The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[ClydeLee]

Skille has finally took his speed overseas to the khl

 

[Robsker]

Im interested to see how Darling does.

I think he'll come out of the gates white hot in Carolina, but ultimately a full starters workload will catch up to him my the 2nd half of the season. He still has yet to play more than 40 games a season in any league since 2008.

That said, he's going to be playing behind a great defense, so maybe his actual physical workload per game will be low enough that his stamina (physical and mental) holds out.

Also of note, Carolina has some excellent overall D-men. Much better, depth-wise, than the Hawks. So, Darling will have some really good guys helping him on the back end. Crow will likely be besieged with crazy amounts of shots this season. I'd guess that Crow will face many more scoring chances on the season than will Darls. So... if Darls ends up with better stats than Crow this season, the stats need to be taken in context.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Also of note, Carolina has some excellent overall D-men. Much better, depth-wise, than the Hawks. So, Darling will have some really good guys helping him on the back end. Crow will likely be besieged with crazy amounts of shots this season. I'd guess that Crow will face many more scoring chances on the season than will Darls. So... if Darls ends up with better stats than Crow this season, the stats need to be taken in context.

Things taken in context? On HF?

Wishful thinking.

 

[Robsker]

Things taken in context? On HF?

Wishful thinking.

Not out of context at all --- it is an extension of the immediate context (as I stated, "in addition") and earlier people intimated that shipping Crow rather than Darls was the better move --- suggesting a comparison. And... the immediate post i responded to had the D at Carolina defined as excellent --- so I extended from that w/ the comparison between what the stats between Crow and Darls might look like this year. Darls has an easier context and any comparison should acknowledge that.

 

[BobbyJet]

Also of note, Carolina has some excellent overall D-men. Much better, depth-wise, than the Hawks. So, Darling will have some really good guys helping him on the back end. Crow will likely be besieged with crazy amounts of shots this season. I'd guess that Crow will face many more scoring chances on the season than will Darls. So... if Darls ends up with better stats than Crow this season, the stats need to be taken in context.

RIGHT.

 

[Robsker]

RIGHT.

Bobby:

Do you think the Hawks top 6 D-men are as good as (or better) than those in Carolina?

Do you think Carolina will leave up as many (or more) scoring chances than the Hawks?

Do you think that Crow will face an easier task (or a comparable task) relative to Darls?

I am curious. Carolina's D is emerging and very talented... the Hawks D is largely unknown --- at least how good Fosling, Murphy, or Rutta will be --- and even if Seabs is declining (or not) are all open questions remaining to be seen.

maybe I under-estimate the quality of the Hawks D-core. On paper, Carolina is clearly superior (overall) --- or do you disagree?

 

[BobbyJet]

On paper the Canes defense looks to be pretty good and Hawks' defense ... well, let's just say that its effectiveness is difficult to predict. But team defense and the team's defensive system employed is what really counts and I think Hawk's may have the edge via coaching (though again there are a lot of unknowns). What is laughable however is that predictably Crawford proponents will begin making excuses before either goaltender has played a single minute with their new clubs.

 

[Robsker]

On paper the Canes defense looks to be pretty good and Hawks' defense ... well, let's just say that its effectiveness is difficult to predict. But team defense and the team's defensive system employed is what really counts and I think Hawk's may have the edge via coaching (though again there are a lot of unknowns). What is laughable however is that predictably Crawford proponents will begin making excuses before either goaltender has played a single minute with their new clubs.

I see where you are coming from. Yeah...I actually like both Crow and Darls and think both guys are good. Were I in charge I would have preferred moving Crow and getting the $ and keeping Darls --- perhaps that too is what the Hawks preferred but could not pull off a deal --- who knows.

Now what i describe is no excuse for anyone. It is just reality --- if one is to compare the two at seasons end, it is simply true (or, at least appears true now, on paper) that Darls will have an easier context in which to play than Crow.

 

[BobbyJet]

I see where you are coming from. Yeah...I actually like both Crow and Darls and think both guys are good. Were I in charge I would have preferred moving Crow and getting the $ and keeping Darls --- perhaps that too is what the Hawks preferred but could not pull off a deal --- who knows.

Now what i describe is no excuse for anyone. It is just reality --- if one is to compare the two at seasons end, it is simply true (or, at least appears true now, on paper) that Darls will have an easier context in which to play than Crow.

You may be right but I repeat what I said in April - I question if SB even considered moving Crawford at all, otherwise why did he move Darling literally the moment the season ended, when he had until July to see if he could find a taker for Crawford.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

There's a reason why Darling, a backup (admittedly a very reliable one), got a third rounder while a starter like Bishop (potential future issues notwithstanding) only got a fourth rounder in return. Had we waited, it might very well have cost us a round or two if we let the Bishop move happen first. Struck while the iron was hot and the demand for a goalie was at its highest. And got him out of the conference to boot, so it wouldn't come back to bite us aside from maybe two games a year.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Darling is good but at 4.15M, I don't know that he was the answer. If things don't work out this year, you can trade Crawford and roll with Forsberg/Berube next year for a combined 1.45M. I love Crow, always have, always will, but if things aren't working out for the team, just pull the trigger and move him. 4.55M in cap space, not to mention Panarin's bonus money. We could have 8M in extra money to play with. Crawford should be the last goalie to make 4M+ of the Toews/Kane era.

 

[BK]

You may be right but I repeat what I said in April - I question if SB even considered moving Crawford at all, otherwise why did he move Darling literally the moment the season ended, when he had until July to see if he could find a taker for Crawford.

