Rumor: The Leafs have been linked to the following: Faulk (CAR), Tanev (VAN), OEL (AZ), Martinez (LA)...

[GoldiFox]

It's almost like there's an excuse for everything....

And here is another example of people using excuses to downplay Leafs players...Ok, how abou this...

Jake Gardiner
2011-12 30 points (Care to tell me about that great Leafs team?)
2013-14 31 points...same as Faulk last season...that team was a real juggernaut right?
2015-16 31 points again...same as Faulk again...on the team that finished DEAD ****ING LAST.

Maybe....juuuuust maybe Gardiner is equal to or better than Faulk?

Past 2 years all situations:

	GP	G	A	Points	P1	P/60	P1/60
Gardiner	164	14	78	92	49	1.53	0.82
Faulk	151	25	40	65	44	1.14	0.77

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wow... It's almost like it completely wipes out Gardiner's advantage when you take out all the times he just passed the puck to someone who then made a nice play. Who would have thought given all the arguments here that Toronto is a much better offensive team?

You are left with Faulk who is a much better goal scorer (as also listed above). Note that this includes Faulk's terrible year last year as well as Gardiner's career year. This is worst-case for Faulk and best-case for Gardiner.

Don't let the facts (or "excuses") cloud your thinking though.

 

[Notsince67]

Past 2 years all situations:

	GP	G	A	Points	P1	P/60	P1/60
Gardiner	164	14	78	92	49	1.53	0.82
Faulk	151	25	40	65	44	1.14	0.77

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Wow... It's almost like it completely wipes out Gardiner's advantage when you take out all the times he just passed the puck to someone who then made a nice play. Who would have thought given all the arguments here that Toronto is a much better offensive team?

You are left with Faulk who is a much better goal scorer (as also listed above). Note that this includes Faulk's terrible year last year as well as Gardiner's career year. This is worst-case for Faulk and best-case for Gardiner.

Don't let the facts (or "excuses") cloud your thinking though.

Already dealt with. Faulk had more offensive side starts than Gardiner.

 

[Liferleafer]

How about this? . Last 4 seasons for each player:

Faulk: 154 points in 297 games played, all 4 seasons on bad, low scoring teams
Gardiner 150 points in 322 games played, 2 on bad teams, 2 on very good, high scoring teams.

I won't get into a Faulk vs. Gardiner pissing contest but looking at one season's worth of work to assess a player is silly. Faulk had a bad year and nobody debates that. If it happens again next year, I'll be concerned but I don't think it will.

LOL..."Faulk had a bad year...he'll be fine!!"......."Gardiner had a bad game....he sucks!!!!"

I will play along...the Leafs biggest weakness? Defense....Canes biggest strength? Defense...

So, using your last 4 seasons standard:
Faulk 297 games played -85
Gardiner 322 games -5

Now, i know the Leafs scored more goals over the last 2 seasons than the Canes, but i highly doubt Gardiner was on for all 80 goals.

 

[GoldiFox]

Already dealt with. Faulk had more offensive side starts than Gardiner.

A couple less offensive zone starts makes a guy rack up an inordinate amount of secondary assets on a stacked offensive team? Strange correlation.

 

[Critical13]

It's almost like he played for a team that didn't have nearly as many offensive tools.

Justin Faulk has a deadly point shot and would dramatically boost the Leafs already deadly power play. Faulk's shot has to be respected on the power play, otherwise he will burn you. In 2106, he had 12 power play goals, (Gardiner's career high is 2) and if you have to defend against him at the point, the Leafs talented forwards have way more time and space to wreck havoc down-low.

Faulk, while not talented defensively is at least not as mentally challenged as Gardiner is in terms of repeated brain cramps.

If the Leafs could add Faulk and dump Gardiner, they are unquestionably and improved club and already deadly offence and power play gets much, much better.

So are we just going to ignore both traditional stats and advanced stats now?

Gardiner was better in every measurable way.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

LOL..."Faulk had a bad year...he'll be fine!!"......."Gardiner had a bad game....he sucks!!!!"

I will play along...the Leafs biggest weakness? Defense....Canes biggest strength? Defense...

So, using your last 4 seasons standard:
Faulk 297 games played -85
Gardiner 322 games -5

Now, i know the Leafs scored more goals over the last 2 seasons than the Canes, but i highly doubt Gardiner was on for all 80 goals.

Will you stop with your incessant persecution complex? Any time anyone says anything remotely negative about a Leafs player, you say the same thing again and again. Makes it hard to take what you say seriously. I'm not saying Gardiner is bad or that Faulk is better. I'm not saying Faulk to TOR makes sense (in fact, I said it doesn't make sense). I was simply responding to your post where you took the worst season in the past 5 years for Faulk to make your point and that you refuse to acknowledge that the team a guy plays for has a big impact. Guys have up and down years, particularly on bad teams. I think he'll bounce back given that he's put up 15-17 goals 3 straight years prior to this, had a lot of shots this year but his SH% was down, if you don't, that's fine.

