The Decline of Vladimir Krutov

[jarek]

As far as I know,Jarek isnt a defender since he was the one who originally criticized Krutov.

I do not defend Krutov, but it has little to do with steroids.

 

[Sturminator]

How far are we going to take this reliance on domestic regular season statistics? Will this board soon find Petrov to be better than Mikhailov or Kharlamov?

Petrov probably was better as a scorer than he is generally credited to have been, possibly a lot better - a good deal closer to his linemates, at any rate. But then again, you know I like Petrov because you've seen my voting record in the centers project. At any rate, the Soviet league was more competitive than you seem to believe.

The last time before the fall of communism that CSKA didn't win the Soviet league title was when Spartak won it in 1975-76. Here's what happened from then until the fall of communism:

1976-77:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 57 |28 |1 |7 |220-113 |+107
2 Dynamo Moscou |50 |22 |6 |8 |175-104 |+71
3 Traktor Chelyabinsk |47 |20 |5 |11 |128-106 |+22

1977-78:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 59 |28 |3 |5 |215-109 |+106
2 Dynamo Moscou |46 |21 |4 |11 |161-104 |+57
3 Krylia Sovietov Moscou |40 |17 |6 |13 |146-138 |+8

1978-79:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 72 |35 |2 |7 |277-131 |+146
2 Dynamo Moscou |62 |27 |8 |9 |210-124 |+86
3 Spartak Moscou |52 |25 |2 |17 |179-167 |+12

1979-80:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 80 |39 |2 |3 |306-118 |+188
2 Dynamo Moscou |67 |33 |1 |10 |235-127 |+108
3 Spartak Moscou |61 |28 |5 |11 |195-140 |+45

1980-81:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 77 |36 |5 |3 |268-98 |+170
2 Spartak Moscou |66 |30 |6 |8 |220-124 |+96
3 Dynamo Moscou |58 |25 |8 |11 |192-114 |+78

1981-82:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 78 |38 |2 |4 |252-87 |+165
2 Spartak Moscou |76 |38 |0 |6 |247-117 |+130
3 Dynamo Moscou |72 |34 |4 |6 |220-111 |+109

1982-83:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou | 81 |40 |1 |3 |261-73 |+188
2 Spartak Moscou |69 |33 |3 |8 |208-122 |+86
3 Dynamo Moscou |66 |30 |6 |8 |159-93 |+66

1983-84:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |86 |43 |0 |1 |286-80 |+206
2 Spartak Moscou |58 |26 |6 |12 |214-150 |+64
3 Khimik Voskresensk |57 |26 |5 |13 |176-159 |+17

1984-85:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |68 |31 |6 |3 |221-95 |+126
2 Dynamo Moscou |67 |31 |5 |4 |189-96 |+93
3 Sokol Kiev |41 |18 |5 |17 |144-151 |-7

1985-86:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |69 |32 |5 |3 |219-79 |+140
2 Dynamo Moscou |55 |23 |9 |8 |156-114 |+42
3 Spartak Moscou |49 |20 |9 |11 |146-119 |+25

1986-87:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |74 |36 |2 |2 |223-80 |+143
2 Dynamo Moscou |60 |28 |4 |8 |174-107 |+67
3 SKA Leningrad |49 |21 |7 |12 |154-134 |+20

1987-88:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |27 |11 |5 |2 |81-44 |+37
2 Dynamo Moscou |26 |11 |4 |3 |67-45 |+22
3 Dynamo Riga |25 |11 |3 |4 |66-46 |+20

1988-89:

Team|Points|W|T|L|GF-GA|Diff
1 CSKA Moscou |51 |23 |5 |8 |165-100 |+65
2 Dynamo Moscou |46 |19 |8 |9 |129-103 |+26
3 Krilya Sovietov Moscou |45 |18 |9 |9 |113-84 |+29

As you can see, the league was actually fairly competitive for large portions of CSKA's run. Only in 1983-84 does is look like the Globetrotters vs. Generals exhibition league that you seem to be suggesting it was every year, and in a number of those seasons (1981-82, 1984-85 and 1987-88), CSKA won by the skin of their teeth.

Novy better than Martinec?

