The Decline of Vladimir Krutov

[jarek]

MOD: This Discussion has been moved from the ATD 2015 Summary thread to it's own thread here, please continue to discuss...

Mikhailov in the 3rd round is 'good' and Krutov in the 8th round 'bad'? Riight.

Depends how you view Krutov's alleged steroid use.

Click to read more...

 

[jkrx]

Depends how you view Krutov's alleged steroid use.

A lot of players can be accused of this but with NHL being the NHL and have never been particularly serious about the issue we will never know. As far as Krutov goes, we do not have any proof there either and suggesting he did should be classed as libel.

 

[Sturminator]

A lot of players can be accused of this but with NHL being the NHL and have never been particularly serious about the issue we will never know. As far as Krutov goes, we do not have any proof there either and suggesting he did should be classed as libel.

How tiresome that year-after-year the word "libel" gets thrown around with regards to discussions of Krutov. If the accusations against Krutov constitute libel, why was there never a case filed against Ed Gilles, the man who first made them public? Any of Krutov, Larionov or the Vancouver Canucks could have sued Gilles and likely won if he had published falsehoods, and yet none of those parties has ever made any attempt to rebut his claims.

Conflating the standards of evidence required in a criminal trial with those required in a historical discussion is patently foolish. Any thinking person should know better.

 

[VMBM]

Depends how you view Krutov's alleged steroid use.

Those suspicions/allegations mean absolute zilch to me, so I guess there's the difference right there. I watched Krutov; he was great, super-talented, fast as heck, had terrific hands & hockey mind - things that no drug can give to a player. And despite his early fall from grace, he was one of the top wingers in the world for about 9 years (1980-88) - from 19 to about 28; the length of his prime was really not much different from many other Soviet hockey greats. If he had been really one-dimensional 'workhorse', I would maybe think differently, but he wasn't, and only an ignoramus would claim so.

Here's a great post by Batis from one of the HOH Top Wingers project's voting threads that unfortunately seemed to go pretty much unnoticed (or IIRC, at least nobody commented on it):

Krutov/Larionov/Kurri as junior players:

77/78 Age 17
U18 European Championship
Vladimir Krutov 5 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
Jari Kurri 4 gp, 6 g, 2 a, 8 pts (Best Forward award)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

78/79 Age 18
U20 World Championships
Vladimir Krutov 6 gp, 8 g, 6 a, 14 pts (Leading Scorer, Best Forward award)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 2 g, 4 a, 6 pts
Jari Kurri 6 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts

79/80 Age 19
U20 World Championships
Vladimir Krutov 5 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts (Leading Scorer, Best Forward award)
Jari Kurri 5 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts (2nd in scoring)
Igor Larionov 5 gp, 3 g, 3 a, 6 pts

Olympics
Vladimir Krutov 7 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts (7th in scoring)
Jari Kurri 7 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

As a junior player Krutov was far ahead of both Kurri and Larionov on the international stage. Based on my eye test of the available footage from the 1980 Olympics he also relied far more on his speed than his strenght in his junior days. Unless someone believes that Krutov already had been singled out and was on steroids at the age of 17 or 18 I see no reason to doubt that he was one of the most naturally talented players in Soviet hockey history as opposed to only a product of steroids. And I have never seen any indication of Krutov being on steroids already as a junior player especially considering that Larionov states that all members of the Green Unit refused to accept mysterious injections prior to the 1982 World Championships.

Also that two unknown members of the Vancouver Canucks organisation said that Larionov had hinted to them that Krutov was on steroids is not exactly what I would call strong evidence. And even if it would be true it certainly does not prove that Krutov was juicing already as a junior player when he dominated the World Juniors two years in a row. No matter if the allegations against Krutov is accurate or not I strongly believe that Krutov would have been/was one of the best Soviet players of his generation with or without steroids. His junior career certainly suggest that. And personally I think that Krutovs failure to adjust to life outside of the soviet/red army system was more a case of not being able to handle freedom and the responsabilities that comes with it. But I agree that his sudden fall is mysterious and while I am far from convinced that Krutov was on steroids in his prime it is certainly possible. I highly doubt that he was as a junior player though and I strongly disagree with the notion of Krutov only being a product of steroids.

