The Legacy of Ken Holland

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well that's when you have a little bit of understanding and grace, and treat loyal players like human beings in a familial environment, which is an image the Wings org has tried to cultivate.

On a personal level, Holland signing an extension then doing some hockey work and realizing how much he still wants to be GM and asking for a move isn't all that different from Datsyuk signing a deal and going on vacation and realizing he's ready to move on and enjoy his home and his family. The lambasting of his character and implication that he 'swindled' the Wings from the same fans who cheered him on when he was winning them Cups while dismissing a similar action from Holland is just too thick with hypocrisy to ignore.

There are cap implications with Datsyuk but as was demonstrated at the first possible opportunity in the offseason those were far from insurmountable. They should have moved his contract, thanked him for his service, and wished him the best in the future. Just not in a passive-aggressive jilted ex way which they did.

What? Holland signed an extension that included a clause that if a team wanted him to be GM he could leave. Holland had already essentially stepped aside for Yzerman. Being senior VP is kind of like a promotion to being a figurehead. It's a fancy title for a guy who doesn't have a say in day to day actions anymore. Datsyuk could have signed year to year deals if he was worried about going to Russia. If he wanted to go home as badly as you say in 2015, he would not have been negotiating starting with a 5 year deal. Gary Greenstin and Datsyuk made it clear that if Holland went year by year, which was the intelligent way to go, Datsyuk would not sign with Detroit. Datsyuk clearly was not playing "loyalty" or "family" with Detroit. And frankly, if he was missing home, his opportunity to go home and not be bound by a contract was right there. He was a UFA when the deal went. He could have done year to year and nobody would have been put out or whatever. But he and Greenstin wanted a big payday, wanted more money than Detroit could give him year to year.

I did miss the senior VP extension, so I was wrong on that point.

Would you be thinking that Al Murray was a jackass if he had left Tampa to come to Detroit? It isn't a similar action. Datsyuk signed an extension ostensibly saying he wanted to play and then wanted gone after year one. And so there isn't "blah rumors", Ken Holland and co threatened to toll his contract for years two and three if he didn't come back. That was an action that happened. Holland signed an extension for senior VP that had an out clause if a team came and wanted him for a GM slot. These two scenarios are only similar in your mind, where you think Datsyuk has been mortally wronged. They aren't similar at all. One contract was binding and forced a move. The other included a clause in the written text that allowed him to leave.

 

[Frk It]

Where are we getting this clause from?

 

[The Zermanator]

Regardless of any clauses that may or may not exist, they're irrelevant. He was still signed for another year anyway, he was under contract in Detroit already. He didn't need to sign another extension to remain so just the fact that he did proves that there was an element of surprise there. You can slice it any way you want with semantics, fact is he signed two different contracts in a matter of weeks. Technically he skipped out on 2 contracts.

 

[ricky0034]

i for one am looking forward to the next step in this whole Datsyuk contract "debate" where Zermanantor moves on from comparing it to Zetterberg and Holland and suggests that if we want to blame Datsyuk for walking on his contract we should all rip into Konstantinov as well for not honoring his,dude didn't even play a single game from 1998 on what gives?

 

[The Zermanator]

My point is not even that Holland should lose any points for all this. I completely understand why he made the choice he did. Just find it strange the distinction between his treatment, in the org and around here, and Datsyuk's (and by extension, Fedorov's). My feelings is there is undue stubbornness and bitterness on the Ilitch side of things, given the success and riches these individuals have brought them, for things to have gotten to this point but to each their own.

Personally I think they are all human and they all made decisions that from some perspective made sense. The franchise ultimately did/will recover from all of them, and that in the grand scheme it doesn't diminish the tremendous benefits having these people around brought the Wings, and that they should each receive their due recognition and remembrance.

 

[The Zermanator]

i for one am looking forward to the next step in this whole Datsyuk contract "debate" where Zermanantor moves on from comparing it to Zetterberg and Holland and suggests that if we want to blame Datsyuk for walking on his contract we should all rip into Konstantinov as well for not honoring his,dude didn't even play a single game from 1998 on what gives?

Haha the severe injury and disability of a beloved Red Wing. Good one?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

My point is not even that Holland should lose any points for all this. I completely understand why he made the choice he did. Just find it strange the distinction between his treatment, in the org and around here, and Datsyuk's (and by extension, Fedorov's). My feelings is there is undue stubbornness and bitterness on the Ilitch side of things, given the success and riches these individuals have brought them, for things to have gotten to this point but to each their own.

Personally I think they are all human and they all made decisions that from some perspective made sense. The franchise ultimately did/will recover from all of them, and that in the grand scheme it doesn't diminish the tremendous benefits having these people around brought the Wings, and that they should each receive their due recognition and remembrance.

