Player Discussion The missed franchise turning point was drafting Price over Kopitar

[Garbageyuk]

The Habs have consistently rushed players under every management and coaching staff while at the same time giving these players garbage linemates etc...

I don't think Timmins is great I just think development is a much bigger issue. Even a blind monkey would do a better job then Timmins if drafting is the inherent issue lol.

You didn't answer the initial question in my post, nor did you provide any argument for what you are claiming.

It is either:

These alleged developmental issues have somehow persisted for nearly 2 decades despite multiple regime, GM, coaching, ownership, and other staff changes for both the Habs and their minor league affiliates.

or

A particular individual and his staff who has been either directly responsible or heavily involved in drafting and scouting since 2003 is bad at his job and as a result, the Habs have been worse at drafting talent since he arrived.

Occam's Razor tells us what is overwhelmingly likely to be the answer.

The fact that several of the teams most important players were drafted by other teams and developed into the players they are now just fine in MTL further indicates that the problem has been drafting.

Suzuki
Petry
Danault

All drafted by other teams, all developed into what they are now by the Habs.

 

[widowmaker]

93 Cup appearance was total fluke. 90-92 Habs couldn’t beat Bruins in playoffs and Roy avg 3-blue line Neely goals per series. Buffalo & Isles pulled miraculous upsets over Bruins & Mario’s Pens - no way Habs make it out of their division vs Bruins, let alone Pens

Perhaps.....perhaps not.....Roy was in a special kind of zone after game 2 round 1.......woulda been something to see ......Mario vs Roy that year

 

[FloJack]

Yeah, Kopitar was my pick too but I’m long over it due to Price. My number one memory from that draft was not wanting Brule and freaking out for a second as Timmins said “from the Western Hockey League...”. And when it was Price that freaking out became confusion.

I also really liked Luc Bourdon, what a shame.

I didn’t want Pouliot because he had frosted tips. LOL.

 

[Chet-Nick]

I can see your point. Look at it this way. Price will be in the HOF. Outside of a few years (here and there). Carey hasn't been provided with sufficient offense by management. See the 2017 playoff exit at the hands of the Rangers.

 

[River Meadow]

Prime Price ? What, it lasted like 4 f***ing years. Price is so overrated and the biggest mistake might not have been drafting him, but building the team around him. They disignated him our franchise player before he even played in the NHL.

He was handed the no1 job, he never won it. When he was challenged by a young contender, they shipped this guy away. They gave him 2 ridiculous contracts (people don't remember how huge the first multi years contract was, people felt he was overpaid and not worthy of it... But then he had his 3-4 good years, enough to build his false reputation and get that joke of a contract he has now). They accepted all his requests. They refused to use young talented goalies as backup and instead spent a fortune on an experienced backup... But he's still not satisfied.

Price is the biggest drama queen in the league only challenged by his fans. That's the biggest mistake this organization made, betting all on Carey Price.

Damn.... well said.

 

[David Suzuki]

You didn't answer the initial question in my post, nor did you provide any argument for what you are claiming.

Because I'm posting on an internet forum not writing my thesis

But since I'm here, if you'd notice, none of those players spent time in the AHL with the Habs, the key development league for most but the very special prospects. I agree Timmins has done a piss poor job at finding diamond in the rough prospects and has had some bad luck with first round picks being traded who bloomed into stars as well as some atrocious firsts. The main issues are threefold, horrible management that trade special prospects (Sergachev and McDonagh), horrible AHL and NHL development and pretty bad scouting. I never said Timmins was "great" I said the development, to me, is a bigger issue.

 

[26Mats]

I can see your point. Look at it this way. Price will be in the HOF. Outside of a few years (here and there). Carey hasn't been provided with sufficient offense by management. See the 2017 playoff exit at the hands of the Rangers.

I don't think Price is a sure Hall of Famer. His MVP season and Vezina are huge credentials. But Theodore ain't going. Price has accomplished much more than Theo they're not even in the same universe. But if Price were to fall off a cliff at 33 or 34, not sure he makes it.