Even before seeing this I had the opinion that Krutov was one the most talented Soviet palyers ever, but after seeing such concrete proof, there was no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

 

[jarek]

Those suspicions/allegations mean absolute zilch to me, so I guess there's the difference right there. I watched Krutov; he was great, super-talented, fast as heck, had terrific hands & hockey mind - things that no drug can give to a player. And despite his early fall from grace, he was one of the top wingers in the world for about 9 years (1980-88) - from 19 to about 28; the length of his prime was really not much different from many other Soviet hockey greats. If he had been really one-dimensional 'workhorse', I would maybe think differently, but he wasn't, and only an ignoramus would claim so.

Here's a great post by Batis from one of the HOH Top Wingers project's voting threads that unfortunately seemed to go pretty much unnoticed (or IIRC, at least nobody commented on it):



Even before seeing this I had the opinion that Krutov was one the most talented Soviet palyers ever, but after seeing such concrete proof, there was no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

That's a pretty good post there, to be sure. I have no issue in people saying that he was among the most talented Soviets of his time, really. It's just that he fell on his face so hard when he came to the NHL that it does, and rightly so, bring to question what he did abroad. Just about every other player from international hockey systems at least had some modicum of success in the NHL - Krutov was an unmitigated disaster. Which is strange, because his style of play, IMO, should have lended itself very well to the NHL.

Now, with that being the case, there are also people who don't necessarily view the Soviet leagues as anything to take seriously, I imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if this extended to some of the international tournaments as well.

And thus, you get highly varied opinions on Krutov.

 

[jkrx]

How tiresome that year-after-year the word "libel" gets thrown around with regards to discussions of Krutov. If the accusations against Krutov constitute libel, why was there never a case filed against Ed Gilles, the man who first made them public? Any of Krutov, Larionov or the Vancouver Canucks could have sued Gilles and likely won if he had published falsehoods, and yet none of those parties has ever made any attempt to rebut his claims.

Conflating the standards of evidence required in a criminal trial with those required in a historical discussion is patently foolish. Any thinking person should know better.

Not filing a lawsuit is not an admittance of guilt. I thought that was a given. What's foolish here is that some people here take what one possibly biased journalist serious and denounce a great players career because of it. Russian media posted articles that the canadian players were using illegal substances in Sochi. Should we speculate about that too?

I remember TDMM commenting on this writing somthing like that speculations like these are in fact prohibited. Because there is no valid proof.

 

[jkrx]

That's a pretty good post there, to be sure. I have no issue in people saying that he was among the most talented Soviets of his time, really. It's just that he fell on his face so hard when he came to the NHL that it does, and rightly so, bring to question what he did abroad. Just about every other player from international hockey systems at least had some modicum of success in the NHL - Krutov was an unmitigated disaster. Which is strange, because his style of play, IMO, should have lended itself very well to the NHL.

Now, with that being the case, there are also people who don't necessarily view the Soviet leagues as anything to take seriously, I imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if this extended to some of the international tournaments as well.

And thus, you get highly varied opinions on Krutov.

I met Krutov here in Sweden in the early '90s. The guy was reeked of booze everytime. He was obviously a depressed alcoholic. Something that rapidly manifested itself when he was let loose in North America.

 

[BraveCanadian]

How tiresome that year-after-year the word "libel" gets thrown around with regards to discussions of Krutov. If the accusations against Krutov constitute libel, why was there never a case filed against Ed Gilles, the man who first made them public? Any of Krutov, Larionov or the Vancouver Canucks could have sued Gilles and likely won if he had published falsehoods, and yet none of those parties has ever made any attempt to rebut his claims.

