The Legacy of Ken Holland

[Steve Yzerlland]

The dressing room Swedish Mafia stuff dysfunction comments he linked basically through Jack Johnson and Justin Abdelkader through poor source protection.

That is the other thing as a faux journalist he doesn't necessarily have to play by the rules but writing things that incendiary then rolling on them shows his true nature to me. I mean to each their own I pay attention to him less and less because he seems more and more sensational and disconnected. I get why the most negative of Detroit fans like the guy, but until he actually starts getting back on his Level of correct information from a decade ago he should be taken with a massive grain of salt in my opinion.

I don't treat everything he says as the gospel truth but he IMO mostly makes good points but most of all makes me laugh.

 

[waltdetroit]

Jack Adams called. He wants that distinction back.

This quote is from wikipedia. Different era but Adams tore apart a team that was expected to win more cups.

"During their seven-season run in first place, many thought the Red Wings would rule the league for years to come.
In 1957, Adams traded Ted Lindsay to Chicago because of union-organizing efforts and had other players affiliated with the effort sent to the minors. As part of the union busting efforts, Adams spread fake rumours attributing Lindsay as criticizing his former teammates. Adams also showed a fake contract to Detroit reporters, claiming Lindsay was being paid $25,000 per year, when he was being paid $13,000.[2] These efforts are dramatized in the TV movie Net Worth.
The efforts resulted in most of the core of this team leaving town and eventually led to Adams being fired in 1963."

 

[Konnan511]

 

[ThankGord]

He actually nailed the salary cap early on. Going from the most expensive team in hockey to get under the cap. Buying out all the right contracts, keeping the right stars. Signing blossoming stars Datsyuk and Zetterberg to ridiculously cheap deals. Restructuring Lidstrom's contract. Finding bargain cheap depth guys like Cleary and Samuelsson who were vital for the Cup win. The 2008 Cup was his greatest accomplishment as a GM, and cements his legacy as one of the best in the business for his first 10-11 years (from 1998-2009).

Then around 2009-2010 he lost site of what worked, and started re-signing those bargain bin depth guys to overpriced lengthy loyalty contracts, instead of letting them walk for their raises. Combine that with the no good, very bad trades of some useful picks/prospects for "veteran depth to keep the streak alive," (Quincey, Legwand, Cole), some bad free agent signings, moves that would become his staple until the end of the 2017 season. The Wings also drafted very poorly from mid 2000s- mid 2010s.

I guess he reacted pretty well in the short-term but his long-term vision wasn't so hot.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I would do Nielsen for Lucic. And put him together with Abdelkader and hit opposite people as much as they can and create some hate against everybody.

Bring the Bruise Brothers back for some entertainment.

Lucic - Larkin - Abdelkader (hate-line)
Bertuzzi - AA - Mantha (normal scoring line)
Zadina - Veleno - Rasmussen/Svechnikov (2 kids and a kid)
Hirose - Glendening - Helm (two goats and a kid)
(Ehn, De La Rose)

Completely biased opinion, but I want MOD Lucic nowhere near this team. Rather have Nielsen any day of the week.

 

[Winger98]

He actually nailed the salary cap early on. Going from the most expensive team in hockey to get under the cap. Buying out all the right contracts, keeping the right stars. Signing blossoming stars Datsyuk and Zetterberg to ridiculously cheap deals. Restructuring Lidstrom's contract. Finding bargain cheap depth guys like Cleary and Samuelsson who were vital for the Cup win. The 2008 Cup was his greatest accomplishment as a GM, and cements his legacy as one of the best in the business for his first 10-11 years (from 1998-2009).

Then around 2009-2010 he lost site of what worked, and started re-signing those bargain bin depth guys to overpriced lengthy loyalty contracts, instead of letting them walk for their raises. Combine that with the no good, very bad trades of some useful picks/prospects for "veteran depth to keep the streak alive," (Quincey, Legwand, Cole), some bad free agent signings, moves that would become his staple until the end of the 2017 season. The Wings also drafted very poorly from mid 2000s- mid 2010s.