Wildly different team situations in the Czech league, as you know. The reason we don't try to compate Novy and Martinec's domestic league scoring is not because it doesn't matter or because the league was not competitive, but rather because Pardubice and Kladno were extremely different team situations (Kladno being like CSKA and Pardubice being like...I dunno, Traktor).

 

[VMBM]

Some very complimentary quotes about Krutov.

Firstly, a couple of passages from Viktor Tikhonov's book, compiled in 1988.

Originally Posted by Viktor Tikhonov
Krutov is an exceptionally talented hockey player, but unfortunately he has weaknesses too. He hasn't always lived like an athlete should, but talented, that he is...

Originally Posted by Viktor Tikhonov
When I was talking with Anatoli Tarasov about matters concerning hockey players recently, he said the following: 'Krutov is the best forward we have ever had. His 1-on-1 moves are [both] unexpected and amazingly rational. He does everything as if openly, simply, without any cunning. Still he is impossible to stop. I think this is partly because he is really brave and determined. Krutov is a few years ahead of everyone else.' So said the expert who nurtured Anatoli Firsov and Valeri Kharlamov.

Pretty high praise, eh? I know that Tarasov always liked Krutov. When he made his own all-star team at the 1982 World Championships in Helsinki, he picked Krutov as his left winger, even though I think the media favoured at least Bill Barber and Sergei Kapustin over Krutov. Tarasov did choose Gretzky as his all-star centre (I think the actual quote was, "Smartest player I've ever seen"), so his list was not all Soviet.
---

Secondly, the Canadian color commentator Ron Reusch during the 1987 Canada Cup

From game 1 of the final http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwN6jb_2ZlU&t=23m10s:

Originally Posted by Ron Reusch
Most think now he is probably their best forward, he's gone by Makarov. And the thing they like to talk about Krutov, (...) not only is he a great offensive player with great speed, great balance and all of those things, but [he is] also a terrific defensive player, great backchecker, plays a total game.

From game 2 of the final, after a battle with Ray Bourque along the boards [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8AgLagRcY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8AgLagRcY[/URL]:

Originally Posted by Ron Reusch
Well, that's why Krutov is the best player in Europe. You saw a perfect example of just how much he wants the puck and how much he wants to score.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of Reusch, but it has more to do with him not always checking the facts rather than with his opinions. As far as his opinion there goes, it pretty much agrees with the general view in Europe/Soviet Union around 1987; Krutov simply got more recognition at the WHCs/Olympics and Soviet MVP voting etc.

 

[VMBM]

When everyone in Europe thinks Firsov > Mikhailov, and hfboards consistently has Mikhailov higher, something is amiss.

I think there is a lot of "Mikhailov played vs. Canada's best, Firsov didn't" reasoning behind that.
Yep, when you listen to Finnish players who played against both in the 1960s and 1970s, it is obvious that generally they consider Firsov better. Or when you read old hockey books, you never get the impression that Mikhailov was a superior player.

I think the problem might stem from Firsov being underrated more than anything else. Isn't he a lot like Kharlamov where the stats don't seem to justify the hype?

TDMM pretty much answered already, but...

I can sort of understand that if you ignore all the quotes and just compare their career numbers, Mikhailov looks pretty good; longer prime & very good numbers vs. better competition (though e.g. Petrov beat him quite often). It is just that not too many Europeans seemed to think in the 1970s that Mikhailov was a better player.

Furthermore, those '60s Soviet league statistics are not the most reliable or informative in the world. Let's just say that Starshinov often managed to score more goals than Firsov. Based on their reputation and international stats (big tournaments), however, it is obvious that Firsov was a better playmaker:

117 pts — 66 go — 51 as —– 9 app — Anatoli FIRSOV
94 pts —– 64 go — 30 as — 10 app — Vyacheslav STARSHINOV
http://www.goironpigs.com/?p=1702

Firsov obviously suffered from the fact that assists were awarded very stingily (or completely ignored) in the 1960s. Having said that, even if they had been awarded (2nd assists too), I don't think Firsov would have even then dominated the Soviet league statistically, although he might have won a couple of more scoring titles.