 

[Habssince89]

Kostitsyn over Getzlaf you mean right

End the thread here.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Like I always said to my friend that watches hockey and people here , you never ever draft a goalie in the top 15 of a draft. Don't care if hes 1.88 .940 in the juniors. You don't build teams around goalies. Goalies don't play 82 matches a season. Goalies are random. 1 season they are great then are shit for 3 years then are decent for a year after , while other positions they are more balanced in terms of production and value. This team since Roy played his shit out and the latest in 2010 , this org thinks a goalie can win a cup. Chicago won a cup with Niemi and he was batshit awful. You win with heavy talent and a decent goalie and that's it. Same goes for Bobrovski and king Lunvy.

The media praised Carey Price since he was drafted because he was the next Patrick Roy , then people started feeding into the media and gm/coaches for 2 decades of dumb shit about goalies.

Proof is that Halak has the same stats as Carey Price. Carey Price had 2 great years and that's it. I would rather overpay a guy that gives me 85 points at age 29 for 8 years at 10m than a goalie.
It could have been anybody in 2005 draft it doesnt matter. Picking goalies in top picks is useless if you have a shit core to begin with.

Also habs cant draft , f*** timmins and i sitll hate the f***ing fans at the bell center when they were yelling Louis Leblanc name , that shit was the cringest shit i seen in hockey history. That pick was so bad at the second he named his college. They literally drafted him because people spamming his name.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I don't think Price is a sure Hall of Famer. His MVP season and Vezina are huge credentials. But Theodore ain't going. Price has accomplished much more than Theo they're not even in the same universe. But if Price were to fall off a cliff at 33 or 34, not sure he makes it.

Price does not deserve to be a hall of famer at all. Did not even make an appearance in the stanley cup finals. That's atleast the bare minimum. Couldnt care less about his AHL win and junioir stuff and stacked olympic wins or his 1 year wonder.

Hall of Fame should not be for everybody , there is so many players in the hall of fame that don't belong there it's incredible. Winning an award 1 year makes u a HoF these days. Pathetic.

 

[Scintillating10]

Yeah, I said it. And I'm saying it now because it still pisses me off. Actually, though I rarely hang out on this board much any more, I've said this consistently over the years ever since that fateful draft. That was our chance. Everyone -- everyone -- knew Kopitar was a stud. Everyone knew he was the right pick for us. It was our chance to FINALLY get a franchise center, to break the bizarre self-imposed Patrick Roy mold of the goalie god leading a squad of dead boring defensive players. Of all our many, many, many 1st round draft screw-ups, this one continues to haunt us, so many years later. Yes, despite whatever success we had for a year or two. Despite Carey being the best goalie in hockey . . . for a brief time. We missed our franchise reset, then eventually doubled down on our "star" and have crippled the franchise long-term... again.

If everybody knew Kopitar was future stud doubt he would have lasted until 11th overall.

But I agree, wish we had never picked Price. It's like building a nice house on sand. It is a nice house yes, but in a storm it will collapse. Price is a good goalie but has to many terrible seasons mixed in. He is too inconsistent to build around.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Is it the Price draft, or the 15 years after they failed to find a single great centerman?

They had 2 picks before Brayden Point in 26-73 range and both players turned out bad. Surely they could’ve offered Buffalo more for ROR than the Blues and their spare parts.

Im sure you could find plenty of missed opportunities like that. Not that these things should’ve happened, but when you put together a list you wonder how they didn’t nail one of them.

Hopefully Suzuki was a bigger hit in the long run.

 

[River Meadow]

Also habs cant draft , f*** timmins and i sitll hate the f***ing fans at the bell center when they were yelling Louis Leblanc name , that shit was the cringest shit i seen in hockey history. That pick was so bad at the second he named his college. They literally drafted him because people spamming his name.

Little guy from our area

 

[River Meadow]

Like I always said to my friend that watches hockey and people here , you never ever draft a goalie in the top 15 of a draft. Don't care if hes 1.88 .940 in the juniors. You don't build teams around goalies. Goalies don't play 82 matches a season. Goalies are random. 1 season they are great then are shit for 3 years then are decent for a year after , while other positions they are more balanced in terms of production and value. This team since Roy played his shit out and the latest in 2010 , this org thinks a goalie can win a cup. Chicago won a cup with Niemi and he was batshit awful. You win with heavy talent and a decent goalie and that's it. Same goes for Bobrovski and king Lunvy.

The media praised Carey Price since he was drafted because he was the next Patrick Roy , then people started feeding into the media and gm/coaches for 2 decades of dumb shit about goalies.

