The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I do think Saad will rebound, I’m not so sure about Toews.

I’m bummed to see Kempny go. He’s a bottom 4 defenseman, but depending on his performance, you can move him up or down. That’s a great thing when you have a bunch of young guys coming into your d corps. He could’ve been a great presence here.

Regardless, he’s gone, and now we have Keith, Seabrook and Murphy as our mentors. Not a bad group of leaders, but you’d want more performance from that group to be an example. We need a solid D man to guide all of our young guys who will lead by performance. We have enough experience/voice in the locker room

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Canes starting to purge themselves of underwhelming ex-Hawks?



Kruger hasn't been that good for a few years now IMO and I don't see him improving with Yotes

As for Martinook he is nothing special and just as meh

Yotes essentially upgraded pick this year from 4th to 3rd to take on Kruger's salary

 

[CallMeShaft]

It's a shame that Kruger has had so much struggles lately. He was a warrior for most of the seasons he was with us and he should've been one for Carolina too. It's a shame people couldn't stop whacking the hell out of his hands to the point where he wasn't even taking faceoffs.

At least he gets to hang out with Hammer again. I'm sure he'll enjoy that part of the trade.

 

[AmericanDream]

who the f*** is making deals in Carolina?? Waddell??? lol

no way Dudley could be involved already...

also, I doubt Arizona takes on Hossa's contract now...

 

[BK]

who the **** is making deals in Carolina?? Waddell??? lol

no way Dudley could be involved already...

also, I doubt Arizona takes on Hossa's contract now...

Meh AZ is likely to still take it as Kruger's deal only lasts next season and they are no where close to being good. If that is the plan.

Personally I think both organizations are just cheap and it is a waste.

 

[ClydeLee]

You gotta realize cap dumb teams don't stay it, it changes around. Arizona spent in guys last year with actual pay and Domi is due money. They're not need a big cash savings for cap floor team. Just like Florida, Toronto, or new Jersey are no longer in that mold.

A team that could be a new cap dump market is Ottawa or Vancouver too.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

I think Martinook could be a really nice depth scorer.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Pokka goes back to Europe

Signed to play in KHL

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

There is some myth on here that Tallon somehow was this genius that built the Hawks through the draft. Bowman has been a much better scout and talent evaluator than Tallon. 1st round picks are the most important picks for a team. This is Tallon's record:
2004(3) Cam Barker
2005(7) Jack Skille
2006(3) Jonathan Toews
2007(1) Patrick Kane
2008(11) Kyle Beach
2009(29) Dylan Olsen
Compare that to Bowman
2010(25) Kevin Hayes
2011(18) Mark McNeill
2012(18) Teuvo Teravainen
2013(30) Ryan Hartman
2014(20) Nick Schmaltz
2015/16 No 1st(traded for Timonen/Ladd)
2017(29) Henri Jokiharju

Outside of 19/88 Tallon was a massive failure in the first round, and despite Bowman losing Hayes, Teravainen and Hartman, they are at the very least valuable pieces to their current team. Schmaltz looks like a solid top 6 player and the jury is still out on Jokiharju, but early returns are positive.
If you look at this objectively, Bowman has been the far superior draftnik, despite having picked no higher than 18 until now, and Tallon completely blew 3 top 11 picks. The only top pick Bowman completely whiffed on was McNeill.

 

[ChiHawks10]

There is some myth on here that Tallon somehow was this genius that built the Hawks through the draft. Bowman has been a much better scout and talent evaluator than Tallon. 1st round picks are the most important picks for a team. This is Tallon's record:
2004(3) Cam Barker
2005(7) Jack Skille
2006(3) Jonathan Toews
2007(1) Patrick Kane
2008(11) Kyle Beach
2009(29) Dylan Olsen
Compare that to Bowman
2010(25) Kevin Hayes
2011(18) Mark McNeill
2012(18) Teuvo Teravainen
2013(30) Ryan Hartman
2014(20) Nick Schmaltz
2015/16 No 1st(traded for Timonen/Ladd)
2017(29) Henri Jokiharju

Outside of 19/88 Tallon was a massive failure in the first round, and despite Bowman losing Hayes, Teravainen and Hartman, they are at the very least valuable pieces to their current team. Schmaltz looks like a solid top 6 player and the jury is still out on Jokiharju, but early returns are positive.
If you look at this objectively, Bowman has been the far superior draftnik, despite having picked no higher than 18 until now, and Tallon completely blew 3 top 11 picks. The only top pick Bowman completely whiffed on was McNeill.

Don't forget that Stan was Assistant GM at this time, so he had a lot to do with these, also.

 

[Blue Liner]

Don't forget that Stan was Assistant GM at this time, so he had a lot to do with these, also.

I'd like to know how much he was involved in actual hockey operations/scouting/draft decisions as Assistant GM. Not denying he was involved, but I'd love to know to what extent he had any influence in scouting and drafting decisions. It varies so much from club to club the duties an Assistant GM carries. Generally, they're the GM of the AHL club (though currently that's Mark Bernard and he's not Assistant GM) so there is some decision-making and influence as far as current prospects in the organization but I wonder how much amateur stuff Bowman had a hand in back then. It would be interesting to know.

