The Long Fix Rebuild

[snailderby]

The rebuild may take 5 years. It may take 10 years. We may strike it lucky in the draft. Or we may not. I won't be upset if the front office doesn't blow the team up and make a ton of major trades. I just hope they won't give out too many long contracts with expensive cap hits.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

"How quickly Toronto has turned it around"

As you complain about about us not being a legitimate contender since our last cup appearance 8 years ago.

Sick they finally hit on some picks and have good management, they've been awful forever.

Toronto was awful longer then they needed to be because they tried rebuilding on the fly and gave out awful free agent contracts. Once they admitted that's a terrible philosophy they began to turn things around.

 

[steafo]

"How quickly Toronto has turned it around"

As you complain about about us not being a legitimate contender since our last cup appearance 8 years ago.

Sick they finally hit on some picks and have good management, they've been awful forever.

Well I did acknowledge that Toronto repeatedly failed at their rebuilds in the late 90's early 2000s basically all the way until Shanny took over. I agree, that they hit on their picks. I think the Wings have been good enough at drafting in later picks I have some confidence in their scouting of top end talent.

This is the part I'm not so confident in..

and have good management,

I believe our scouting is at least middle of the pack if not higher. I don't have a lot of faith in our management. I realize I am spoiled as a long time fan but I expect a certain amount of chance to contend. I'm not satisfied with being a 7 - 10 seed every year with no real shot of making it out of the first round or worse narrowly missing the playoffs and getting a higher pick. That does nothing for me except an additional 4-7 games of watching them lineup the same tired lineup they have been for years.

Toronto was awful longer then they needed to be because they tried rebuilding on the fly and gave out awful free agent contracts. Once they admitted that's a terrible philosophy they began to turn things around.

Exactly. Why delay things 10 years when it could potentially take 3-5. I'm not talking about shipping EVERYONE off. Identify your core and then everything outside of that is expendable and should be on the block actively not passively.

 

[Ezekial]

Toronto was awful longer then they needed to be because they tried rebuilding on the fly and gave out awful free agent contracts. Once they admitted that's a terrible philosophy they began to turn things around.

They rebuilt on the fly with 1 playoff appearance in 10 years, Kenny has been doing it and succeeding in his mind for a long period.

Well I did acknowledge that Toronto repeatedly failed at their rebuilds in the late 90's early 2000s basically all the way until Shanny took over. I agree, that they hit on their picks. I think the Wings have been good enough at drafting in later picks I have some confidence in their scouting of top end talent.

This is the part I'm not so confident in..
I believe our scouting is at least middle of the pack if not higher. I don't have a lot of faith in our management. I realize I am spoiled as a long time fan but I expect a certain amount of chance to contend. I'm not satisfied with being a 7 - 10 seed every year with no real shot of making it out of the first round or worse narrowly missing the playoffs and getting a higher pick. That does nothing for me except an additional 4-7 games of watching them lineup the same tired lineup they have been for years.


Exactly. Why delay things 10 years when it could potentially take 3-5. I'm not talking about shipping EVERYONE off. Identify your core and then everything outside of that is expendable and should be on the block actively not passively.

I'm all about being bad for a couple years, our GM won't do it though. I'm actually kind of fearful that this season was extremely bad in all facets and next season we won't be as bad as I want. I don't think we're going to have a sub .905 goalie start 56 of our games next year. Not a playoff team, but hopefully we can pull a Philly - or just be bad.
I just can't find it in me to be jealous of a franchise that sucked for 50 years, they look to be pretty well on their way but I feel they still have some growing pains ahead of them after this near pristine season.

 

[obey86]

Toronto was awful longer then they needed to be because they tried rebuilding on the fly and gave out awful free agent contracts. Once they admitted that's a terrible philosophy they began to turn things around.

I'm so sick of this comparison, Toronto's situation wasn't even remotely to where the Wings have been the last 3-5 years.

In the 10 years before Shanahan came on board the Leafs finished:

4th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
10th in the NHL in shortened season - made playoffs
5th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
9th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
2nd to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
7th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs

^Yeah, looks just like where the Red Wings have been for 5 years


The one major difference in the success of Toronto's rebuild now compared to earlier is that they drafted Matthews, Marner, and Nylander at #1, #4, and #8 instead of Morgan Reilly, Luke Schenn, Nazem Kadri at #5, #5, and #7. No matter what Shanahan did or didn't do, it all really ultimately boiled down to drafting 3 (potential) superstars with high picks instead of 2 pretty good players and a bust. All the other stuff people like to argue about (their trades, free agent signings, etc) is just window dressing. The previous rebuild would have been successful if they drafted better at the top/better players were available....and this rebuild would have flopped if only Luke Schenn and Name Kadri caliber players were available with their picks.