Conflating the standards of evidence required in a criminal trial with those required in a historical discussion is patently foolish. Any thinking person should know better.

I don't give the accusations any weight at all.

1) They were never proven and he was never sanctioned in any way as far as I know.

2) I think it would be foolish to believe that one player in that system was dependent on PEDs for his performance while all the rest are free from the same skepticism.

3) There are plenty of skills required to be one of the top hockey players in the world that are independent of the strength-building and recovery enhancements those PEDs would give someone in the first place.

 

[jarek]

I met Krutov here in Sweden in the early '90s. The guy was reeked of booze everytime. He was obviously a depressed alcoholic. Something that rapidly manifested itself when he was let loose in North America.

The circumstances notwithstanding, he was the only true disaster of any of the international players that came to play in the NHL. That should, and rightfully so, knock him down a peg in the ATD, IMO.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The circumstances notwithstanding, he was the only true disaster of any of the international players that came to play in the NHL. That should, and rightfully so, knock him down a peg in the ATD, IMO.

Has he ever been drafted in the range of the rest of the big unit?

I think he has always gone later..

 

[Sturminator]

Has he ever been drafted in the range of the rest of the big unit?

I think he has always gone later..

He was drafted ahead of Larionov this year, if you hadn't noticed.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He was drafted ahead of Larionov this year, if you hadn't noticed.

Oh that's true but Larionov is by far the weakest player of that bunch imo.

His smarts were kind of the glue that helped hold the forward line together but his wingers were far superior players.

 

[Sturminator]

Those suspicions/allegations mean absolute zilch to me, so I guess there's the difference right there. I watched Krutov; he was great, super-talented, fast as heck, had terrific hands & hockey mind - things that no drug can give to a player.

Hockey history is littered with similarly gifted players who did not succeed at the highest level because they lacked the "toolbox" to go along with their tools. If you think Krutov's famous strength (which strangely disappeared in Vancouver) wasn't a major advantage for him as a player, I'm not sure the word ignorant does that position justice.

You can be as mad about it as you want, but that won't change the fact that there are very real and serious questions about Krutov's career in light of the allegations and the circumstantial evidence surrounding his precipitous fall from grace.

 

[Elvis P]

...3) There are plenty of skills required to be one of the top hockey players in the world that are independent of the strength-building and recovery enhancements those PEDs would give someone in the first place.

I really like the way you phrased that. Many people know that the strength-building can help home run hitters. The recovery enhancements can help pitchers recover from normal and tear from pitching or injuries faster. What many people don't know and people who don't know baseball will disagree with this, is that pitching is technique therefore PEDs can't help you throw the ball harder. Scrawny pitchers such as Randy Johnson can throw just as hard if their technique is good. Clemens used PEDs in the second half of his career, because older players take longer to recover from pitching and injuries and the recovery enhancements helped him with that. Sorry for going off topic, but this is an interesting issue that many people don't understand. Some things are technique and not strength.

 

[jkrx]

I really like the way you phrased that. Many people know that the strength-building can help home run hitters. The recovery enhancements can help pitchers recover from normal and tear from pitching or injuries faster. What many people don't know and people who don't know baseball will disagree with this, is that pitching is technique therefore PEDs can't help you throw the ball harder. Scrawny pitchers such as Randy Johnson can throw just as hard if their technique is good. Clemens used PEDs in the second half of his career, because older players take longer to recover from pitching and injuries and the recovery enhancements helped him with that. Sorry for going off topic, but this is an interesting issue that many people don't understand. Some things are technique and not strength.

Recovery enhancements can also help a player recover from, let's say cancer for example. Shall we begin with the speculations Sturm or shall we leave this where it belongs? In the garbage bin with other unproven speculations.

 

[Sturminator]

Recovery enhancements can also help a player recover from, let's say cancer for example. Shall we begin with the speculations Sturm or shall we leave this where it belongs? In the garbage bin with other unproven speculations.

