The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[ClydeLee]

So off the top of my head its Wingles, Kempny, Hartman, and Buff as ex Hawks still in it. Though I know there's guys on rosters not playing like Dano on the jets and Bolig is a preds black ace

 

[CallMeShaft]

Just smells the same as 2017 to me.

Is your nose broken? Because these situations don't smell anything alike.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I saw plenty of Panarin in this series and results are mixed bag

Great in early part of series and MIA in 2nd half

Game 4 = 1 shot in 20:56 of TOI
Game 5 = 4 shots in 27:11 of TOI
Game 6 = 2 shots in 25:39 of TOI

Cant defend the ghost performance while at same time trashing Kane in 2016 and 2017 playoffs as some who are praising Panarin did

So Panarin = The Caps key'd on him and shut him down , He had no help
But Kane in 2016 and 2017 on HF Hawks = What a bum , no show , etc , etc

Reality is Panarin vanished and was nonfactor in most important games of season

 

[BK]

I saw plenty of Panarin in this series and results are mixed bag

Great in early part of series and MIA in 2nd half

Game 4 = 1 shot in 20:56 of TOI
Game 5 = 4 shots in 27:11 of TOI
Game 6 = 2 shots in 25:39 of TOI

Cant defend the ghost performance while at same time trashing Kane in 2016 and 2017 playoffs as some who are praising Panarin did

So Panarin = The Caps key'd on him and shut him down , He had no help
But Kane in 2016 and 2017 on HF Hawks = What a bum , no show , etc , etc

Reality is Panarin vanished and was nonfactor in most important games of season

Did you even watch the series?

 

[Blue Liner]

I saw plenty of Panarin in this series and results are mixed bag

Great in early part of series and MIA in 2nd half

Game 4 = 1 shot in 20:56 of TOI
Game 5 = 4 shots in 27:11 of TOI
Game 6 = 2 shots in 25:39 of TOI

Cant defend the ghost performance while at same time trashing Kane in 2016 and 2017 playoffs as some who are praising Panarin did

So Panarin = The Caps key'd on him and shut him down , He had no help
But Kane in 2016 and 2017 on HF Hawks = What a bum , no show , etc , etc

Reality is Panarin vanished and was nonfactor in most important games of season

This is completely arbitrary. If he doesn't play well in Games 1-3 they don't even make it to Games 5 and 6. "More important" just suits your narrative. Not to mention, he still played well in Games 4-6 but it's pointless to go down that road, or any, when you get hellbent on a point.

 

[Fortyfives]

I know it’s been discussed to death the last few pages, but I just don’t understand how this team couldn’t utilize Kempny. It’s the same with Daley. This team used to take table scraps from other teams and turn them into filet mignon. Now it’s the opposite and it’s contributing to its downfall.

 

[Fortyfives]

Also if I am Stan I do what I think is right for the team and hope the coach figures it out. If he doesn’t so be it, but if he gets fired and he looking for other jobs those moves are at least explainable with the direction of the league.

 

[ClydeLee]

I know it’s been discussed to death the last few pages, but I just don’t understand how this team couldn’t utilize Kempny. It’s the same with Daley. This team used to take table scraps from other teams and turn them into filet mignon. Now it’s the opposite and it’s contributing to its downfall.

Like Panik? The only defenseman you could even make a case for this having happened is with Oduya..

But even that isn't a big gap of find, he was a 3/4th Defensive Pk a lot D on bad teams to a 4 doing that on a great tean

 

[Robsker]

Well... Kempny sure seems to be a capable say #4 D (on a decent D). We only have really, one guy on the roster (Duncs) that is substantially better than Kempny. Maybe Murphy is better --- probably by a stitch. Maybe Rutta is comparable --- at best. So...

yes, it is a problem that a team with one of the weakest bluelines in the entire NHL --- the Hawks --- let go of (actually ran out of town) a player who was probably our 3rd best D man 9or, at least tied for 3rd best).

Going in to next season, unless new guys come in (and they BETTER) --- Kempny will be really missed. Again, kempny is not great --- a solid #4 or a very, very good #5 --- but on this Hawks team --- he was among the best overall. Better than Osterle, same basically as Rutta, better than where Forsling is at present (though Forsling is young and may get there, at least), better than the version of Seabs we now have (not by much, but by a little --- and Kempny has years left in him where Seabs does not), better than the rest we have....

Bad move.

 

[Panzerspitze]

So off the top of my head its Wingles, Kempny, Hartman, and Buff as ex Hawks still in it. Though I know there's guys on rosters not playing like Dano on the jets and Bolig is a preds black ace

I think I saw "J. Scott" on a roster as a scratch.