 

[Frk It]

I'm so sick of this comparison, Toronto's situation wasn't even remotely to where the Wings have been the last 3-5 years.

In the 10 years before Shanahan came on board the Leafs finished:

4th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
10th in the NHL in shortened season - made playoffs
5th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
9th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
2nd to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
7th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs

^Yeah, looks just like where the Red Wings have been for 5 years


The one major difference in the success of Toronto's rebuild now compared to earlier is that they drafted Matthews, Marner, and Nylander at #1, #4, and #8 instead of Morgan Reilly, Luke Schenn, Nazem Kadri at #5, #5, and #7. No matter what Shanahan did or didn't do, it all really ultimately boiled down to drafting 3 (potential) superstars with high picks instead of 2 pretty good players and a bust. All the other stuff people like to argue about (their trades, free agent signings, etc) is just window dressing. The previous rebuild would have been successful if they drafted better at the top/better players were available....and this rebuild would have flopped if only Luke Schenn and Name Kadri caliber players were available with their picks.

i thought Kadri was a pretty big part of that team's success too, though. I mean he just had a 30-30 season.

Edit: Reilly didn't do as good as I thought lol, I forget with how much Leafs fans talk him up...

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I'm so sick of this comparison, Toronto's situation wasn't even remotely to where the Wings have been the last 3-5 years.

In the 10 years before Shanahan came on board the Leafs finished:

4th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
10th in the NHL in shortened season - made playoffs
5th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
9th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
2nd to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
7th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
8th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs
13th to last in the NHL - missed playoffs

^Yeah, looks just like where the Red Wings have been for 5 years


The one major difference in the success of Toronto's rebuild now compared to earlier is that they drafted Matthews, Marner, and Nylander at #1, #4, and #8 instead of Morgan Reilly, Luke Schenn, Nazem Kadri at #5, #5, and #7. No matter what Shanahan did or didn't do, it all really ultimately boiled down to drafting 3 (potential) superstars with high picks instead of 2 pretty good players and a bust. All the other stuff people like to argue about (their trades, free agent signings, etc) is just window dressing. The previous rebuild would have been successful if they drafted better at the top/better players were available....and this rebuild would have flopped if only Luke Schenn and Name Kadri caliber players were available with their picks.

Who compared Toronto to Detroit's rebuild on the fly success?

What year did lidstrom, datsyuk and zetterberg play for Toronto, I must have missed that?

Toronto under Burke were trying to do a quick rebuild, the results were just awful

 

[avssuc]

#40 is going up the rafters, don't bother with trade talks there. Larkin is possibly but highly unlikely given that he's a young local guy that has a lot of potential to be our captain down the line. If he is traded, Holland better be smart about it, if it's not for someone like Trouba for example, you better not mess around.

If we see 40 up there before 91, we should burn the new 'Pizza Palace' to the ground.... wait until the Pistons are on a road trip... and torch that mother!

 

[Run the Jewels]

Just looking at CapFriendlyshows how much of a disaster the Red Wings payroll is:

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/redwings

This is not a 1 year fix, or two for that matter. 2020 might be a year to consider a turning point year because this roster is laced with not bad but horrific contracts. In this current situation, the the next few years are going to be flat out painful.

So why waste time trying to make a quick turn around when the roster/payroll needs a cleansing. As much as I dislike Toronto, Detroit needs to follow their playbook.

First suggestion is take on a few more bad short-term/dead money contracts, like Toronto did, to get rid of a few bad long-term deals. DeyKeyser comes to mind.

Second, tank for a few years and draft for the long-term....its better to take a "development " prospect in the draft right now then someone who can help right away. Detroit has 6 picks in the first 3 rounds in this draft and 3 picks in the first 2 rounds next year.

Third, don't buy anyone out. Just take the hit right now and stink it up.

The East is going to be very strong for the next few years so why fight to get bounced in the first round or barely not make the playoffs. My thought is to try to draft in the top 5 and pray that a guy like Rasmus Dahlin is in a Red Wing uniform.

Guys like Larkin, Matta, Cale Maker (2017), Dahlin (2018), are something to build around.

