solution to this problem, have a salary cap in the playoffs. it would completely negate this loophole.

So Riley Nash might possibly lead the NHL playoffs in scoring this year?

The salary cap being a hard cap is pure BS to keep salaries down and rich markets like Toronto and NYR being allowed to make even more profits they would make in a free capitalist system that the owner so strongly defend when it comes to say tax policies.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

So Riley Nash might possibly lead the NHL playoffs in scoring this year?

The salary cap being a hard cap is pure BS to keep salaries down and rich markets like Toronto and NYR being allowed to make even more profits they would make in a free capitalist system that the owner so strongly defend when it comes to say tax policies.

Look at the date of the post genuis.

 

[wetcoast]

Look at the date of the post genuis.

So okay I gave the post as much serious consideration it might have deserved?

Change this year to any freaking year.

The Kucherov example helps your point the Riley Nash one simply doesn't.

 

[wetcoast]

Look at the date of the post genuis.

So okay I gave the post as much serious consideration it might have deserved?

Change this year to any freaking year.

The Kucherov example helps your point the Riley Nash one simply doesn't.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

So okay I gave the post as much serious consideration it might have deserved?

Change this year to any freaking year.

The Kucherov example helps your point the Riley Nash one simply doesn't.

I already explained everything earlier in the thread so If you want to have a read, feel free. i’m not dealing with people like you again.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think I have more issue with buying LTIR retirement contracts with term and higher cap hits the way Tampa did.

You can't fault a team replacing a player for the physical season and run, but Tampa took it well beyond that and is cap circumvention by way of using it for years as a way to gain 11.0+ swing. An asterisk is well deserving. How the league allowed such a deal so large is ridiculous. All they had to do is say no, it goes beyond what is considered ethical by league standards.

 

[McDuffz88]

There is a very easy solution to this. Keep all the rules the same except for one. Your team should be able to be over the cap in playoffs like it is now BUT the team that you ice should NOT be over the cap. I feel like all you got to do is implement one rule stating whatever team you ice must be cap compliant.

 

[NatoGhost]

I think I have more issue with buying LTIR retirement contracts with term and higher cap hits the way Tampa did.

You can't fault a team replacing a player for the physical season and run, but Tampa took it well beyond that and is cap circumvention by way of using it for years as a way to gain 11.0+ swing. An asterisk is well deserving. How the league allowed such a deal so large is ridiculous. All they had to do is say no, it goes beyond what is considered ethical by league standards.

You guys still don't understand this. The LTIR contracts don't help us. Seabrook? Sure we have up Johnson's 5m so that trade saved us but it would have helped more if Chicago had accepted Tyler Johnson for future considerations.

LTIR does not gain us cap. It puts us over by the amount of his contract. So if Seanrook is 6m instead of being at 80m (at the cap let's say) we're at 86...and we don't accrue cap during the year. For a player who never played for us.

If you compare it to Kucherov sure he was off the cap and then healthy for playoffs and that put us over by that amount. But that's different than the benefit some people seem to misunderstand why teams would trade for LTIR players who will never play again.

 

[Ugene Magic]

You guys still don't understand this. The LTIR contracts don't help us. Seabrook? Sure we have up Johnson's 5m so that trade saved us but it would have helped more if Chicago had accepted Tyler Johnson for future considerations.

LTIR does not gain us cap. It puts us over by the amount of his contract. So if Seanrook is 6m instead of being at 80m (at the cap let's say) we're at 86...and we don't accrue cap during the year. For a player who never played for us.

If you compare it to Kucherov sure he was off the cap and then healthy for playoffs and that put us over by that amount. But that's different than the benefit some people seem to misunderstand why teams would trade for LTIR players who will never play again.

Ofcourse it would be deemed much more palatable had they took him for futures only, and I doubt Chicago was the ones pinning for that Seabrook contract going back.

All Tampa has to do is stay tight to the cap and they can go over it. Which they are.