 

[BobbyJet]

Is your nose broken? Because these situations don't smell anything alike.

Let me see:
- both in 2017 and 2018, Panarin's team is defeated in first round
- AP gets his points in a losing cause but is not a factor in either year's outcomes, but does get some points in a losing cause (both times) so all is well according to some. Let's ignore that this time around, 4 of his 5 assists came on the PP. Let's also ignore his team worst -4 rating at even strength.
- like I said I didn't see much of the series but the similarities are present. Like last season some folks will point out his point totals as being somehow a positive. However, it's a team game and his team lost again.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Let me see:
- both in 2017 and 2018, Panarin's team is defeated in first round
- AP gets his points in a losing cause but is not a factor in either year's outcomes, but does get some points in a losing cause (both times) so all is well according to some. Let's ignore that this time around, 4 of his 5 assists came on the PP. Let's also ignore his team worst -4 rating at even strength.
- like I said I didn't see much of the series but the similarities are present. Like last season some folks will point out his point totals as being somehow a positive. However, it's a team game and his team lost again.

An offensive winger is there to put up points because that is how he helps his team win. Of course his point totals are a positive. Its not like he was potting goals in garbage time in runaway victories. Every game he scored in was decided by one goal.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

I saw plenty of Panarin in this series and results are mixed bag

Great in early part of series and MIA in 2nd half

Game 4 = 1 shot in 20:56 of TOI
Game 5 = 4 shots in 27:11 of TOI
Game 6 = 2 shots in 25:39 of TOI

Cant defend the ghost performance while at same time trashing Kane in 2016 and 2017 playoffs as some who are praising Panarin did

So Panarin = The Caps key'd on him and shut him down , He had no help
But Kane in 2016 and 2017 on HF Hawks = What a bum , no show , etc , etc

Reality is Panarin vanished and was nonfactor in most important games of season

Kane played well in 2016. Did anyone actually call him a no show or a bum for that performance? I think you are making that up.

 

[geoo9]

I saw plenty of Panarin in this series and results are mixed bag

Great in early part of series and MIA in 2nd half

Game 4 = 1 shot in 20:56 of TOI
Game 5 = 4 shots in 27:11 of TOI
Game 6 = 2 shots in 25:39 of TOI

Cant defend the ghost performance while at same time trashing Kane in 2016 and 2017 playoffs as some who are praising Panarin did

So Panarin = The Caps key'd on him and shut him down , He had no help
But Kane in 2016 and 2017 on HF Hawks = What a bum , no show , etc , etc

Reality is Panarin vanished and was nonfactor in most important games of season

he had knee injury last games

 

[Pez68]

Let me see:
- both in 2017 and 2018, Panarin's team is defeated in first round
- AP gets his points in a losing cause but is not a factor in either year's outcomes, but does get some points in a losing cause (both times) so all is well according to some. Let's ignore that this time around, 4 of his 5 assists came on the PP. Let's also ignore his team worst -4 rating at even strength.
- like I said I didn't see much of the series but the similarities are present. Like last season some folks will point out his point totals as being somehow a positive. However, it's a team game and his team lost again.

Posting this without having watched the series is ignorant and uninformed. You are out to lunch here.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Well... Kempny sure seems to be a capable say #4 D (on a decent D). We only have really, one guy on the roster (Duncs) that is substantially better than Kempny. Maybe Murphy is better --- probably by a stitch. Maybe Rutta is comparable --- at best. So...

yes, it is a problem that a team with one of the weakest bluelines in the entire NHL --- the Hawks --- let go of (actually ran out of town) a player who was probably our 3rd best D man 9or, at least tied for 3rd best).

Going in to next season, unless new guys come in (and they BETTER) --- Kempny will be really missed. Again, kempny is not great --- a solid #4 or a very, very good #5 --- but on this Hawks team --- he was among the best overall. Better than Osterle, same basically as Rutta, better than where Forsling is at present (though Forsling is young and may get there, at least), better than the version of Seabs we now have (not by much, but by a little --- and Kempny has years left in him where Seabs does not), better than the rest we have....

Bad move.

Kempny is a capable #4 by being a #5 in Washington?

Kempny is a dime a dozen player at best who when playing well is a bottom pairing defender and who when struggling looks like he doesn't belong in NHL

 

[Blue Liner]

Let me see:
- both in 2017 and 2018, Panarin's team is defeated in first round
- AP gets his points in a losing cause but is not a factor in either year's outcomes, but does get some points in a losing cause (both times) so all is well according to some. Let's ignore that this time around, 4 of his 5 assists came on the PP. Let's also ignore his team worst -4 rating at even strength.
- like I said I didn't see much of the series but the similarities are present. Like last season some folks will point out his point totals as being somehow a positive. However, it's a team game and his team lost again.