Yeah, the people who have constantly defended Ken Holland's inaction are probably the ones who are trying to come up with a short term fix. The funny thing is this was the case in 2010, 2011 and 2012. Here we are half a decade later and they are still looking for the shortcut. The country club is apparently still open for business.

This is how far back it goes: people used to accuse me of wanting to turn the franchise into the Edmonton Oilers for suggesting we trade our impending UFAs and start playing guys like Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco, Mrazek sooner rather than later. I think we all know that using the Edmonton Oilers as an epithet ain't gonna work for a looong time.

The path is clear, only the people filled with pride for the past cannot accept how you become good in the NHL. Here's a clue: if they suggest you want to trade away every good young player to be awful they are arguing against a strawman. Trust me, I've been dealing with those strawman they've been building up for nearly 10 years.

Tick tock.

 

[razor ray]

The East is going to be even better next year. NJ, Bos, Tor, Philly, Fla, and TB will all likely be better. Hell, even Buffalo and Carolina might be better. Making the playoffs may be tough sledding the next few years.

Next years draft could be epic. Tank, and take your chances in the lottery. I would love to see them build for a cup contending team in the future.

 

[obey86]

i thought Kadri was a pretty big part of that team's success too, though. I mean he just had a 30-30 season.

Edit: Reilly didn't do as good as I thought lol, I forget with how much Leafs fans talk him up...

Kadri is definitely a good player, but more than likely is never going to be a star and isn't someone you build your team around.

 

[Bench]

I'm so sick of this comparison, Toronto's situation wasn't even remotely to where the Wings have been the last 3-5 years.

Why don't we ignore trying to find a perfect 1 to 1 example and focus on the overarching theme that I think most reasonable fans here point to when regarding Toronto.

Toronto cleaned house of their management, coaching, and also gutted their expensive veteran players. In Kessel's case, he was so good on his new team, he probably could have won the playoff MVP. He is once again having a terrific year and playoffs. Toronto was willing to shed good players to make room for the future. Oh, and Kessel is only 29, he's not exactly on his last legs here.

And when Toronto decided to do that and "tank" for the immediate future, the teams prospects moving forward with their drafted talent and their cap situation got much, much better. They were far worse moving Dion and Phil immediately, but their short term sacrifice has created a very strong potential for long-term benefits.

And there in lies the comparison. The Red Wings refuse to do that. Instead they keep the same management. They keep the same coach. They are going to keep every overpaid veteran player. It's the Holy Trinity of Status Quo.

One team was aggressive in their rebuild, actively stacking the deck in their favor and creating cap flexibility. The other is bullishly stubborn, doubling down on their expensive veterans and maintaining the same course we've seen for years. Toronto was willing to shed Kessel, one of the best scoring wingers in the league. The Wings can't bring themselves to shed Abby or Helm, let alone play hardball with their contracts.

Toronto is an example because they waited way too long to pull the band-aid and get aggressive. And now we're watching the Wings follow that path. It's frustrating as a fan that not only wants to see winning, but perhaps more importantly, entertaining hockey.

 

[Winger98]

and now the Wings are to the point where I'm not sure it's really possible to deal most of their vets. Wait and see how the expansion draft plays out and all, but it's going to be a couple of years before any of those older guys get into an area where another team will have any real interest taking their deals on.

 

[obey86]

Why don't we ignore trying to find a perfect 1 to 1 example and focus on the overarching theme that I think most reasonable fans here point to when regarding Toronto.

Toronto cleaned house of their management, coaching, and also gutted their expensive veteran players. In Kessel's case, he was so good on his new team, he probably could have won the playoff MVP. He is once again having a terrific year and playoffs. Toronto was willing to shed good players to make room for the future. Oh, and Kessel is only 29, he's not exactly on his last legs here.

And when Toronto decided to do that and "tank" for the immediate future, the teams prospects moving forward with their drafted talent and their cap situation got much, much better. They were far worse moving Dion and Phil immediately, but their short term sacrifice has created a very strong potential for long-term benefits.

And there in lies the comparison. The Red Wings refuse to do that. Instead they keep the same management. They keep the same coach. They are going to keep every overpaid veteran player. It's the Holy Trinity of Status Quo.

One team was aggressive in their rebuild, actively stacking the deck in their favor and creating cap flexibility. The other is bullishly stubborn, doubling down on their expensive veterans and maintaining the same course we've seen for years. Toronto was willing to shed Kessel, one of the best scoring wingers in the league. The Wings can't bring themselves to shed Abby or Helm, let alone play hardball with their contracts.

