The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

[ThatGuy22]

Vegas are out of a playoff spot as of today.

If Stone was fit and healthy he'd be out there helping them actually try and make the playoffs.

Just because their attempt at pulling what Tampa did failed, and their illegal trade to was voided, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Had the Dadanov trade gone through, Stone would have likely been playing this week.

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

1) Haven't done the math on how it's calculated yet tbh

This is funny because you quite literally said "plain and simple" in regards to the cap for the playoffs in your previous post. Not so plain and simple when you have do the math and actually make it work, hey?

It amazes me how many hardcore hockey fans don't grasp how the salary cap works, and that it does not exist to create parity and competitive balance. It exists so the owners can budget and balance their cheque books, both in the micro sense of heading into a season, and in the macro, as to keep player contracts from swelling to high. Players don't get paid their salary in the playoffs. Therefore, no salary cap in the playoffs. Plain and simple.

 

[PostBradMalone]

Just because their attempt at pulling what Tampa did failed, and their illegal trade to was voided, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Had the Dadanov trade gone through, Stone would have likely been playing this week.

It makes me wonder what shenanigans are being/were played behind the scenes. Let’s say VGK immediately filed the paperwork to reactivate Stone from LTIR along with the team doctor’s signature giving him a clean bill of health (as Chris Gear’s article says happens as part of the process) after the Dadonov trade. The trade then gets reversed before the Stone move can be announced… did the league let Vegas secretly tear up their medical paperwork out of goodwill, effectively allowing them to game LTIR even more?

We may never know the answer, but I would not be surprised given how much this whole thing stinks.

 

[AvroArrow]

This is funny because you quite literally said "plain and simple" in regards to the cap for the playoffs in your previous post. Not so plain and simple when you have do the math and actually make it work, hey?

It amazes me how many hardcore hockey fans don't grasp how the salary cap works, and that it does not exist to create parity and competitive balance. It exists so the owners can budget and balance their cheque books, both in the micro sense of heading into a season, and in the macro, as to keep player contracts from swelling to high. Players don't get paid their salary in the playoffs. Therefore, no salary cap in the playoffs. Plain and simple.

It is pretty plain and simple for people that understand basic math, you just have to spend time to sit down and calculate it, it's not difficult

VIA Puckpedia: A team’s cap hit is calculated based on each day of the season (186 days). For every day a player is on the roster, the team’s cap hit is their full year cap hit divided by 186. Example: If a player with a $925K cap hit gets called up 86 days into the season (100 days remaining), on that day the team’s projected cap hit for the year goes up $497,312 ($925K/186)*100.

 

[ThatGuy22]

This is funny because you quite literally said "plain and simple" in regards to the cap for the playoffs in your previous post. Not so plain and simple when you have do the math and actually make it work, hey?

It amazes me how many hardcore hockey fans don't grasp how the salary cap works, and that it does not exist to create parity and competitive balance. It exists so the owners can budget and balance their cheque books, both in the micro sense of heading into a season, and in the macro, as to keep player contracts from swelling to high. Players don't get paid their salary in the playoffs. Therefore, no salary cap in the playoffs. Plain and simple.

If it's impossible to enforce a salary cap without players being paid their salary, how is a salary cap enforced in the offseason and during training camp, when player's also aren't being paid.

Futhermore, a player's daily caphit isn't based on their salary. It's based on their averaged salary over the contract term, so it really doesn't even matter what a player is being paid in a given year.

The NHL has plenty of mechanism's at their disposal to do something similar in the post season.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

It is pretty plain and simple for people that understand basic math, you just have to spend time to sit down and calculate it, it's not difficult

VIA Puckpedia: A team’s cap hit is calculated based on each day of the season (186 days). For every day a player is on the roster, the team’s cap hit is their full year cap hit divided by 186. Example: If a player with a $925K cap hit gets called up 86 days into the season (100 days remaining), on that day the team’s projected cap hit for the year goes up $497,312 ($925K/186)*100.