 

[ChiHawks10]

I'd like to know how much he was involved in actual hockey operations/scouting/draft decisions as Assistant GM. Not denying he was involved, but I'd love to know to what extent he had any influence in scouting and drafting decisions. It varies so much from club to club the duties an Assistant GM carries. Generally, they're the GM of the AHL club (though currently that's Mark Bernard and he's not Assistant GM) so there is some decision-making and influence as far as current prospects in the organization but I wonder how much amateur stuff Bowman had a hand in back then. It would be interesting to know.

Honestly, I have to imagine he was heavily involved with the scouting side of things. He was with the organization for like 6 years prior to even becoming the Assistant GM. In 2001 he was hired as special assistant to the GM, and did that for four seasons. Then the next two, he was director of hockey operations. Then he was promoted to Assistant GM 2007-2009. Then in 2009 he was made the GM in July. I have to believe holding those titles previously, he had a huge say in scouting/drafting. Just speculation, obviously, but to me, there's good reason to speculate that he was involved quite a bit with those aspects of the organization.

 

[ClydeLee]

Bowman was talked about as the business guy, since that was his degree background.

When Tallon was GM the head scout was still that guy Dumas that was with the hawks scouts forever. I don't see Stan as a guy coming from the business side butting in too much. But when Tallon was AGM he would have made sense and it's been claimed he had legit draft input.

I know Kelley was with the scout staff then and had been a European scout. I wonder if he had some specific input in the legit only 2 other successes Tallons team got drafting after T&K. Hjammer and Kruger.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

These are the major trade history of Bowman and Tallon when GM of the Hawks: I can't tell who has a better record, because Bowman made many more major trades than Tallon did with the Hawks.

Tallon major trades:
12/5/05-Sharp/Meloche for Ellison
7/9/06-Havlat/Smolinski for trash
8/4/06-Handzus for Calder
2/3/07-Versteeg for Bochenski
2/26/08 Ladd for Ruutu


Bowman major Trades:
2/12/10-Barker for Johnsson/Leddy
6/24/10-Byfuglien+trash for 1st, 2nd, trash
7/1/10-Ladd for 2nd+trash
2/9/11-Frolik+trash for Skille+Trash
2/27/12-Oduya for 2nd/3rd
3/4/14-Rundblad(also trash)+trash for 2nd
10/4/14-trash for Leddy
2/28/15-Vermette for 1st+trash
6/30/15-Saad+trash for Anisimov/Dano(probably trash)+more trash
7/10/15-Sharp/Johns for Daley/Garbutt
2/25/16-Ladd+trash for Dano+1st
6/15/16-2nd/3rd for Teravainen/Bickell
6/24/16-2 2nds for Shaw(one became DeBrincat)
6/23/17-Murphy for Hjalmarsson
6/23/17-Saad/Forsberg/5th for Panarin/Motte/6th
2/26/18-Ejdsell/1st/4th for Hartman/5th

 

[Hawkaholic]

That's not fair to Bowman, because he had to shed a lot of the cap hell that Tallon put him in. You don't really win salary dump trades. It's easier to trade when you are a bottom dwelling team that doesn't have to worry about the cap.

 

[BK]

These are the major trade history of Bowman and Tallon when GM of the Hawks: I can't tell who has a better record, because Bowman made many more major trades than Tallon did with the Hawks.

Tallon major trades:
12/5/05-Sharp/Meloche for Ellison
7/9/06-Havlat/Smolinski for trash
8/4/06-Handzus for Calder
2/3/07-Versteeg for Bochenski
2/26/08 Ladd for Ruutu


Bowman major Trades:
2/12/10-Barker for Johnsson/Leddy: Win
6/24/10-Byfuglien+trash for 1st, 2nd, trash: Tallon cap dump, N/A or Tie
7/1/10-Ladd for 2nd+trash: Tallon cap dump, N/A or Tie
2/9/11-Frolik+trash for Skille+Trash: Win
2/27/12-Oduya for 2nd/3rd: Win
3/4/14-Rundblad(also trash)+trash for 2nd: Bad Loss
10/4/14-trash for Leddy: Short-term win Long-term loss; Cup = win overall
2/28/15-Vermette for 1st+trash: Win
6/30/15-Saad+trash for Anisimov/Dano(probably trash)+more trash: See below
7/10/15-Sharp/Johns for Daley/Garbutt: Loss
2/25/16-Ladd+trash for Dano+1st: Didn't win cup so a loss
6/15/16-2nd/3rd for Teravainen/Bickell: Bickell MS but meh call it a loss
6/24/16-2 2nds for Shaw(one became DeBrincat): Win
6/23/17-Murphy for Hjalmarsson: Win
6/23/17-Saad/Forsberg/5th for Panarin/Motte/6th: Loss after season 1. See below
2/26/18-Ejdsell/1st/4th for Hartman/5th: Win so far

Trash this, trash that. Bias a bit?

Record: 9-6-2

You forgot MTL trade with PD for Wiese/TF and Car deal for Darling and 3rd. 1 win 1 loss.