Toronto is an example because they waited way too long to pull the band-aid and get aggressive. And now we're watching the Wings follow that path. It's frustrating as a fan that not only wants to see winning, but perhaps more importantly, entertaining hockey.

You're completely ignoring the different positions each team has been in over the past few years. One team missed the playoffs 9/10 seasons, the other team made the playoffs 9/10 seasons. Obviously one team has much more incentive to drastically alter their team building path given those facts.

Let's say we have two 40 year olds guys, neither is at the top of their professions. It's like saying guy A, who works as a janitor making 10 dollars an hour, has the same incentive to quit his job and go back to college as guy B, making 50,000 a year.

You're simply being disingenuous by considering the situations as comparable. A team not even remotely competitive for a decade straight has much more of an incentive to completely change their MO than a middle of the pack team.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Exactly. Detroit had the roster construction of a team that's been trying to win (and winning) for 2 decades. Toronto had the roster construction of a team that's been a dumpster fire for two decades. Entirely different starting points.

Also, Toronto has been making boatloads of money on their team as they were being awful, while Detroit will most certainly not be making any boatloads of money from being awful. Entirely different economic motivations.

Also, Toronto cleaned house in the front office because the team was terrible on the ice year over year over year, not because they made the playoffs 25 times and then missed one. If Holland puts up a sequence of performance like Ferguson and Burke and Nonis did he'll get fired, and he should be. If the team gets back to being a playoff club then he won't be, at least until the ownership decides they want to change their expectations.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

didnt the leafs make the playoffs from 98-04? as well as 93-96

and in those years had four conference finals, hardly dumpster fire rosters

BB was named GM in 2008 after the Leafs had been out of the playoff for TWO(2) years straight(so our situation next June more then likely) and it was here that you notice the terrible plan of trying to rebuild through free agency(awful contracts to awful players) and attempting to make a quick return to the playoffs(quoted as saying he didnt believe or want a long rebuild) completely and utterly fail as predicted

now NO Detroit is not in the exact same situation but I think its not wanting to ever be in that situation that fans are arguing for

 

[Bondurant]

Detroit and Toronto are not the same situation but it's worth noting how quickly things turned when Toronto's front office decided to take their jobs seriously. My biggest concern with Holland is his not seeing the writing on the wall. He believed the 16/17 Wings were playoff ready. I'm not convinced his head isn't still hurried in the sand.

Very eagerly awaiting the entry & expansion drafts and free agency so we will get a better understanding on Holland's grasp on reality.

 

[Dotter]

One team was aggressive in their rebuild, actively stacking the deck in their favor and creating cap flexibility. The other is bullishly stubborn, doubling down on their expensive veterans and maintaining the same course we've seen for years. Toronto was willing to shed Kessel, one of the best scoring wingers in the league. The Wings can't bring themselves to shed Abby or Helm, let alone play hardball with their contracts.

Toronto is an example because they waited way too long to pull the band-aid and get aggressive. And now we're watching the Wings follow that path. It's frustrating as a fan that not only wants to see winning, but perhaps more importantly, entertaining hockey.

Seems like double talk. Also it excludes the fact that a aging Mike Ilitch investing in the billion dollar state of the art arena. It also excludes the fact that Detroit Red Wings had like a 25 year playoff streak that ownership was very proud of. It also excludes the fact that Wings had Lidstrom, Datsyuk and still Zetterberg. When are they suppose to rip the "band-aid" off and go full tank mode? And will this 2017 1st overall pick rival McDavid or Matthews?

Sure is easy sitting in your lazyboy talking about how the man who re-invented the Red Wings from the dead things how to spend his money, how much pride he should emphasize, while in his death bed, about the nonsensical playoff streak; which was obvoulsy important to him and his family. It's easy to criticize a team you have very little invested in while pushing the "start" button on your PS4 remote. The real world isn't like your illusion. Pulling the "band-aid" off just isn't as easy as you would like to make believe it is when you consider the aforementioned facts.

And the "overpaid" contracts of Helm and Abby should please you. Their level of skill during the down years should help bring Detroit better draft picks. I mean, isn't that your ultimate goal?