Did they, though? I was looking for the average length of an NHL career and ran across this that says over half of NHLers play less than 100 games in their career. Between 2000 and 2015 the Wings have drafted 33 such players, and Alan Quine needs just three more games to add to that total. They've also had 14 guys break the 500 game mark, and will hopefully add to that with guys like Mantha, AA, Larkin, Jarnkrok, Janmark, etc. continuing their careers. So, they aren't just drafting guys who have come up, played ~20 games a year for four or five years. They had drafted guys who have came up, stuck, and enjoyed some pretty significant careers.

They didn't find another Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Kronwall. And the wings hitting on Z&D where they did in their respective drafts is so incredibly rare that it's unfair to expect that to have happened again. But if it had then all of these middle6 forwards that I've seen bad mouthed are suddenly the supporting cast on another team likely making deep runs into the playoff every year.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Did they, though? I was looking for the average length of an NHL career and ran across this that says over half of NHLers play less than 100 games in their career. Between 2000 and 2015 the Wings have drafted 33 such players, and Alan Quine needs just three more games to add to that total. They've also had 14 guys break the 500 game mark, and will hopefully add to that with guys like Mantha, AA, Larkin, Jarnkrok, Janmark, etc. continuing their careers. So, they aren't just drafting guys who have come up, played ~20 games a year for four or five years. They had drafted guys who have came up, stuck, and enjoyed some pretty significant careers.

They didn't find another Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Kronwall. And the wings hitting on Z&D where they did in their respective drafts is so incredibly rare that it's unfair to expect that to have happened again. But if it had then all of these middle6 forwards that I've seen bad mouthed are suddenly the supporting cast on another team likely making deep runs into the playoff every year.

People also make the common mistake of thinking a lot of other teams did much better during this phase. It is sort of the nature of the business. Though our inability to land or develop some of our D-man did ultimately haunt us. I think the mistake was the amount of faith put in McDonnell and to some extent Nill though he had earned that more, but was likely backing his decisions a little too heavily.

The reality is this is a much tougher business than your EA Sports game leads you to believe and the league is in fact setup to make sure you rise and fall. Good decisions can keep that from happening quickly and bad decisions can keep you from rising quickly, but there is a natural ebb and flow to the league. That is what the salary cap is designed to do and has done.

 

[DetroitRed]

What I wonder is why did Holland step aside for Yzerman.

I know former Wings fans who thought Holland should have stepped aside for Yzerman years ago and quit following the team completely because he didn't step aside then. It also occurs to me that around the time Babcock left, he could have stepped aside. It was an end of an era. Or a year or two after, he could have left at the start of the rebuild. My point here is not should have or shouldn't have, but that there have been other seemingly appropriate times when it he could have made his exit...if he wanted to.

So, why now?

Does he feel fans pressured him to leave? Or did the ownership kind of force him out? Or did he think he might like to retire in Edmonton and saw the opportunity there coming?

Apparently, he didn't want to stop being a general manager. So, why finally step aside for Yzerman now, after so many years and so many other opportunities to leave?

 

[Ezekial]

What I wonder is why did Holland step aside for Yzerman.

I know former Wings fans who thought Holland should have stepped aside for Yzerman years ago and quit following the team completely because he didn't step aside then. It also occurs to me that around the time Babcock left, he could have stepped aside. It was an end of an era. Or a year or two after, he could have left at the start of the rebuild. My point here is not should have or shouldn't have, but that there have been other seemingly appropriate times when it he could have made his exit...if he wanted to.

So, why now?

Does he feel fans pressured him to leave? Or did the ownership kind of force him out? Or did he think he might like to retire in Edmonton and saw the opportunity there coming?

Apparently, he didn't want to stop being a general manager. So, why finally step aside for Yzerman now, after so many years and so many other opportunities to leave?

Steve Yzerman was under contract until this offseason and stepped down a year prior to its expiration to assist in the transition. The timing was perfect and whether or not Holland stepped down or was strong armed out, it's the best decision for the organization.

Now, Yzerman's contract was extended in 2014, so he could've come then - but I think he thought he was building something special so I doubt that he would've left then.

 

[DetroitRed]

Steve Yzerman was under contract until this offseason and stepped down a year prior to its expiration to assist in the transition. The timing was perfect and whether or not Holland stepped down or was strong armed out, it's the best decision for the organization.

Now, Yzerman's contract was extended in 2014, so he could've come then - but I think he thought he was building something special so I doubt that he would've left then.

Oh, I'm completely behind the Yzerman move. But I'm not saying should have or shouldn't have here.