Holland was displaced by the Red Wings making a move and the Red Wings clearly did not have an issue with him talking to Edmonton.
Fedorov was holding out from the Wings and signed a poison pill contract to get out of Detroit... and then the 2003 thing was the Ilitches perhaps wrongly taking a harder tack on him in those negotiations because of the holdout and RFA deal he signed in 1997.
Datsyuk signed a contract, tried walking out of it after year one, almost got his contract tolled, did walk out after year two.

How on Earth do you see any of those three as the same thing?

Contract 1 involved a team signing a guy to an extension that clearly allowed him to seek other employment as well, because if it didn't, he wouldn't have been talking to Edmonton as he was under contract.

Contract 2 involved a player holding out in his RFA negotiations for 2/3rds of a season, signing a contract that was pretty notably designed to **** over his old team if they matched it.

Contract 3 involved a player signing a 3 year contract after pushing for a 5 year contract, when management was content going year to year and then almost immediately wishing he had gone year to year. Then boldly stating his desire to leave with two years left when the cap hit was determined that it would remain on the books.

Seriously, one of these things is not like the other. It's not undue at all. Fedorov and Datsyuk did things that actively disrupted the fortune of the Detroit Red Wings. Ken Holland accepted a "promotion" to a non-managerial role to get out of the way of Yzerman as GM and was clearly allowed to talk to Edmonton by Ilitch or else he wouldn't have been able to receive a contract offer.

 

[Retire91]

Fedorov didn't want out of Detroit he just wanted a huge payday that made him more of 'the guy' in Detroit and not living "in his own mind" in the shadow of other HOF players. I think he did himself and his career a great disservice for his actions and paid for by the way his career went more than any fan or organizational grudge could offer. IMO Fedorov wanted to be a rock star and the Illitch organization is more of a family/club membership. I think their perceptions of reality clashed. I honestly think the Fedorov situation hurt Fedorov, the organization moved on.

Daytsuk didn't hurt the organization in any way shape or form. Daytsuk signing year to year probably would have been even more expensive for the wings. Imagine the price tag on the free market of one year of Daytsuk. Daytsuk simply got sick of Holland's dumpster fire of a roster and its degradation with every season. If you want to fault anyone for Daytsuk leaving the fault squarely resides with Holland. If it hurt the organization at all it was again on Holland, he didn't need to trade the contract.

I can't believe Holland's contract is even having a discussion. I don't care if he was signed for another 20 years. He signed a sweethart country club deal to have a corner office and lifetime seats in the family suite. Why on earth would anyone care if he broke that contract? Nothing has been better for the organization in the last 10 years than Holland leaving.

Apples and oranges across the board

 

[Electric Eric]

Why are we quoting his position on analytics from 2014. We hired analytics people after that... Okay, good digging Marek.

Just a quick FYI, that Marek tweet/quote is from 2014. Not something recent.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Just a quick FYI, that Marek tweet/quote is from 2014. Not something recent.

I guess that was harsh on Marek, so it will just go to why are we quoting things from 2014 when we know that changed directly after that.

 

[Henkka]

Hah, analytics.

What Holland said about analytics at the Oilers press, was just perfect what I would want to hear from my GM.

They give some insight, one dimension on the decision making. Then you watch players live (eye-test), hear other peoples opinions and put all those things together. Then you are ready to make a decision.

Just like it should be done.

 

[ThankGord]

I can't believe Holland's contract is even having a discussion. I don't care if he was signed for another 20 years. He signed a sweethart country club deal to have a corner office and lifetime seats in the family suite. Why on earth would anyone care if he broke that contract? Nothing has been better for the organization in the last 10 years than Holland leaving.

I assumed it was a ceremonial position/contract as a show of gratitude until he landed a new GM position anyways. Not sure why anyone would be upset about him breaking it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I assumed it was a ceremonial position/contract as a show of gratitude until he landed a new GM position anyways. Not sure why anyone would be upset about him breaking it.

Oh, you'd be surprised.

 

[Bondurant]

The legacy of Holland will be all the more brighter if he takes Abdelkader and/or DeKeyser and/or Nielsen contract(s) with him to Edmonton. Not holding my breath but it would be nice.

I was just browsing Cap Friendly. Didn't realize the contacts were that bad. Abby's on lockdown till '23-'24.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Jeff Moss sums up Holland's legacy. GREAT listen.

 

[Henkka]

The legacy of Holland will be all the more brighter if he takes Abdelkader and/or DeKeyser and/or Nielsen contract(s) with him to Edmonton. Not holding my breath but it would be nice.

I was just browsing Cap Friendly. Didn't realize the contacts were that bad. Abby's on lockdown till '23-'24.