 

[Run the Jewels]

didnt the leafs make the playoffs from 98-04? as well as 93-96

and in those years had four conference finals, hardly dumpster fire rosters

BB was named GM in 2008 after the Leafs had been out of the playoff for TWO(2) years straight(so our situation next June more then likely) and it was here that you notice the terrible plan of trying to rebuild through free agency(awful contracts to awful players) and attempting to make a quick return to the playoffs(quoted as saying he didnt believe or want a long rebuild) completely and utterly fail as predicted

now NO Detroit is not in the exact same situation but I think its not wanting to ever be in that situation that fans are arguing for

Don't worry, Ken Holland said the Wings would have to miss the playoff for 5 years in a row before he thought something was wrong. The team backed into the playoff last year on the final day of the season so that was considered an awesome success! Next year will be the second year in a row and then after that it will take three more seasons in order for them to figure out something needs to be done.

The comparison to the Leafs prior to Shanahan and Babcock is going to become quite accurate in a couple years.

 

[jkutswings]

Seems like double talk. Also it excludes the fact that a aging Mike Ilitch investing in the billion dollar state of the art arena. It also excludes the fact that Detroit Red Wings had like a 25 year playoff streak that ownership was very proud of. It also excludes the fact that Wings had Lidstrom, Datsyuk and still Zetterberg. When are they suppose to rip the "band-aid" off and go full tank mode? And will this 2017 1st overall pick rival McDavid or Matthews?

Sure is easy sitting in your lazyboy talking about how the man who re-invented the Red Wings from the dead things how to spend his money, how much pride he should emphasize, while in his death bed, about the nonsensical playoff streak; which was obvoulsy important to him and his family. It's easy to criticize a team you have very little invested in while pushing the "start" button on your PS4 remote. The real world isn't like your illusion. Pulling the "band-aid" off just isn't as easy as you would like to make believe it is when you consider the aforementioned facts.

And the "overpaid" contracts of Helm and Abby should please you. Their level of skill during the down years should help bring Detroit better draft picks. I mean, isn't that your ultimate goal?

Ahh, so a historic degree of success has no expiration date for collateral, and the franchise can make as many dumb decisions as they like while continuing to trade on their former pedigree. Good to know.

 

[iDangleDangle]

Seems like double talk. Also it excludes the fact that a aging Mike Ilitch investing in the billion dollar state of the art arena. It also excludes the fact that Detroit Red Wings had like a 25 year playoff streak that ownership was very proud of. It also excludes the fact that Wings had Lidstrom, Datsyuk and still Zetterberg. When are they suppose to rip the "band-aid" off and go full tank mode? And will this 2017 1st overall pick rival McDavid or Matthews?

Sure is easy sitting in your lazyboy talking about how the man who re-invented the Red Wings from the dead things how to spend his money, how much pride he should emphasize, while in his death bed, about the nonsensical playoff streak; which was obvoulsy important to him and his family. It's easy to criticize a team you have very little invested in while pushing the "start" button on your PS4 remote. The real world isn't like your illusion. Pulling the "band-aid" off just isn't as easy as you would like to make believe it is when you consider the aforementioned facts.

And the "overpaid" contracts of Helm and Abby should please you. Their level of skill during the down years should help bring Detroit better draft picks. I mean, isn't that your ultimate goal?

Oh, the arm chair GM/EA Sports analogy. How. Original.

I agree that a full on "burn it all the ground" rebuild was out of the question as long as we had two of Dats/Z/Lids. That, however, doesn't excuse the plethora of horrible FA signings and UFA contracts. Holland's asset management has been incrediby short sighted, and way too conservative for the cap era.

 

[Winger98]

Want to know the motivation for change despite not being the worst team in the league? It's Toronto. When you see your club regressing year after year while new power rise around you and surpass you, I think it would be fair to expect management to look at what they're doing and think that, "Hey, maybe what we're doing isn't taking us in the direction we want to go."

And then to change direction a bit. Or at least try to. Instead, they keep their management. They sign the cheap clone of their previous coach. They re-sign as many of their aging and minimally effective vets as possible while bringing in more from other teams.

And the slide continues.

This isn't about burning the whole team down seven years ago, it's about making smaller changes over the past seven years that would provide greater hope for being able to avoid that torched earth. It's moving on from vets and getting something for them rather than letting them walk for nothing.It's not signing guys to poor contracts rather than trading them and moving on. It's not dealing picks/prospects for rentals.