Internationally Firsov was still easily their best forward in 1969-71 (i.e. even after Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev etc. had arrived), but his - though often incomplete - league stats from the late '60s/early '70s suggest that his play in the Soviet league was not quite as dazzling as in international tournaments. I would like to know why.

 

[jarek]

What's important to note is that viewers of Russian hockey appreciated a sensational player who didn't necessarily score as much a lot more than a guy like Mikhailov, who was productive, but was so in an unspectacular way.

 

[Sturminator]

Pretty high praise, eh?

The quote from Tikhonov, the man who actually coached Krutov, suggests that he was lazy and inconsistent. Not surprisingly, his career suggests that, too.

edit: sounds more like Alexander Mogilny than Dave Taylor, now that I think about it.

 

[VMBM]

The quote from Tikhonov, the man who actually coached Krutov, suggests that he was lazy and inconsistent. Not surprisingly, his career suggests that, too.

edit: sounds more like Alexander Mogilny than Dave Taylor, now that I think about it.

I'm so glad that even you found at least one sentence that pleases you & serves your purpose. Geez.

 

[Sturminator]

I'm so glad that even you found at least one sentence that pleases you & serves your purpose. Geez.

Is comparing Krutov to Mogilny unfair? Mogilny was an exceptionally talented player who brought a remarkably uneven level of effort and committment. Krutov's career paints much the same picture.

If you want to claim that Krutov was this amazing talent, this narrative would account for the 80% or so of his games when he didn't show that level of ability. Or was it just the Soviet league official scorers being mean?

 

[seventieslord]

Mogilny sounds like a pretty good comparison. Makes more sense than McDonald or Taylor, at least, and not just because Mogilny's russian and they're not.

 

[Theokritos]

So do we know now whether the book by Larionov/Taylor says anything about Krutov and Steroids?

 

[seventieslord]

So do we know now whether the book by Larionov/Taylor says anything about Krutov and Steroids?

I haven't had time to go through it.

 

[VMBM]

Yes, well that's right...we shouldn't disregard about 80% of his games, should we?

Some people seem to.

It seems the discussion has pretty much 'died' at this point.

However, having missed this earlier, I had to rectify these apparent faulty assumptions.

Sturminator, are you really claiming that 80 % of the games that Krutov played were Soviet league games, or am I missing something?

Please people, does it really need to be reminded yet again that the best Soviet players played up to 40 international games (plus a few other kind of exhibition games) a season, not just '7-10 games at the WHC/Olympics'? So that's about 90 games a season, when you combine Soviet league/international. Finding the stats for those lesser international tournaments and exhibition games might be a problem, but is CSKA beating up a Traktor or a Sokol in the Soviet league really more noteworthy than USSR playing vs. Czechoslovakia, Sweden or Finland even in some less-meaningful (i.e. non-WHC,-OG or -CC) international contest? Of course it is easier to compare e.g. Makarov and Krutov based on their Soviet league numbers (as they are so readily available), but international games did play a huge part in the careers of Soviet players - both in quantity and in significance.

Chidlovski lists 254 international games played (150 goals) and 439 Soviet league games played for Krutov, so based on those, about 63 % of Krutov's GP were Soviet league games. But Chidlovski does not have all the exhibition games that CSKA and the ntl team played, so I'd bet the percentage is even smaller. http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=k041

Hey, I don't even know whether the complete international stats would make Krutov look better vis-à-vis Makarov. But I'm just sayin'.

 

[Batis]

Please people, does it really need to be reminded yet again that the best Soviet players played up to 40 international games (plus a few other kind of exhibition games) a season, not just '7-10 games at the WHC/Olympics'? So that's about 90 games a season, when you combine Soviet league/international. Finding the stats for those lesser international tournaments and exhibition games might be a problem, but is CSKA beating up a Traktor or a Sokol in the Soviet league really more noteworthy than USSR playing vs. Czechoslovakia, Sweden or Finland even in some less-meaningful (i.e. non-WHC,-OG or -CC) international contest? Of course it is easier to compare e.g. Makarov and Krutov based on their Soviet league numbers (as they are so readily available), but international games did play a huge part in the careers of Soviet players - both in quantity and in significance.