RE: your +/- comment. Nowhere did I say that Faulk was good defensively, NOWHERE, in fact, he isn't. That said, a team's GF (ability to score) and GA (goaltending) are huge components of +/-. For example:

Toronto:
14/15: 206GF, 136 5v5 GF, 257 GA: Gardiner 24P, -23
15/16: 192 GF, 120 5v5 GF, 240 GA: Gardiner 31P, -15
16/17: 250 GF, 169 5v5 GF, 237 GA: Gardiner 43P, +24
17/18: 270 GF, 197 5v5 GF, 230 GA: Gardiner 52P, +9

Are you really trying to say the team a guy plays on doesn't impact both his scoring and +/-? If so, that's an interesting take.

 

[Brock Radunske]

MAB also had a booming shot and was bad at defense...

 

[Liferleafer]

A couple less offensive zone starts makes a guy rack up an inordinate amount of secondary assets on a stacked offensive team? Strange correlation.

Ah the old "secondary assist" monster rears it's ugly head yet again....God forbid a Dman be good at making a breakout pass.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Unfortunately, we Canes fans saw first hand what MAB was. That was in our glory years when our Defense consisted of Faulk, Tim Gleason, Jay Harrison, Jamie McBain, Joe Corvo, and Bobby Sanguinetti (the year Pitkanen had his career ending injury). If there's a barf emoji, I need it.

Seeing them 1st hand, MAB was much worse defensively than Faulk. He also wasn't as good offensively either.

 

[Notsince67]

Will you stop with your incessant persecution complex? Any time anyone says anything remotely negative about a Leafs player, you say the same thing again and again. Makes it hard to take what you say seriously. I'm not saying Gardiner is bad or that Faulk is better. I'm not saying Faulk to TOR makes sense (in fact, I said it doesn't make sense). I was simply responding to your post where you took the worst season in the past 5 years for Faulk to make your point and that you refuse to acknowledge that the team a guy plays for has a big impact. Guys have up and down years, particularly on bad teams. I think he'll bounce back given that he's put up 15-17 goals 3 straight years prior to this, had a lot of shots this year but his SH% was down, if you don't, that's fine.

RE: your +/- comment. Nowhere did I say that Faulk was good defensively, NOWHERE, in fact, he isn't. That said, a team's GF (ability to score) and GA (goaltending) are huge components of +/-. For example:

Toronto:
14/15: 206GF, 136 5v5 GF, 257 GA: Gardiner 24P, -23
15/16: 192 GF, 120 5v5 GF, 240 GA: Gardiner 31P, -15
16/17: 250 GF, 169 5v5 GF, 237 GA: Gardiner 43P, +24
17/18: 270 GF, 197 5v5 GF, 230 GA: Gardiner 52P, +9

Are you really trying to say the team a guy plays on doesn't impact both his scoring and +/-? If so, that's an interesting take.

And I only said that Faulk was a smaller worse version of Gardiner on the other side. It was a point being made in response to Nylander for Faulk. I don't hate Gardiner at all but most people would value Nylander above him.

 

[Martin Skoula]

A couple less offensive zone starts makes a guy rack up an inordinate amount of secondary assets on a stacked offensive team? Strange correlation.

Offensive zone starts are usually set plays, less touches on the puck are required to get the shot on net. Gardiner got a lot of offense started on the breakout, logic would stand that there was more touches on the puck between him getting the breakout going and the puck being put on net.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

And I only said that Faulk was a smaller worse version of Gardiner on the other side. It was a point being made in response to Nylander for Faulk. I don't hate Gardiner at all but most people would value Nylander above him.

You were probably responding to a poster that posts crap like that all the time (Faulk for Nylander). Trust me, it's best to not respond to him.

 

[Liferleafer]

Will you stop with your incessant persecution complex? Any time anyone says anything remotely negative about a Leafs player, you say the same thing again and again. Makes it hard to take what you say seriously. I'm not saying Gardiner is bad or that Faulk is better. I'm not saying Faulk to TOR makes sense (in fact, I said it doesn't make sense). I was simply responding to your post where you took the worst season in the past 5 years for Faulk to make your point and that you refuse to acknowledge that the team a guy plays for has a big impact. Guys have up and down years, particularly on bad teams. I think he'll bounce back given that he's put up 15-17 goals 3 straight years prior to this, had a lot of shots this year but his SH% was down, if you don't, that's fine.