Yeah.. basically the formula is like this:

(AAV (Cap Hit)/ Total days in a season) * Total remaining days in a season = Accrued Salary Cap Hit.

Sees that word DAYS? that total days in a season quantity is a constant. That's why you cannot implement salary cap in the playoffs. Nobody knows how many days each team will spent in the playoffs (or simply how long the playoffs can be). you don't have an exact DAYS for that to calculate.

 

[ThatGuy22]

It is pretty plain and simple for people that understand basic math, you just have to spend time to sit down and calculate it, it's not difficult

VIA Puckpedia: A team’s cap hit is calculated based on each day of the season (186 days). For every day a player is on the roster, the team’s cap hit is their full year cap hit divided by 186. Example: If a player with a $925K cap hit gets called up 86 days into the season (100 days remaining), on that day the team’s projected cap hit for the year goes up $497,312 ($925K/186)*100.

Here is a pretty plain and simple question.

Are there portions of the league year where a salary cap is enforced in a different manner then the regular season?

If that answer is yes, whats to stop them from doing something else in the playoffs?

The answer to those two questions are Yes, and nothing.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The league shouldn't penalize teams that save early to spend later. Unlike teams in operating in LTIR with the expectation that the player creating that space will come back in the playoffs, those clubs are paying a price for a chunk of the season in order to get a benefit in the playoffs. Plus, I suspect its TV partners won't be happy with the effect it has on player movement at the deadline and the interest in it as an event.

Requiring a paper activation of an LTIR player for playoff eligibility on the last day of the season should do the job, to my understanding of the day to day calculations of the cap. A normal team will have banked enough to space to be cap compliant on that final day with their deadline addition(s). A LTIR team will have nothing banked, effectively creating a money in, money out scenario, which will dissuade GMs from using the space to acquire players external (or keeping those internal) to begin with.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think we can also start with stop the trading of LITR players (especially retired players)

 

[ThatGuy22]

Yeah.. basically the formula is like this:

(AAV (Cap Hit)/ Total days in a season) * Total remaining days in a season = Accrued Salary Cap Hit.

Sees that word DAYS? that total days in a season quantity is a constant. That's why you cannot implement salary cap in the playoffs. Nobody knows how many days each team will spent in the playoffs (or simply how long the playoffs can be). you don't have an exact DAYS for that to calculate.

Please explain to me how they use that formula to enforce a cap in the offseason.

 

[Selanne00008]

So.... I assume this should just be in this thread. But what is the actual situation with Vegas? They need to make a trade now, after the deadline to clear space. And that player they trade won't be eligible to play for the remainder of the season? I feel like a player should be able to void that type of trade, but that's for another discussion I suppose.

How much cap room do they need to clear? Or maybe they just say screw and leave whoever on IR on LTIR because they aren't going to make the playoffs anyways! lol

 

[ThatGuy22]

All you people writing about the formula and how plain and simple and couldn't possibly have a playoff cap because of it don't realize or are unwilling to admit, there is already two formulas for enforcing the cap.

CBA Clause 50.5 (d)(i)(A) deals with July 1st through the last day of training camp on how to count the capspace
CBA Clause 50.5(d)(i)(B) deals with the end of Training camp through June 30th.

There is literally nothing stopping the NHLPA and NHL amending clause 50.5(d)(i)(B) to end at the end of the regular season, and creating 50.5(d)(i)(C) to deal with the playoffs. Literally nothing.

 

[Mr Positive]

So.... I assume this should just be in this thread. But what is the actual situation with Vegas? They need to make a trade now, after the deadline to clear space. And that player they trade won't be eligible to play for the remainder of the season? I feel like a player should be able to void that type of trade, but that's for another discussion I suppose.

How much cap room do they need to clear? Or maybe they just say screw and leave whoever on IR on LTIR because they aren't going to make the playoffs anyways! lol

It's pretty much as is. Unless someone is traded or gets injured, this is the team until the playoffs, if they make it.