Chidlovski lists 254 international games played (150 goals) and 439 Soviet league games played for Krutov, so based on those, about 63 % of Krutov's GP were Soviet league games. But Chidlovski does not have all the exhibition games that CSKA and the ntl team played, so I'd bet the percentage is even smaller. http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=k041

Hey, I don't even know whether the complete international stats would make Krutov look better vis-à-vis Makarov. But I'm just sayin'.

http://statforum.5-games.ru/viewforum.php This site has the boxscores and statistics of many of these minor international tournaments. Based on the tournament statistics on that site this is how Krutov career stats in these tournaments compares to Makarovs.

Izvestia Cup
Sergei Makarov: 41 gp, 24 g, 22 a, 46 pts (10 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 37 gp, 23 g, 20 a, 43 pts (9 tournaments)

Sweden Cup
Sergei Makarov: 7 gp, 3 g, 7 a, 10 pts (2 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (2 tournaments)

Rude Pravo Cup
Sergei Makarov: 17 gp, 11 g, 4 a, 15 pts (4 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp, 5 g, 2 a, 7 pts (2 tournaments)

Calgary Cup
Sergei Makarov: 4 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (1 tournament)
Vladimir Krutov: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts (1 tournament)

Total
Sergei Makarov: 69 gp, 40 g, 35 a, 75 pts 1.09 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 55 gp, 31 g, 25 a, 56 pts 1.02 PPG

Just like in the major international tournaments Makarov has a small but clear scoring advantage over Krutov in the minor international tournaments. It is however quite obvious that Krutov was a lot closer to Makarov internationally than domestically. Even when not only looking at the major international tournaments. Just for comparisons sake Igor Larionov scored 39 points in 50 games in these minor international tournaments.

Another tournament that the statforum site has the boxscores from is the European Cup for club teams. This is how Krutov compares to Makarov in the final round stage of that tournament according to those boxscores. The reason why I only counted the final round stats is that those were the only ones included in the official scoring race of the tournament as evident at http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/Europe1986.htm

European Cup (Final Round)

Sergei Makarov: 35 gp, 35 g, 22 a, 57 pts
Vladimir Krutov: 28 gp, 21 g, 16 a, 37 pts

Makarov was clearly more effective than Krutov in European Cup play. And his advantage here was more on the level of his dominance in the Soviet League rather than his small statistical edge on the national team.

If we combine Makarov and Krutovs stats at both major and minor international tournaments with their stats in the European Cup, Super Series and the Rendezvous tournament this is how Makarovs and Krutovs scoring compares over a 200+ games sample outside of the Soviet League.

Major/Minor International Tournaments+European Cup+Super Series+Rendezvous

Sergei Makarov: 269 gp, 166 g, 168 a, 334 pts 1.24 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 214 gp, 137 g, 116 a, 253 pts 1.18 PPG

Krutov certainly showed that he could keep up relatively well with Makarov over a pretty big sample size of games internationally.

And if we combine those numbers with their Soviet League stats throughout the 80´s this is what we end up with.

Sergei Makarov: 697 gp, 451 g, 522 a, 973 pts 1.40 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 627gp, 417 g, 328 a, 745 pts 1.19 PPG

I personally think that combining the Soviet League stats with the International stats gives a more accurate picture of the difference between Makarov and Krutov than just using one or the other. Meaning that I think that Krutov probably not was as close to Makarov as the international stats suggests but that he at the same time not was as far behind as the Soviet League stats suggests.

 

[VMBM]

http://statforum.5-games.ru/viewforum.php This site has the boxscores and statistics of many of these minor international tournaments. Based on the tournament statistics on that site this is how Krutov career stats in these tournaments compares to Makarovs.