RE: your +/- comment. Nowhere did I say that Faulk was good defensively, NOWHERE, in fact, he isn't. That said, a team's GF (ability to score) and GA (goaltending) are huge components of +/-. For example:

Toronto:
14/15: 206GF, 136 5v5 GF, 257 GA: Gardiner 24P, -23
15/16: 192 GF, 120 5v5 GF, 240 GA: Gardiner 31P, -15
16/17: 250 GF, 169 5v5 GF, 237 GA: Gardiner 43P, +24
17/18: 270 GF, 197 5v5 GF, 230 GA: Gardiner 52P, +9

Are you really trying to say the team a guy plays on doesn't impact both his scoring and +/-? If so, that's an interesting take.

See that bolded one? Guess where the team that came from finished that season....here's a hint, it finished with 69 points and is the reason we drafted Matthews the following draft. That same year, Faulk was a -22 in only 64 games on a team that finished with 86 points...17 more than Toronto. So how does Faulk end up with a worse +/- in 15 less games on a better team?

This is in no way a pesonal attack toward you or any Canes fan, this is in general to any non-Leafs fan bashing us for saying no to Faulk, we have our version of him, we don't need to trade assets for another 1.

 

[FerrisRox]

One year removed you say? well, Gardiner just finished a 52 point season with a +9, and people are calling him dog ****. So as great as Faulk's season 2 years ago was (and it was still only 37 points and -18)....if Gardiner's 52 point year isn't valuable...what's that mean for Faulk's 31 point -26 season he just had?

Faulk for Nylander...lol.

Why are you saying Faulk for Nylander at the end of the post? It has nothing to do with anything I've ever said.

 

[Liferleafer]

Why are you saying Faulk for Nylander at the end of the post? It has nothing to do with anything I've ever said.

Not directed at you....just in general.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I don't think there's much chance they would move Hanafin for Nylander. If they moved Hanafin, the would need to be getting a bonafide center in return.

It's a catch 22 because at the same time, Toronto would need a much better defenseman than Hanifin coming back for Nylander.

 

[FerrisRox]

It's a catch 22 because at the same time, Toronto would need a much better defenseman than Hanifin coming back for Nylander.

I guess it really depends on what kind of defenseman you think Hanafin is tracking to be. I personally think Hanafin would be an outstanding addition to the Maple Leafs.

 

[Liferleafer]

I guess it really depends on what kind of defenseman you think Hanafin is tracking to be. I personally think Hanafin would be an outstanding addition to the Maple Leafs.

He would be, but at what cost? You are still buying potential with him, so if the answer is Nylander...then it's a swift pass.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Will you stop with your incessant persecution complex? Any time anyone says anything remotely negative about a Leafs player, you say the same thing again and again. Makes it hard to take what you say seriously. I'm not saying Gardiner is bad or that Faulk is better. I'm not saying Faulk to TOR makes sense (in fact, I said it doesn't make sense). I was simply responding to your post where you took the worst season in the past 5 years for Faulk to make your point and that you refuse to acknowledge that the team a guy plays for has a big impact. Guys have up and down years, particularly on bad teams. I think he'll bounce back given that he's put up 15-17 goals 3 straight years prior to this, had a lot of shots this year but his SH% was down, if you don't, that's fine.

RE: your +/- comment. Nowhere did I say that Faulk was good defensively, NOWHERE, in fact, he isn't. That said, a team's GF (ability to score) and GA (goaltending) are huge components of +/-. For example:

Toronto:
14/15: 206GF, 136 5v5 GF, 257 GA: Gardiner 24P, -23
15/16: 192 GF, 120 5v5 GF, 240 GA: Gardiner 31P, -15
16/17: 250 GF, 169 5v5 GF, 237 GA: Gardiner 43P, +24
17/18: 270 GF, 197 5v5 GF, 230 GA: Gardiner 52P, +9

Are you really trying to say the team a guy plays on doesn't impact both his scoring and +/-? If so, that's an interesting take.

Your ignoring the fact that he was like 23 years old in 2014/2015.. of course you expect a defenders stats to increase as they enter their prime.... there is not really a way to separate the influence of the team being better or Gardiner improving as a player as he matures.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Ah the old "secondary assist" monster rears it's ugly head yet again....God forbid a Dman be good at making a breakout pass.

If people watched Gardiner they would see why he gets a lot of secondary assists.... makes the long stretch passes to create 2 on 1s and is great at hitting a forward breaking the blue line with speed.

It is just so funny, I mean do they give out the Art Ross to the player who gets the most goals + primary assists?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

See that bolded one? Guess where the team that came from finished that season....here's a hint, it finished with 69 points and is the reason we drafted Matthews the following draft. That same year, Faulk was a -22 in only 64 games on a team that finished with 86 points...17 more than Toronto. So how does Faulk end up with a worse +/- in 15 less games on a better team?