Proof is that Halak has the same stats as Carey Price. Carey Price had 2 great years and that's it. I would rather overpay a guy that gives me 85 points at age 29 for 8 years at 10m than a goalie.
It could have been anybody in 2005 draft it doesnt matter. Picking goalies in top picks is useless if you have a shit core to begin with.

Also habs cant draft , f*** timmins and i sitll hate the f***ing fans at the bell center when they were yelling Louis Leblanc name , that shit was the cringest shit i seen in hockey history. That pick was so bad at the second he named his college. They literally drafted him because people spamming his name.

Dear god, you're right.

Halak career stats:

Price career stats:

We're paying 10.5 million a year based on a hope and a prayer.

 

[River Meadow]

It gets worse...

Past 4 seasons comparison.

Halak:

Price:

 

[frapp10]

Honestly I wanted Brule badly back then so I can’t even speak on this topic lol

 

[nhlfan9191]

It gets worse...

Past 4 seasons comparison.

Halak:

View attachment 401131

Price:

View attachment 401132

There’s a pretty significant difference between starting 60+ games on a very mediocre team and padding your stats in a lb backup role on a contender known for having great defence.

 

[frapp10]

Every team can go back in time and say we should picked this player instead of that. Usually the first round might be more clear but everytime has missed out on grade A players in the first round and especially the later rounds

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

There’s a pretty significant difference between starting 60+ games on a very mediocre team and padding your stats in a lb backup role on a contender known for having great defence.

That's a bad excuse . He played his games and did good. Backup or not he played enough games in the NHL to say he can start a game if needed. There is no padding stats. Allen is padding his stats while Price gotta blame the D in front of him. I remember well in 2015 Price defense was absolute garbage also and did almost the impossible.

You can say whatever you want in any ways possible , Halak and Price both had good careers and not because you play 60 games a season instead of 40 hold less value. That's half of a season.

Also price was overplayed because our GM couldnt find a backup since eh , weird 2010.

 

[River Meadow]

There’s a pretty significant difference between starting 60+ games on a very mediocre team and padding your stats in a lb backup role on a contender known for having great defence.

Halak brought us closer than Price did though, and in a more dominant fashion, or did you forget about that?

Halak also has better career playoff numbers than Price.

 

[River Meadow]

That's a bad excuse . He played his games and did good. Backup or not he played enough games in the NHL to say he can start a game if needed. There is no padding stats. Allen is padding his stats while Price gotta blame the D in front of him. I remember well in 2015 Price defense was absolute garbage also and did almost the impossible.

You can say whatever you want in any ways possible , Halak and Price both had good careers.

Good point.

Allen is padding his stats right now with a STACKED Montreal defense with a .932 SV%.

Poor Price has to play in front of a HORRIBLE Montreal defense so his SV% is only .888

Now @nhlfan9191's post totally makes sense.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Good point.

Allen is padding his stats right now with a STACKED Montreal defense with a .932 SV%.

Poor Price has to play in front of a HORRIBLE Montreal defense so his SV% is only .888

Now @nhlfan9191's post totally makes sense.

What’s your point exactly? Allen isn’t padding his stats because he’s had to put up those numbers on an average to bad team.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Because I'm posting on an internet forum not writing my thesis

But since I'm here, if you'd notice, none of those players spent time in the AHL with the Habs, the key development league for most but the very special prospects. I agree Timmins has done a piss poor job at finding diamond in the rough prospects and has had some bad luck with first round picks being traded who bloomed into stars as well as some atrocious firsts. The main issues are threefold, horrible management that trade special prospects (Sergachev and McDonagh), horrible AHL and NHL development and pretty bad scouting. I never said Timmins was "great" I said the development, to me, is a bigger issue.

I really don't think expecting someone to backup their claims is asking all that much.

Here's something you seem to be unaware of: players who lack talent tend to have "development issues".

You keep dodging my question, so I'll ask one more time. How do you explain these alleged development issues persisting for nearly 2 decades despite multiple regime, GM, coaching, ownership and other staff changes? Timmins is the only one who has been there the entire time, but the problem isn't him and his poor drafting (among the worst in the league his entire tenure)? Come on...

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Kostitsyn over Getzlaf you mean right

This.

Definitely this.

Or Fischer over Giroux

 

[JianYang]

I don't remember where I heard this from, but apparently the habs table was debating over marc Staal and price.

The habs came out very well from their 2005 first round selection. Its a weird decision to pick 2005 as the one to crap on when you have so many better options.