The timing was right for it, indeed, but what I'm saying is it's not the first time that it would have been a good chance for Holland to leave. You mentioned another time yourself. Still another time might have been before Steve went to Tampa Bay. Suddenly though, for whatever reason, he finally left. And evidentially, Holland didn't want to quit being a general manager, because he was more interested in going to Edmonton than in the promotion to vice-president here.

I wonder if Holland realized he was coming to the end of his career and wanted to do something nice for Red Wings fans by standing aside since Steve's contract was ending. Or whether Wings ownership finally kind of pushed him out of the GM role. There are other possibilities, like a I mentioned in my first post.

Why questions are big questions.

 

[Ezekial]

Because Ken Holland and ownership know it was the right move. There's really not much more to it.

KH knows what Stevie means to this city, he was in the arena when he was basically chanted out of the building.

 

[Winger98]

People also make the common mistake of thinking a lot of other teams did much better during this phase. It is sort of the nature of the business. Though our inability to land or develop some of our D-man did ultimately haunt us. I think the mistake was the amount of faith put in McDonnell and to some extent Nill though he had earned that more, but was likely backing his decisions a little too heavily.

The reality is this is a much tougher business than your EA Sports game leads you to believe and the league is in fact setup to make sure you rise and fall. Good decisions can keep that from happening quickly and bad decisions can keep you from rising quickly, but there is a natural ebb and flow to the league. That is what the salary cap is designed to do and has done.

I know I didn't appreciate the brevity of careers in the NHL and how rarely folks made it until fairly recently. Look at a guy like Brendan Smith. Rode out of here on a rail for being such a lousy D. But he's a lousy D that's played over 400 games. When over half the league is gone in under 100 games, he was clearly doing something right. These guys we look at as failures were actually incredible successes when compared against what happens with the majority of players who are not only drafted but who actually make it.

What I wonder is why did Holland step aside for Yzerman.

I know former Wings fans who thought Holland should have stepped aside for Yzerman years ago and quit following the team completely because he didn't step aside then. It also occurs to me that around the time Babcock left, he could have stepped aside. It was an end of an era. Or a year or two after, he could have left at the start of the rebuild. My point here is not should have or shouldn't have, but that there have been other seemingly appropriate times when it he could have made his exit...if he wanted to.

So, why now?

Does he feel fans pressured him to leave? Or did the ownership kind of force him out? Or did he think he might like to retire in Edmonton and saw the opportunity there coming?

Apparently, he didn't want to stop being a general manager. So, why finally step aside for Yzerman now, after so many years and so many other opportunities to leave?

He stepped aside because it was Yzerman. First, he went to tampa and established himself as a skilled GM. He is clearly good at the job. But I think what made Holland step aside isn't just the fact that he was leaving the club in good hands, but he was leaving it in the hands of someone who arguably meant more to the Wings than himself. A lot of guys worked very hard off the ice to make the wings relevant. Ilitch, obviously. Devellano. Holland. Bowman. A bunch of scouts. But one guy stepped onto the ice, shouldered the franchise, and defined it. Yzerman means a ton to the Ilitch family, to the franchise, and to the fans. Holland knew this. That's why I think he stepped aside. At this point, bringing Yzerman home was just bigger than him.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know I didn't appreciate the brevity of careers in the NHL and how rarely folks made it until fairly recently. Look at a guy like Brendan Smith. Rode out of here on a rail for being such a lousy D. But he's a lousy D that's played over 400 games. When over half the league is gone in under 100 games, he was clearly doing something right. These guys we look at as failures were actually incredible successes when compared against what happens with the majority of players who are not only drafted but who actually make it.



He stepped aside because it was Yzerman. First, he went to tampa and established himself as a skilled GM. He is clearly good at the job. But I think what made Holland step aside isn't just the fact that he was leaving the club in good hands, but he was leaving it in the hands of someone who arguably meant more to the Wings than himself. A lot of guys worked very hard off the ice to make the wings relevant. Ilitch, obviously. Devellano. Holland. Bowman. A bunch of scouts. But one guy stepped onto the ice, shouldered the franchise, and defined it. Yzerman means a ton to the Ilitch family, to the franchise, and to the fans. Holland knew this. That's why I think he stepped aside. At this point, bringing Yzerman home was just bigger than him.