I would do Nielsen for Lucic. And put him together with Abdelkader and hit opposite people as much as they can and create some hate against everybody.

Bring the Bruise Brothers back for some entertainment.

Lucic - Larkin - Abdelkader (hate-line)
Bertuzzi - AA - Mantha (normal scoring line)
Zadina - Veleno - Rasmussen/Svechnikov (2 kids and a kid)
Hirose - Glendening - Helm (two goats and a kid)
(Ehn, De La Rose)

 

[Frk It]

Jeff Moss sums up Holland's legacy. GREAT listen.

No one cares about this super biased mouth vomit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

While Jeff Moss does have some connections in town there are areas you can tell he flies at blindly and completely makes stuff up. He has none in upper management with the Wings and virtually all of his points and counterpoint arguments reflect that. He used to have the odd dressing room point that somewhat checked out. However, I think he burned that bridge when he inexplicably and gutlessly outed Abby as a source a few years back.

The guy burns too many bridges and has paid the price. While he used to occasionally flop a big story I think those days are over because of how he chooses to conduct himself. It's a part of who he is, but he hasn't had a ton of credible info in a while now, especially in regards to the Wings.

His best intel seemed to be from the Dumars era Pistons.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

No one cares about this super biased mouth vomit.

Actually a lot of people care. He has a decent audience and he is hilarious.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

While Jeff Moss does have some connections in town there are areas you can tell he flies at blindly and completely makes stuff up. He has none in upper management with the Wings and virtually all of his points and counterpoint arguments reflect that. He used to have the odd dressing room point that somewhat checked out. However, I think he burned that bridge when he inexplicably and gutlessly outed Abby as a source a few years back.

The guy burns too many bridges and has paid the price. While he used to occasionally flop a big story I think those days are over because of how he chooses to conduct himself. It's a part of who he is, but he hasn't had a ton of credible info in a while now, especially in regards to the Wings.

His best intel seemed to be from the Dumars era Pistons.

He outed Gator saying what? I never heard of this.

 

[TheClap]

Holland has had a rough transition adjusting to the salary cap but I think he's starting to catch on, the last couple of years have been alright. Very happy to skip what remains of that transition and go straight to a more modern GM in Yzerman though. I'll be rooting for Kenny, hope he can build something half-way decent around McDavid and Draisaitl.

He actually nailed the salary cap early on. Going from the most expensive team in hockey to get under the cap. Buying out all the right contracts, keeping the right stars. Signing blossoming stars Datsyuk and Zetterberg to ridiculously cheap deals. Restructuring Lidstrom's contract. Finding bargain cheap depth guys like Cleary and Samuelsson who were vital for the Cup win. The 2008 Cup was his greatest accomplishment as a GM, and cements his legacy as one of the best in the business for his first 10-11 years (from 1998-2009).

Then around 2009-2010 he lost site of what worked, and started re-signing those bargain bin depth guys to overpriced lengthy loyalty contracts, instead of letting them walk for their raises. Combine that with the no good, very bad trades of some useful picks/prospects for "veteran depth to keep the streak alive," (Quincey, Legwand, Cole), some bad free agent signings, moves that would become his staple until the end of the 2017 season. The Wings also drafted very poorly from mid 2000s- mid 2010s.

 

[TheClap]

In any event Ken Holland's legacy is as the greatest GM in franchise history.

Jack Adams called. He wants that distinction back.

 

[TheClap]

Giving up a pick just to move 1 year of a contract in a season you probably won't even make the playoffs to sign mediocrity for long term. That move is such a quintessential Holland 2009-2017 move and embodies everything that was wrong with the management of the team during that era.

This probably the first of the few good things Holland starting doing near the end of his tenure. That trade allowed him to enter the Stamkos sweepstakes. His biggest error was when that fell through, panicking and thinking this team could still be competitive and deciding Nielson and bringing back Helm was the answer. He should have accepted the rebuild then and sat on the cap space.

They missed out on Chychrun, but at this juncture I think I prefer the combo of Cholowski and Hronek they got instead.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Jack Adams called. He wants that distinction back.

He lost it, Holland has more wins in a tougher era and didn't do nearly as many ridiculous things ala Kelly and Lindsay. Thems the breaks.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He outed Gator saying what? I never heard of this.

The dressing room Swedish Mafia stuff dysfunction comments he linked basically through Jack Johnson and Justin Abdelkader through poor source protection.

That is the other thing as a faux journalist he doesn't necessarily have to play by the rules but writing things that incendiary then rolling on them shows his true nature to me. I mean to each their own I pay attention to him less and less because he seems more and more sensational and disconnected. I get why the most negative of Detroit fans like the guy, but until he actually starts getting back on his Level of correct information from a decade ago he should be taken with a massive grain of salt in my opinion.