I know people who were licking their chops about how much Vegas was screwed brought up tweets reminding us that if a player is ready to play, it is illegal to keep them on LTIR just because you want to. Anyone who thinks that is true is so naive. It would only be applicable in a situation where the player and the team were at odds. Right now Stone can say he is ready and wants to get in there, but he knows that if he did that it would destroy the team's ability to compete, by forcing a horrible trade that would damage the franchise for years. So, he will just tell his doctors that he is not quite ready yet, and the doctors do not have a magical scanning device to argue against him with. If it is their professional opinion that he is ready, but he actually isn't and gets re-injured, then that doctor would be sued out of business or worse. So, doctors will always just play along. It's basically up to the player to decide when they return, not their injury.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

Please explain to me how they use that formula to enforce a cap in the offseason.

You can be over the cap in offseason because no NHL hockey being played here. In off season, the cap is just the projection and placeholder for the next year calculation. But, on opening night, you gotta be cap compliant (where another calculations shows up which is SOIR will be used for opening season injury player).

If you just think this can be applied on post season, No, it's not. Remember I said placeholder/projection there? means that it is like "what it shall be" once regular season start. Those placeholder/projection did not apply to the post season because...

1) You are not giving payments for playoffs. Plus, cannot use placeholder logic in post season. Hockey is being played during offseason. Just the player basically play for free.
2) No one knows how long playoffs will be and that makes the normal daily cap hit turns to ruin.
3) Every single player on the club that being registered are counted in post season which turns this whole thing to ruin if you want to implement it.

 

[Voight]

Was it purely coincidence that Mark Stone went on LTIR the same day that Eichel was healthy enough to play?

One could say that he was hurt for a while and held off until the impact wouldn't of been as bad (i.e. when Eichel was ready)

 

[ThatGuy22]

You can be over the cap in offseason because no NHL hockey being played here. In off season, the cap is just the projection and placeholder for the next year calculation. But, on opening night, you gotta be cap compliant (where another calculations shows up which is SOIR will be used for opening season injury player).

If you just think this can be applied on post season, No, it's not. Remember I said placeholder/projection there? means that it is like "what it shall be" once regular season start. Those placeholder/projection did not apply to the post season because...

1) You are not giving payments for playoffs. Plus, cannot use placeholder logic in post season. Hockey is being played during offseason. Just the player basically play for free.
2) No one knows how long playoffs will be and that makes the normal daily cap hit turns to ruin.
3) Every single player on the club that being registered are counted in post season which turns this whole thing to ruin if you want to implement it.

You can be over the cap by 10%. That is sitting a different cap for part of the league
year, not eliminating the cap. No reason that can't happen in the playoffs.

None of the rest of your post matters, they can literally do whatever they want to enforce a cap in the playoffs as long as it's negotiated with the NHLPA.

You are stuck on a formula that is only used part of the league year already.

They can create a new clause that deals with the time period between end of the regular season and June 30th. Just like they have a different accounting July 1st to the end of trying camp.

 

[GreenLine]

Yeah, Im sure less talented players on the ice equals a better product lol

Parity is a better product.

 

[Rydev]

Parity is a better product.

Parity is awesome but not st the expense of star-to-great players sitting out because of unfortunate injuries

If theyre healthy they should play, come up with a way to make that happen under the cap because currently it isnt possible. Ive laid out a few ways but theyre just ideas and the NHL has decided against doing anything for it now for a while

 

[Mohar Ikram]

You can be over the cap by 10%. That is sitting a different cap for part of the league
year, not eliminating the cap. No reason that can't happen in the playoffs.

None of the rest of your post matters, they can literally do whatever they want to enforce a cap in the playoffs as long as it's negotiated with the NHLPA.

You are stuck on a formula that is only used part of the league year already.

They can create a new clause that deals with the time period between end of the regular season and June 30th. Just like they have a different accounting July 1st to the end of trying camp.

I think you forgot something from that clause in article 50.

"League year"

Stanley Cup Playoffs =/= League, Although it can happen during the said league year, it is still not the league.