Holland was onboard with the decision, I get the optics of the quick change over to Edmonton being a bigger question. But this has been in the works for a while despite whatever public timeline they are willing to admit to.

I don't think many in the industry thought he would get full autonomy from Edmonton. I think the plan was Seattle or Vancouver, but once the best player in the world opened up, with his ability to gain full control well that accelerated this by a year. There were realistically only 4 jobs he was going to take Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary.

He gets the other part though like you're saying no doubt. I think he probably would have liked to finish his final year, but once Yzerman immediately wanted to transition to GM it made sense to do it this way. There are not many guys that mean more to the club, but I fully agree Yzerman is one of them and I appreciate Kenny choosing the right moment to step aside. Don't need to hear about 2010 either as that is Yzerman having three years and then riding this thing into the ground, he is much better setup to be successful in this stop. Glad we hopefully don't have to relive Trams again.

 

[Winger98]

Holland was onboard with the decision, I get the optics of the quick change over to Edmonton being a bigger question. But this has been in the works for a while despite whatever public timeline they are willing to admit to.

I don't think many in the industry thought he would get full autonomy from Edmonton. I think the plan was Seattle or Vancouver, but once the best player in the world opened up, with his ability to gain full control well that accelerated this by a year. There were realistically only 4 jobs he was going to take Seattle, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary.

He gets the other part though like you're saying though no doubt. I think he probably would have liked to finish his final year, but once Yzerman immediately wanted to transition to GM it made sense to do it this way. There are not many guys that mean more to the club, but I fully agree Yzerman is one of them and I appreciate Kenny choosing the right moment to step aside. Don't need to hear about 2010 either as that is Yzerman having three years and then riding this thing into the ground, he is much better setup to be successful in this stop. Glad we hopefully don't have to relive Trams again.

I'm still waiting and seeing on this. I just don't have any trust in that management group to follow through on what they promise and staying out of the way. I get the appeal of Edmonton, but I don't think I'd have jumped at that job as long as MacTavish, Lowe, etc. were still in place there. Personally, I've liked watching Edmonton for a long time and hope that Holland can get that place straightened out.

And, yeah, Tram got a raw deal.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm still waiting and seeing on this. I just don't have any trust in that management group to follow through on what they promise and staying out of the way. I get the appeal of Edmonton, but I don't think I'd have jumped at that job as long as MacTavish, Lowe, etc. were still in place there. Personally, I've liked watching Edmonton for a long time and hope that Holland can get that place straightened out.

And, yeah, Tram got a raw deal.

I mean Holland has one interesting thing he can do if they don't follow through on that promise. Yeah he might not get the same contract dollar wise without making way, but do you honestly think Yzerman and Ilitch wouldn't welcome him back in the role he just left? I mean if he gets jerked around in Edmonton by year two or three if they aren't true to their word, Detroit Red Wings Senior Advisor living in BC is still very much an option. They have to know that. I don't think you ever get that outright, the owner has an opinion on some things, but I don't think he is going to be forced on things either, he has a very real exit if the Oilers were lying.

 

[Retire91]

Did they, though? I was looking for the average length of an NHL career and ran across this that says over half of NHLers play less than 100 games in their career. Between 2000 and 2015 the Wings have drafted 33 such players, and Alan Quine needs just three more games to add to that total. They've also had 14 guys break the 500 game mark, and will hopefully add to that with guys like Mantha, AA, Larkin, Jarnkrok, Janmark, etc. continuing their careers. So, they aren't just drafting guys who have come up, played ~20 games a year for four or five years. They had drafted guys who have came up, stuck, and enjoyed some pretty significant careers.

They didn't find another Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Kronwall. And the wings hitting on Z&D where they did in their respective drafts is so incredibly rare that it's unfair to expect that to have happened again. But if it had then all of these middle6 forwards that I've seen bad mouthed are suddenly the supporting cast on another team likely making deep runs into the playoff every year.

I agree I don't think the draft record is as bad as people say, and it has never been part of my beef with Holland. My problem with him was that he 'above all' should have recognized how sub par the core was becoming and at some point commit to the need to rebuild. You know what I mean, sure he didn't find Daytsuk and Zetts again, but at what point do you say okay we need top 5 picks to get a core now. That point should have been about 5-6 years before it happened. I mean you don't trade away picks and prospects for rentals when you can clearly see your team has no shot at the cup and also no solid future core.