1) Are you really arguing small differences in +/- for 1 single season? Really? You keep cherry picking 1 specific season to try to make a point vs. larger body of work.
2) For the third time, the point isn't about Faulk being better or worse than Gardiner. The point I've been stating is that the team you play DOES impact both +/- and points. Why you refuse to acknowledge it when the data is staring you right in the face is beyond me. It's common sense.
3) Nobody, and I mean nobody is stating Faulk is good defensively.
4) That season you point to, Faulk saw the toughest competition on the Canes and had the least ozone starts (along with Hainsey). Not the case with Gardiner. The differences in terms of scoring wasn't that great between the teams that year. Canes had 12 more 5v5 goals and 2 less 5v5 GA. That's it.

This is in no way a pesonal attack toward you or any Canes fan, this is in general to any non-Leafs fan bashing us for saying no to Faulk, we have our version of him, we don't need to trade assets for another 1.

I'm not taking it as a personal attack. You are the one with the persecution complex anytime anyone says anything remotely negative about a Leafs player. I think Faulk is a BAD match for Toronto and as a Canes fan 1st, Leafs 2nd, I wouldn't trade for him if I was the Leafs. He's not what the team needs IMO. Just if you are going to make arguments against a player, then make sound arguments with sound data, not picking small snippets that don't represent the larger body of work, which is what you are doing.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Your ignoring the fact that he was like 23 years old in 2014/2015.. of course you expect a defenders stats to increase as they enter their prime.... there is not really a way to separate the influence of the team being better or Gardiner improving as a player as he matures.

Oh come on. It's common sense that when a team goes from scoring 192 goals in one season to 250 the next to 270 the next, that a player, who gets most of his points as assists is going to get more points. I can't believe you are even trying to debate this.

And for the record, he was 24 to start the 14/15 season and 25 to start the 15/16 season.

I watch a ton of the Leafs as they are my second team. I've seen a lot of Gardiner and he isn't magically better offensively, he always had skill, just there wasn't much finish on the Leafs outside of the Kessel-Bozak-JVR line and Kadri on and off. The addition of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander changed the landscape of your team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

By the way, I should be clear on my position here:
1) I don't think the Leafs should trade for Faulk.
2) If they do, they shouldn't (and won't) trade Nylander for him
3) I don't think he's better than Gardiner. I also don't think they are similar players.

• Gardiner is a better skater (although Faulk may be faster straightline, he's not as agile or not as good in transition)
• Faulk is a stronger physically.
  
• Gardiner is a better puck handler and passer.
  
• Faulk is a better shooter.
  
• Neither are great defensively, but both look good at times with brain farts that make them inconsistent. Gardiner is better defensively in transition, Faulk is better along the boards and down low.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Oh come on. It's common sense that when a team goes from scoring 192 goals in one season to 250 the next to 270 the next, that a player, who gets most of his points as assists is going to get more points. I can't believe you are even trying to debate this.

And for the record, he was 24 to start the 14/15 season and 25 to start the 15/16 season.

I watch a ton of the Leafs as they are my second team. I've seen a lot of Gardiner and he isn't magically better offensively, he always had skill, just there wasn't much finish on the Leafs outside of the Kessel-Bozak-JVR line and Kadri on and off. The addition of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander changed the landscape of your team.

Of course being on a better team helped him produce more but so did getting a big increase in his ATOI as he entered him prime as well as becoming a better playmaker.

He also gets a lot of assists as he shoots for tips all the time. Getting a lot of assists is not a negative trait of a defender... just means they are good at moving the puck.

His offense is not purely a product of the team, to a degree the Leafs high offensive is a product of Gardiner driving play.

Just so sick of hearing every single player on the Leafs is a product of the team when a lot of them are just good offensive players who help the team become so good offensively and are not passengers.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

By the way, I should be clear on my position here:
1) I don't think the Leafs should trade for Faulk.
2) If they do, they shouldn't (and won't) trade Nylander for him
3) I don't think he's better than Gardiner. I also don't think they are similar players.

• Gardiner is a better skater (although Faulk may be faster straightline, he's not as agile or not as good in transition)
• Faulk is a stronger physically.
  
• Gardiner is a better puck handler and passer.
  
• Faulk is a better shooter.
  
• Neither are great defensively, but both look good at times with brain farts that make them inconsistent. Gardiner is better defensively in transition, Faulk is better along the boards and down low.

I agree I don't see any way Faulk Lands Nylander, I do think Kapanen is in that deal though and that kind of sucks because that's a very fast, very good player but you have to give to get.

Leaf fans will hate it but I don't actually think Reilly Gardiner Faulk Dermott Zaitsev and Hainsey is a bad D core, who knows maybe Faulk-Hainsey would work here