That would definitely explain this post then.

 

[BK]

Kempny is a capable #4 by being a #5 in Washington?

Kempny is a dime a dozen player at best who when playing well is a bottom pairing defender and who when struggling looks like he doesn't belong in NHL

That is not the case though. ES he is their #4 Dman. BO is a PK specialist of for them so when they have more penalties his TOI goes up. If you are going to make claims at least look at the facts. Kempny averages 2 minutes more per game ES than BO.

 

[LordKOTL]

Yeah, I mean, nothing is changing at this point. We already know our players usually play the same or better after they leave here. We already know Q’s system isn’t working. We already know although our young talent is pretty strong, overall, the roster lacks talent. We already know Q and Stan are coming back.

So we’re just waiting for Stan to make miracles happen in the offseason and Q to change his system to best utilize the talent we do have.

Stan needs to untether himself from Q, which will not be easy to do at this point. The Crawford injury probably made Stan look worse than Q. I don’t think it should have, but it seems like it did. So he has to have a phenomenal offseason.

As an aside--as much as losing Crawford sucked hard I think the side effect of it did some good in the grand scheme of things--It exposed the team for what it actually was--top-to-toe. This also includes both Stan and Q. Before Crawford went down the 'hawks were 19th in the league: 34GP, 17-12-5 with 39 points, 102/89 for GF/GA. For the games afterward vs the rest of the league in that same timeframe was good for 29th: 48GP, 16-27-5 with 37 points, and 126/165 for GF/GA.

While it's patently obvious Crawford masked enough issues with the 'hawks to qualify it as a subscription, It proved that Q and Stan both had nothing to counteract that. Stan had no plan B in place: There was no magical D-man, magical defensive FWD the ilk of Hossa, no offensive player waiting in the wings that could increase the offensive output, and most importantly no 2B goaltender like he has in 2015 with Raanta/Darling. Glass/Berube certainly weren't and were mostly AHL fodder pressed into service. Further, Q could have done the coaching thing, managed some egos and tried to get whatever 2nd gear the core had engaged...yet didn't get it engaged, nor did he really do anything to give the younger players a chance to show what they got when the core was repeatedly showing they had nothing to give.

I think if Crawford wouldn't have gone down, likely his numbers normalize like Vasilevskiy's did but I feel that the skater issues, coaching issues, and GMing issues wouldn't have been out there in front. Now, I don't think there was anywhere near a "viable replacement" for Crawford to be had--just like no viable replacement for Price for the Habs 2016 season. I also don't feel like much could have been done during the season, but after all is said and done the exposure of the skaters for what they are is something in the forefront and I don't think it would have been had the 'hawks had Crawford all year.

 

[Pez68]

That is not the case though. ES he is their #4 Dman. BO is a PK specialist of for them so when they have more penalties his TOI goes up. If you are going to make claims at least look at the facts. Kempny averages 2 minutes more per game ES than BO.

And that's with the injury in game 1, where he played like 5 minutes total.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Kempny has played well enough to be their #4/5, he also doesn't have any Dman behind him worth a damn in WSH, just like here.

It also helps that he has a damn good Dman to play with, which he never had here in Chicago.

 

[BobbyJet]

Posting this without having watched the series is ignorant and uninformed. You are out to lunch here.

That would definitely explain this post then.

Perhaps so but in my mind the jury is still out on the Saad vs Panarin debate.

I would be very interested to hear Tort's evaluation of each player's value to his team when needed the most.

 

[Blue Liner]

Perhaps so but in my mind the jury is still out on the Saad vs Panarin debate.

I would be very interested to hear Tort's evaluation of each player's value to his team when needed the most.

I don't think anyone was arguing this. I know I wasn't, at least.

 

[Pez68]

Perhaps so but in my mind the jury is still out on the Saad vs Panarin debate.

I would be very interested to hear Tort's evaluation of each player's value to his team when needed the most.

Saad was in his dog house much, much, much more than Panarin... I do believe he was a healthy scratch, and several games was seeing 4th line minutes... Which, if he was as f***ing lazy and disinterested as he looked most of this season...makes a lot of sense.

Torts did nothing but show complete trust in Panarin in all situations this season.

The only way the Hawks even BREAK EVEN on this trade, is if Saad can bounce back and be a 50+ point winger.

 

[ClydeLee]

What if Panarin up and walks from Cbj in ufa next year... not much a win then unless next playoffs they get that coveted franchise 3rd win in a series.