Holland did not start a rebuild, the team just became so awful the rebuild started itself.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I agree I don't think the draft record is as bad as people say, and it has never been part of my beef with Holland. My problem with him was that he 'above all' should have recognized how sub par the core was becoming and at some point commit to the need to rebuild. You know what I mean, sure he didn't find Daytsuk and Zetts again, but at what point do you say okay we need top 5 picks to get a core now. That point should have been about 5-6 years before it happened. I mean you don't trade away picks and prospects for rentals when you can clearly see your team has no shot at the cup and also no solid future core.

Holland did not start a rebuild, the team just became so awful the rebuild started itself.

What do you do if you advise your owner that and he says try to extend the playoff streak as long as you can?

 

[nuck]

What do you do if you advise your owner that and he says try to extend the playoff streak as long as you can?

When do you start the rebuild? In 14-15 after a 100pt season? Zero chance of that, and in 15-16 they were 41 and 30 so how would you sell that as a time to blow things up? Playoff streak or not it would have to be visionary ownership the said "yeah lets flush it". And if in 15-16 you convinced your owner the writing was on the wall before the 16-17 collapse Zetterberg is coming off a 13 goal season and Dats is 37 years old so even if your old guard said "we will accept a trade", you get little back. They are the victims of not failing early enough.

 

[Henkka]

They are the victims of not failing early enough.

Yeah. And because they were too good.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I would do Nielsen for Lucic. And put him together with Abdelkader and hit opposite people as much as they can and create some hate against everybody.

Bring the Bruise Brothers back for some entertainment.

Lucic - Larkin - Abdelkader (hate-line)
Bertuzzi - AA - Mantha (normal scoring line)
Zadina - Veleno - Rasmussen/Svechnikov (2 kids and a kid)
Hirose - Glendening - Helm (two goats and a kid)
(Ehn, De La Rose)

Larkin would be lucky to hit 35 points if he played with those guys for an entire season.

Only way I'd take Lucic for Nielsen is if Holland is retaining 50% of Lucic's contract, while taking on as close to 100% of Nielsen's as possible.

Nielsen's deal is slightly cheaper with a year less term, and he's WAY more useful than Lucic. He can actually keep up with todays NHL, rarely takes penalties, while he can kill the ones his teammates take, and while not ideal, can still fill a #2C role if needed. Lucic on the other hand can beat people up once every 20 or so games, take dumb penalties and float around on the PP.

 

[Henkka]

Lucic is not that bad. It's just totally overblown because of his caphit vs. level of play.

He has sucked as a 1st line linemates, yeah.

But mostly when he plays at middle6, he's very far from worst forward at the Oilers.

He is just typical victim of overpaid player in Edmonton's nega-NEGA-tivity scapegoat hating environment.

3M Lucic is a good deal.

 

[obey86]

Lucic is not that bad. It's just totally overblown because of his caphit vs. level of play.

He has sucked as a 1st line linemates, yeah.

But mostly when he plays at middle6, he's very far from worst forward at the Oilers.

He is just typical victim of overpaid player in Edmonton's nega-NEGA-tivity scapegoat hating environment.

3M Lucic is a good deal.

3M for a 20 point season isn't a good deal.

 

[The Zermanator]

Lucic is not that bad. It's just totally overblown because of his caphit vs. level of play.

He has sucked as a 1st line linemates, yeah.

But mostly when he plays at middle6, he's very far from worst forward at the Oilers.

He is just typical victim of overpaid player in Edmonton's nega-NEGA-tivity scapegoat hating environment.

3M Lucic is a good deal.

So why would you ever want to saddle Larkin with Lucic and Abdelkader?

 

[Gniwder]

So why would you ever want to saddle Larkin with Lucic and Abdelkader?

Draft lottery?

 

[Henkka]

So why would you ever want to saddle Larkin with Lucic and Abdelkader?

Why not?

Yzerman was put with Probert and Kocur.

I would do Nielsen for Lucic. And put him together with Abdelkader and hit opposite people as much as they can and create some hate against everybody.

Bring the Bruise Brothers back for some entertainment.

There's the answer for you WHY oh WHY -people.