This is back to technicalities. Although NHL own Stanley Cup, Stanley Cup is not assimilated with NHL since originally, NHL bought the Stanley Cup rights.

If Stanley Cup Playoffs are the league, Why not call it NHL Playoffs like NBA Playoffs? Why in the pandemic year that extra round is called NHL playoffs and needed to be separated from Stanley Cup Playoffs?

Terms NHL champions never exists in any history of books, only Stanley Cup champions (Unlike NBA champs).

Article 28 said players and clubs still got paid in playoffs but only a playoff pool money (which is basically prize money accordingly where you finish in playoffs), Plus, the presidents trophy winner also got some prize money. But remember, this is NHL who gives it. Not the club that where the players work. So different cases.

Even though they get paid from 1 July to 30 June the next year, the annual salary calculated based on "SEASON DAYS" which most likely fixed (unless that pandemic and extensive lockout happen).

You may say they can change it but how? Plus, you gotta maintain those two entities that are similar but not same (NHL and Stanley Cup Playoffs/Finals).

 

[ThatGuy22]

I think you forgot something from that clause in article 50.

"League year"

Stanley Cup Playoffs =/= League, Although it can happen during the said league year, it is still not the league.

This is back to technicalities. Although NHL own Stanley Cup, Stanley Cup is not assimilated with NHL since originally, NHL bought the Stanley Cup rights.

If Stanley Cup Playoffs are the league, Why not call it NHL Playoffs like NBA Playoffs? Why in the pandemic year that extra round is called NHL playoffs and needed to be separated from Stanley Cup Playoffs?

Terms NHL champions never exists in any history of books, only Stanley Cup champions (Unlike NBA champs).

Article 28 said players and clubs still got paid in playoffs but only a playoff pool money (which is basically prize money accordingly where you finish in playoffs), Plus, the presidents trophy winner also got some prize money. But remember, this is NHL who gives it. Not the club that where the players work. So different cases.

Even though they get paid from 1 July to 30 June the next year, the annual salary calculated based on "SEASON DAYS" which most likely fixed (unless that pandemic and extensive lockout happen).

You may say they can change it but how? Plus, you gotta maintain those two entities that are similar but not same (NHL and Stanley Cup Playoffs/Finals).

This is the biggest statement of gobbly gook i've ever seen.

"League Year" is a defined term in Article 1 of the CBA. I've copied and pasted it below. The Stanley Cup playoffs are inherently within the league year.

"League Year" means the period from July 1 of one calendar year to and including June 30 of the following calendar year or such other one year period to which the NHL and the NHLPA may agree.

As far as the rest of the stuff about the Stanley Cup Playoffs (another defined term in the CBA), the Cup has been given to the NHL to award by the board of trustees. The very first line of that agreement (posted below) allows the NHL wide latitude to determine qualifications for the teams challenging to the cup, including adding a condition for competition that team's have players that have an AAV below some set limit.

1. The Trustees hereby delegate to the League full authority to determine and amend from time to time the conditions for competition of the Stanley Cup, including the qualifications of challengers, the appointment of officials, the apportionment and distribution of all gate receipts, provided always that the winners of this trophy shall be the acknowledged World's Professional Hockey Champions.

Also, it's quite literally trademarked NHL Staley Cup Playoffs.

NHL STANLEY CUP FINAL Trademark of National Hockey League - Registration Number 3922838 - Serial Number 85078622 :: Justia Trademarks

Annual series of professional ice hockey contests to determine the world champions of professional ice hockey

trademarks.justia.com

NHL STANLEY CUP FINAL Trademark of National Hockey League - Registration Number 3922838 - Serial Number 85078622 :: Justia Trademarks

Annual series of professional ice hockey contests to determine the world champions of professional ice hockey

trademarks.justia.com

 

[T REX]

Tampa did it with Kucherov so they could re-sign Cirell, Sergachev, and Cernak. They didn’t wanna lose any of them and they couldn’t offload Tyler Johnson or Ondrej Palat. Tampa took a risk and held out Kucherov hoping the rest of the team could get them to the playoffs. Brisebois was made out to be some genius while all he did was use this “plan” and it ended up panning out in the end. Behind closed doors the NHL investigated the injury claim and had to know of how convenient the timing was that he was available for Game 1 of the playoffs and probably told Tampa Bay not to do it again. Hopefully the league does something about it in the offseason because other teams are using a similar tactic now and its making a mockery of the hard cap.