Izvestia Cup
Sergei Makarov: 41 gp, 24 g, 22 a, 46 pts (10 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 37 gp, 23 g, 20 a, 43 pts (9 tournaments)

Sweden Cup
Sergei Makarov: 7 gp, 3 g, 7 a, 10 pts (2 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (2 tournaments)

Rude Pravo Cup
Sergei Makarov: 17 gp, 11 g, 4 a, 15 pts (4 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp, 5 g, 2 a, 7 pts (2 tournaments)

Calgary Cup
Sergei Makarov: 4 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (1 tournament)
Vladimir Krutov: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts (1 tournament)

Total
Sergei Makarov: 69 gp, 40 g, 35 a, 75 pts 1.09 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 55 gp, 31 g, 25 a, 56 pts 1.02 PPG

Just like in the major international tournaments Makarov has a small but clear scoring advantage over Krutov in the minor international tournaments. It is however quite obvious that Krutov was a lot closer to Makarov internationally than domestically. Even when not only looking at the major international tournaments. Just for comparisons sake Igor Larionov scored 39 points in 50 games in these minor international tournaments.

Another tournament that the statforum site has the boxscores from is the European Cup for club teams. This is how Krutov compares to Makarov in the final round stage of that tournament according to those boxscores. The reason why I only counted the final round stats is that those were the only ones included in the official scoring race of the tournament as evident at http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/Europe1986.htm

European Cup (Final Round)

Sergei Makarov: 35 gp, 35 g, 22 a, 57 pts
Vladimir Krutov: 28 gp, 21 g, 16 a, 37 pts

Makarov was clearly more effective than Krutov in European Cup play. And his advantage here was more on the level of his dominance in the Soviet League rather than his small statistical edge on the national team.

If we combine Makarov and Krutovs stats at both major and minor international tournaments with their stats in the European Cup, Super Series and the Rendezvous tournament this is how Makarovs and Krutovs scoring compares over a 200+ games sample outside of the Soviet League.

Major/Minor International Tournaments+European Cup+Super Series+Rendezvous

Sergei Makarov: 269 gp, 166 g, 168 a, 334 pts 1.24 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 214 gp, 137 g, 116 a, 253 pts 1.18 PPG

Krutov certainly showed that he could keep up relatively well with Makarov over a pretty big sample size of games internationally.

And if we combine those numbers with their Soviet League stats throughout the 80´s this is what we end up with.

Sergei Makarov: 697 gp, 451 g, 522 a, 973 pts 1.40 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 627gp, 417 g, 328 a, 745 pts 1.19 PPG

I personally think that combining the Soviet League stats with the International stats gives a more accurate picture of the difference between Makarov and Krutov than just using one or the other. Meaning that I think that Krutov probably not was as close to Makarov as the international stats suggests but that he at the same time not was as far behind as the Soviet League stats suggests.

Thanks for these.

Then there are still numerous exhibition games left; Chidlovski probably has most of those games, but unfortunately, he lists 'only' goal-scorers. Not that I'm dying to find the full stats (with assists).

Being second to Sergei Makarov isn't a shame; that would have been the fate of every Soviet player in history - statistically at least (I'm pretty sure of that).

 

[VMBM]

Anybody have any theories why Krutov was so clearly more efficient (than on CSKA) and closer to Makarov in international competition? Namely, it is puzzling, since the same 5-man unit played for the CSKA and for the national team, of course.

I could only come up with a couple of vague explanations:

- Krutov cared much more about international games

I guess it could be said that the Soviets were at least a little more tested in international competition (by the Czechs, Swedes and various Canadian teams) than CSKA was in the Soviet league or in the European Cup, when Krutov played - not only in best-on-best tournaments but also in the World Championships and the Olympics. And Krutov was obviously a very competitive player; his record vs. the best (i.e. Team Canada) is brilliant.

And/or

- Krutov had a slightly different role on CSKA than on the ntl team

For example, he played more defensively when he played for CSKA? Okay, this one I don't even believe myself, since it wouldn't really make much sense.

 

[Dreakmur]

Perhaps assists were collected differently in international events compared to domestical play.

 

[VMBM]

Perhaps assists were collected differently in international events compared to domestical play.

Okay, but Krutov was also clearly beaten statistically by Makarov in the European Cup games, which were not domestic league games, but rather matches against other European club teams.

And I'm not so sure that any different way of collecting assists would benefit one or the other - at least not that much.

BTW, Petrov was sort of 'anti-Krutov' in this regard; he was more efficient in the domestic play vis-à-vis his linemates than internationally.