Yeah, seven years ago we looked to still be at least competitive. Same was probably true five years ago. But everyone could see the cliff looming in the distance. Everyone knew we were approaching it and banking on a late draft miracle or a free agent cure wasn't something to lean on if we hoped to avoid that cliff.

Except that's pretty much what we did do, and now we have our stage coach driver clinging to the edge of the cliff with every other horse, buggy, and driver dangling from his feet. Maybe we'll still get lucky and they'll claw themselves back up from the abyss. Maybe our #9 pick will pan out in a huge way this year. Maybe a 12th pick will do the same next year.

Or our fingers will continue to lose purchase and eventually the club is just going to fall because the weight of wasted picks, wasted opportunities and bloated payrolls will prove too much when everything doesn't fall perfectly into place.

 

[jolly roger]

Want to know the motivation for change despite not being the worst team in the league? It's Toronto. When you see your club regressing year after year while new power rise around you and surpass you, I think it would be fair to expect management to look at what they're doing and think that, "Hey, maybe what we're doing isn't taking us in the direction we want to go."

And then to change direction a bit. Or at least try to. Instead, they keep their management. They sign the cheap clone of their previous coach. They re-sign as many of their aging and minimally effective vets as possible while bringing in more from other teams.

And the slide continues.

This isn't about burning the whole team down seven years ago, it's about making smaller changes over the past seven years that would provide greater hope for being able to avoid that torched earth. It's moving on from vets and getting something for them rather than letting them walk for nothing.It's not signing guys to poor contracts rather than trading them and moving on. It's not dealing picks/prospects for rentals.

Yeah, seven years ago we looked to still be at least competitive. Same was probably true five years ago. But everyone could see the cliff looming in the distance. Everyone knew we were approaching it and banking on a late draft miracle or a free agent cure wasn't something to lean on if we hoped to avoid that cliff.

Except that's pretty much what we did do, and now we have our stage coach driver clinging to the edge of the cliff with every other horse, buggy, and driver dangling from his feet. Maybe we'll still get lucky and they'll claw themselves back up from the abyss. Maybe our #9 pick will pan out in a huge way this year. Maybe a 12th pick will do the same next year.

Or our fingers will continue to lose purchase and eventually the club is just going to fall because the weight of wasted picks, wasted opportunities and bloated payrolls will prove too much when everything doesn't fall perfectly into place.

Nothing will happen with Holland and Blashill in charge. Plan B is to have a second favorite team and hope they get fired before you retire.

 

[Dotter]

Oh, the arm chair GM/EA Sports analogy. How. Original.

I agree that a full on "burn it all the ground" rebuild was out of the question as long as we had two of Dats/Z/Lids. That, however, doesn't excuse the plethora of horrible FA signings and UFA contracts. Holland's asset management has been incrediby short sighted, and way too conservative for the cap era.

The FA that Kenny signed were top FA at the time. Nearly every Red Wings fan at the time wanted Weiss over Filppula, which obviously didn't work out... but it's what seemed like a good decision at the time, and Red Wings fan's loved the signing. Everyone loved Alfredsson. Nielson was a top center in the previous FA pool. Ott returned a free pick out of virtually nothing... oh the HORROR getting free draft picks!!!

Your definition of "horrible" is horrible.

 

[Bench]

You're completely ignoring the different positions each team has been in over the past few years. One team missed the playoffs 9/10 seasons, the other team made the playoffs 9/10 seasons. Obviously one team has much more incentive to drastically alter their team building path given those facts.

Let's say we have two 40 year olds guys, neither is at the top of their professions. It's like saying guy A, who works as a janitor making 10 dollars an hour, has the same incentive to quit his job and go back to college as guy B, making 50,000 a year.

You're simply being disingenuous by considering the situations as comparable. A team not even remotely competitive for a decade straight has much more of an incentive to completely change their MO than a middle of the pack team.

Am I being disingenuous? Or was the opening line to my entire post regarding not seeking a 1 to 1 comparison and instead looking at thematic threads.

I admit it's not a perfect analogy, instead suggesting the Wings will become Toronto if they don't change course, and your response is to say "Toronto was bad longer!"

Yeah... Cool. That was the point. To say Toronto didn't change their fate until they​ got serious about building for the future. And if the Wings don't see that as a cautionary tale, they will be guilty of hubris. That they can beat the odds.

So right, they aren't comparable yet. But ask any Toronto fan and they'll wish they had gone all in on the rebuild years ago rather than the Burke slapdash years.

Is this clear yet? I'm really trying here.