Make the LTIR rules more strict:

- Have a salary cap for the playoffs, otherwise in the future teams will stash players on LTIR until the playoffs.
- If you want cap relief for LTIR in case you truly suffered a season ending injury, then make them ineligible for the remainder of the regular season and playoffs.
- Allow teams to use their scratched players during the same game in case of in-game injuries. The scratched players still count towards your cap during the season so you should be able to use them. For example if a defenseman gets injured in a game in the first period and you have another defenseman scratched in your lineup that second defenseman should be able to come in the second period and the injured defenseman cannot return to the game.

Link to your Tampa baloney sandwich?

 

[Mohar Ikram]

"1. The Trustees hereby delegate to the League full authority to determine and amend from time to time the conditions for competition of the Stanley Cup, including the qualifications of challengers, the appointment of officials, the apportionment and distribution of all gate receipts, provided always that the winners of this trophy shall be the acknowledged World's Professional Hockey Champions."


Again. You just prove my point. Read again that clause.

"conditions for competition of stanley cup"

"competition of stanley cup"

Means that NHL organized the rules and regulations of Stanley Cup competition since they got the rights and trademarks to it. No biggies about that.

But why word it that way? Because historically and brought up to this date that Stanley Cup competition is technically separated from NHL. It's originally a Challenge cup and look the word use there - "challenger".

Which mean, technically Stanley Cup is not assimilated with NHL even though the cup rights belongs to them.

Plus, NHL full authorities to adjust for SC are:

"1) conditions and competitions for SC including:
a) qualifications for challengers
b) appointments for officials
c) apportionment and distribution of gate receipts

As long as the winner become Professional World Hockey Champion"

Based on that, I don't see how salary cap in playoffs are essentials. There is nothing in that clause that specifically said the cup will be voided if the revenue or salary of the competing club over their capabilities.

Yes, they can proposed the cap to be applied on post season too. Logically yes. But the term still stands, they are not paid to play in the playoffs. So the cap applied seems illogical since they technically play on zero dollars.

Unless you're gonna say that the league years payment cap hit contract also include playoffs.... Which is more confusing because the non-playoffs team basically get overpaid in that regards (plus, who knows they gonna get to playoffs before the season begins?)

So yeah, lots of adjustments in CBA terms if you want overhaul that.

 

[cowboy82nd]

I actively encourage cap circumvention. The NHL's cap is stupid.

They sold you all on a parity narrative when the sole purpose of it was owners lining their pockets.

The sole purpose of it is to keep players’ salaries down.

 

[HaNotsri]

I think LTIR should be for season ending injuries and you can't activate the player until next season.
That or a 2.0 million cap relief as a max

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

If it's impossible to enforce a salary cap without players being paid their salary, how is a salary cap enforced in the offseason and during training camp, when player's also aren't being paid.

Futhermore, a player's daily caphit isn't based on their salary. It's based on their averaged salary over the contract term, so it really doesn't even matter what a player is being paid in a given year.

The NHL has plenty of mechanism's at their disposal to do something similar in the post season.

I'm not saying they don't have the mechanisms. They don't care to use one. The league and owners don't care about a cap in the playoffs (this is why I mentioned players not collecting a salary during this time).

There would be cons to implementing one as well, such as a complete lack of trade deadline activity (which has already been mentioned). A severe lack of player movement in season at all, for that matter. It would make things less exciting.

I have zero issue with the way the system is currently set up. The NHL existed for 87 years without a salary cap and fans were perfectly fine with it. Now fans seem to want to focus more on the cap than anything else. Just enjoy the sport, the excitement, and the stroylines.