AP for Saad/AA/Forsberg: AP having a huge season overall makes the net-net a loss but AP and AA were really good the year before. I mark it as a loss but if Saad recovers this can change.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Trash this, trash that. Bias a bit?

Record: 9-6-2

You forgot MTL trade with PD for Wiese/TF and Car deal for Darling and 3rd. 1 win 1 loss.

AP for Saad/AA/Forsberg: AP having a huge season overall makes the net-net a loss but AP and AA were really good the year before. I mark it as a loss but if Saad recovers this can change.

I just didn't feel like typing out all of the names of guys who were "never was" players. So I replaced those guys with the word trash. Yeah, I did forget MTL trade with Wiese and Fleischmann.
Also omitted Panik/Duclair because it is too early on that one and I didn't consider it a major move because it didn't involve key players.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

That's not fair to Bowman, because he had to shed a lot of the cap hell that Tallon put him in. You don't really win salary dump trades. It's easier to trade when you are a bottom dwelling team that doesn't have to worry about the cap.

Not disagreeing with you. When you take that into account, it looks better.

 

[BK]

I just didn't feel like typing out all of the names of guys who were "never was" players. So I replaced those guys with the word trash. Yeah, I did forget MTL trade with Wiese and Fleischmann.
Also omitted Panik/Duclair because it is too early on that one and I didn't consider it a major move because it didn't involve key players.

Makes more sense now.

 

[AmericanDream]

I would be interested if someone matches Tallon's trades in Florida up with what Bowman did here during the same time period. different situations no doubt, but curious to see how well Tallon did with trades during his time in Florida.

 

[Blackhawks]

I would be interested if someone matches Tallon's trades in Florida up with what Bowman did here during the same time period. different situations no doubt, but curious to see how well Tallon did with trades during his time in Florida.

Who really cares though, this is not Stan vs Tallon, this is Stan vs the league from 2015 onwards, he has run the team into the ground with no sign of recovery any time soon. He has made many devastating signings and trades that have destroyed this team. Stan was good until 2015 then he just lost the vision and I really don’t see this team becoming a contender any time soon. The questions that everyone should be asking is, what could Stan have done differently to keep the team in contention? Instead we have people making excuses and saying no way it couldn’t have been done as with success comes eventual downfall. With that statement comes the question is there a GM out there that could have kept this team in contending status? I tend to this yes as you don’t run the team into the ground with on each moves but with a series of bad moves. I am not being negative here as many will accuse me of it now, this is just reality as many fans see it but it’s taboo to discuss here and thus you don’t see this point of view ever.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Who really cares though, this is not Stan vs Tallon, this is Stan vs the league from 2015 onwards, he has run the team into the ground with no sign of recovery any time soon. He has made many devastating signings and trades that have destroyed this team. Stan was good until 2015 then he just lost the vision and I really don’t see this team becoming a contender any time soon. The questions that everyone should be asking is, what could Stan have done differently to keep the team in contention? Instead we have people making excuses and saying no way it couldn’t have been done as with success comes eventual downfall. With that statement comes the question is there a GM out there that could have kept this team in contending status? I tend to this yes as you don’t run the team into the ground with on each moves but with a series of bad moves. I am not being negative here as many will accuse me of it now, this is just reality as many fans see it but it’s taboo to discuss here and thus you don’t see this point of view ever.

The only three things he could have realistically done would have been to not re-sign Seabrook after 2015 and instead trade him, Trade Hjalmarsson that offseason as well, and try to restock on defense.

IMO they could have still acquired AA. It would still really hurt on the back end, they probably wouldn't have made the playoffs in 2016 and 2017 but the forward depth would probably be incredible and young defensemen would have arrived via trade and the draft. Huge bonus is that the Hawks have both Saad and Panarin. Another option would have been to try to keep TT and unload one of the 2nds they got for Shaw in order to launch Bickell. (preferably the not DeBrincat one)
I think they could have received a crap ton for 4 and 7 in the summer 2015 offseason.

 

[AmericanDream]

Who really cares though, this is not Stan vs Tallon, this is Stan vs the league from 2015 onwards, he has run the team into the ground with no sign of recovery any time soon. He has made many devastating signings and trades that have destroyed this team. Stan was good until 2015 then he just lost the vision and I really don’t see this team becoming a contender any time soon. The questions that everyone should be asking is, what could Stan have done differently to keep the team in contention? Instead we have people making excuses and saying no way it couldn’t have been done as with success comes eventual downfall. With that statement comes the question is there a GM out there that could have kept this team in contending status? I tend to this yes as you don’t run the team into the ground with on each moves but with a series of bad moves. I am not being negative here as many will accuse me of it now, this is just reality as many fans see it but it’s taboo to discuss here and thus you don’t see this point of view ever.

I f***ing care, which is why I posted it.

It isn't about Stan vs Tallon, just curious as I said to see his breakdown over the years on trades as God knows the shine wears off on most of the GMs once you match record to record..

 

[ChiHawks10]

It's so predictable.

 

[AmericanDream]

It's so predictable.

I don't even know why I bother responding at this point anymore...