LTIR USED: $7,714,115

They moved out Johnson's which is 5.0 over a 3/4 year span and add in Seabrook's 6.875, that's a 11.875 cap swing for years to come as long as they stay tight to the cap. That's 100% cap circumvention.

I totally understand how LTIR works. Tampa is abusing it.

 

[mouser]

Ofcourse it would be deemed much more palatable had they took him for futures only, and I doubt Chicago was the ones pinning for that Seabrook contract going back.

All Tampa has to do is stay tight to the cap and they can go over it. Which they are.

LTIR USED: $7,714,115

They moved out Johnson's which is 5.0 over a 3/4 year span and add in Seabrook's 6.875, that's a 11.875 cap swing for years to come as long as they stay tight to the cap. That's 100% cap circumvention.

I totally understand how LTIR works. Tampa is abusing it.

It would appear you don't understand how LTIR works. It's only a $5m swing.

Tampa gained $5m in space by trading away Johnson. Seabrook increased the team's cap usage by $6.875m and TB got $6.875m in LTIR relief, for a net $0 gain in free cap space.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It would appear you don't understand how LTIR works. It's only a $5m swing.

Tampa gained $5m in space by trading away Johnson. Seabrook increased the team's cap usage by $6.875m and TB got $6.875m in LTIR relief, for a net $0 gain in free cap space.

Right. As long as they keep tight to the cap they can exceed it. The actual cap.

Are they using that LTIR? Yes.

When you use the LTIR to exceed the cap that's also counted as part of the swing.

 

[mouser]

Right. As long as they keep tight to the cap they can exceed it. The actual cap.

Are they using that LTIR? Yes.

When you use the LTIR to exceed the cap that's also counted as part of the swing.

You're still not getting it. The $6.875m that Tampa can exceed the cap by is already being spent on Seabrook.

Seabrook's LTIR relief is covering his own contract. The LTIR is not creating any extra free cap space to spend on other players.

Tampa could trade Seabrook away today and it wouldn't change their free cap space by a single dollar.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

If you get hurt playing hockey you better make damn sure it isn't serious

 

[Ugene Magic]

You're still not getting it. The $6.875m that Tampa can exceed the cap by is already being spent on Seabrook.

Seabrook's LTIR relief is covering his own contract. The LTIR is not creating any extra free cap space to spend on other players.

Tampa could trade Seabrook away today and it wouldn't change their free cap space by a single dollar.

Seabrook's LTIR personal salary has no bearing on the team using it as a way to exceed the cap. Player replacement up and to that number while he's out. Which is until that contract expirers.

You keep talking cap dollars when it is LTIR dollars, and they can replace him up to that amount. The only way they couldn't/wouldn't is if he ever was truly going to come back onto/into the roster. He's simply never played a game for them since the trade.

That's simply never going to happen, and they are free to replace him up to that cap hit. Otherwise, why take that contract on. Look at Capfriendly, they exceeded the cap they otherwise would not be able to. They have nobody on LTIR except him.

Look below his name: Salary relief

They would simply not have been cap compliant this season without it. They had zero cap space. They currently have a roster at near the cap limit, had they ever intended to bring him onto the roster they'd have to clear that 6.875.

This was last year. Explaining the Tyler Johnson and Brent Seabrook salary cap trade

They gained space over the cap using LTIR.

 

[mouser]

They would simply not have been cap compliant this season without it. They had zero cap space. They currently have a roster at near the cap limit, had they ever intended to bring him onto the roster they'd have to clear that 6.875.

This was last year. Explaining the Tyler Johnson and Brent Seabrook salary cap trade

They gained space over the cap using LTIR.

That's simply wrong. If Tampa didn't have Seabrook they would have been under the cap at the start of the season. The only reason Tampa was over is because they had Seabrook on the team.

Injured players like Seabrook do not have $0 cap hits, that's the fundamental misunderstanding here. Yes, Tampa would have to clear the space to activate Seabrook, but that's not going to happen. Seabrook is never going to play again.