I personally think Stan talked to Crow's agent and was told he would not waive. I do think Stan could have tried to convince him but the risk vs reward of doing that makes it not worth it. Stan then moved to option B which was getting the best pick possible for Darling and acquiring AF in the Saad/AP deal. If AF turns out to be a good starter then you can move on from Crow when his deal is done with a starter who is just entering his prime.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Not out of context at all --- it is an extension of the immediate context (as I stated, "in addition") and earlier people intimated that shipping Crow rather than Darls was the better move --- suggesting a comparison. And... the immediate post i responded to had the D at Carolina defined as excellent --- so I extended from that w/ the comparison between what the stats between Crow and Darls might look like this year. Darls has an easier context and any comparison should acknowledge that.

I was stating that the vast majority of people on here don't put anything in context... I even said it was wishful thinking for you to think that people will put anything in context.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Darling is good but at 4.15M, I don't know that he was the answer. If things don't work out this year, you can trade Crawford and roll with Forsberg/Berube next year for a combined 1.45M. I love Crow, always have, always will, but if things aren't working out for the team, just pull the trigger and move him. 4.55M in cap space, not to mention Panarin's bonus money. We could have 8M in extra money to play with. Crawford should be the last goalie to make 4M+ of the Toews/Kane era.

Eh... a couple major problems with that. First, Crow has been insanely reliable for us since he's worn the Indian Head other than occasional fluctuations that happens to all goalies (especially this past year, where he was having a career year before the appendicitis). The idea of moving from a known and reliable quantity at a time when we probably have more question marks on our blue line than at any point in recent memory seems like a recipe for disaster. And that's especially the case as Forsberg and Berube are massively unknown quantities for us. That'd be a Canuck level move to go from reliable starters and backups to giving the franchise over to just potential nobodies.

Second, regarding the salaries, for next season Crow is basically what you'd expect the starter for a contender to make (he will be tied with Schneider as the 7th highest paid goalie in the league, and four more goalies are making within a mere quarter million less than Crow) while Darling is near the bottom as starters at the 23rd highest paid goalie.

http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/cap-hit/goaltender/

The rate for starters is established, so if you expect to stay below $4 million going forward past Crow, you're essentially stating you want a revolving door of goalies coming in and out every couple of years or settling on fairly low quality guys. Neither are good for our chances if you ask me.

As for the cap savings, those would be temporary at best and likely not in their full amount as well. It is very difficult to move a goalie making a decent amount of money with term, as flat out the demand isn't very high. Contenders either usually have a guy already or are stretched cap-wise as well, and non-contenders wouldn't be interesting in paying for a goalie when they have holes all over the place already. That leaves a limited number of teams somewhere in the middle that believe a reliable starter could put them over the edge, and at that point they have a good bargaining position as they know you're doing it for a cap dump as well. Trading Crow,or any other starting goalie, would almost assuredly involve eating some of that salary or trading a player, prospect, or a pick in the process as well.

It's far easier and more reliable to stick with the guy you know and can trust and trade the backup than vice versa.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I personally think Stan talked to Crow's agent and was told he would not waive. I do think Stan could have tried to convince him but the risk vs reward of doing that makes it not worth it.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we went for an extreme makeover yet kept Crow, doesn't make sense. There seems like something is missing. And there will be much better options to spend money on next year. Go after Tavares. If that doesn't work out, the following year you have Karlsson, Doughty and others due to hit UFA. Hell, he may even want to think of targeting some RFAs.

NFS, the more problems we have, the more I want to move Crow. There's no point in becoming the Wings and just being happy to make the playoffs. We're at the point where we need to be taking big risks and they either pay off big or blow up in our face and we get a high draft pick. Everything Stan is doing points to this as the strategy as well. I think if this team has a bad year, he's gonna do some more demolition next offseason. If they look promising and clearly on the way back up, then yeah, I think he'll hold onto Crow and make some smaller moves with Panarin's bonus money.

 

[BobbyJet]

Darling is good but at 4.15M, I don't know that he was the answer. If things don't work out this year, you can trade Crawford and roll with Forsberg/Berube next year for a combined 1.45M. I love Crow, always have, always will, but if things aren't working out for the team, just pull the trigger and move him. 4.55M in cap space, not to mention Panarin's bonus money. We could have 8M in extra money to play with. Crawford should be the last goalie to make 4M+ of the Toews/Kane era.

That's an interesting perspective, especially if the cap number stays flat.... but I think Crawford may be a lifer in Chicago.

 

[Robsker]

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we went for an extreme makeover yet kept Crow, doesn't make sense. There seems like something is missing. And there will be much better options to spend money on next year. Go after Tavares. If that doesn't work out, the following year you have Karlsson, Doughty and others due to hit UFA. Hell, he may even want to think of targeting some RFAs.

Steel:

What you say makes a great deal of sense to me.

 

[BK]

That's an interesting perspective, especially if the cap number stays flat.... but I think Crawford may be a lifer in Chicago.

Maybe but having a top 10 goalie for the next 3 seasons is not a bad thing. If he was on a Seabrook length deal it would be an issue. 35 is near the age where goalies start to fall off.

For random reference. 2020 NHL Free Agents.

 

[CallMeShaft]

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Pirri isn't an NHL talent

 

[CallMeShaft]

Pirri isn't an NHL talent

But #FreePirri

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Hammer becomes an alternate captain on the far southwest side.

 

[SAADfather]

Not surprised.

 

[ClydeLee]

Well Clendening also made the yotes roster but expected to be a rotating playing.

 

[Teemu]

Pirri on waivers. Presumably signed be Vegas and intended for the Wolves