You don't seem to understand the word "speculation", old boy. The discussion of Krutov revolves around two things:

- direct allegations published by Ed Gilles and reiterated by him in a subsequent interview. Gilles is a reputable journalist, and it is for this reason that discussing his statements does not run afoul of hfboards rules regarding libel. According to Gilles, these allegations were originally made by both Igor Larionov and members of the Vancouver Canucks training staff. None of the people involved have ever attempted to rebut the claims made by Gilles.

- circumstantial evidence, to include Krutov's reputation for great strength during his playing career in the Soviet Union, his age when he came over to North America, his utter failure as an NHL player, his obvious lack of strength while playing in Vancouver...etc.

Real "speculation" would be something else...like, for example, the suggestion that all Soviet players were dirty, although Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified as a steroid user. But I know no one in this thread would ever do such things. If such speculation ever got to the point of naming specific other players who might or might not be dirty, it would most likely constitute real libel, and not the ******** kind you like going on about.

 

[jkrx]

You don't seem to understand the word "speculation", old boy. The discussion of Krutov revolves around two things:

- direct allegations published by Ed Gilles and reiterated by him in a subsequent interview. Gilles is a reputable journalist, and it is for this reason that discussing his statements does not run afoul of hfboards rules regarding libel. According to Gilles, these allegations were originally made by both Igor Larionov and members of the Vancouver Canucks training staff. None of the people involved have ever attempted to rebut the claims made by Gilles.

- circumstantial evidence, to include Krutov's reputation for great strength during his playing career in the Soviet Union, his age when he came over to North America, his utter failure as an NHL player, his obvious lack of strength while playing in Vancouver...etc.

Real "speculation" would be something else...like, for example, the suggestion that all Soviet players were dirty, although Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified as a steroid user. But I know no one in this thread would ever do such things. If such speculation ever got to the point of naming specific other players who might or might not be dirty, it would most likely constitute real libel, and not the ******** kind you like going on about.

It was rebuted by Larionov in an interview where he made it clear that he never said Krutov took steroids.

His sudden downfall could be attributed to other factors. His alcoholism and glutony for example.

For all inents and purposes, it's still pure speculation. Arguments of authority aside.

 

[Sturminator]

It was rebuted by Larionov in an interview where he made it clear that he never said Krutov took steroids.

How about you produce this interview, then? If you want to change people's minds, shut up and have out with the evidence.

His sudden downfall could be attributed to other factors. His alcoholism and glutony for example.

You harp on about speculation and then speculate, yourself, in the next breath. It's really quite charming.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You don't seem to understand the word "speculation", old boy. The discussion of Krutov revolves around two things:

- direct allegations published by Ed Gilles and reiterated by him in a subsequent interview. Gilles is a reputable journalist, and it is for this reason that discussing his statements does not run afoul of hfboards rules regarding libel. According to Gilles, these allegations were originally made by both Igor Larionov and members of the Vancouver Canucks training staff. None of the people involved have ever attempted to rebut the claims made by Gilles.

First of all, I thought it was Ed Willes?

- circumstantial evidence, to include Krutov's reputation for great strength during his playing career in the Soviet Union, his age when he came over to North America, his utter failure as an NHL player, his obvious lack of strength while playing in Vancouver...etc.

Real "speculation" would be something else...like, for example, the suggestion that all Soviet players were dirty, although Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified as a steroid user. But I know no one in this thread would ever do such things. If such speculation ever got to the point of naming specific other players who might or might not be dirty, it would most likely constitute real libel, and not the ******** kind you like going on about.

Second, the problem with your condescension is that in the book Willes wrote he says that Larionov talked in his autobiography about the whole national team getting injections of what they were told were vitamins but which they were all suspicious of.. and which he maintains his linemates refused.

 

[jkrx]

How about you produce this interview, then? If you want to change people's minds, shut up and have out with the evidence.

As far as I know. I'm not the one accusing anyone. Let's say Krutov did get injections. Do you have evidence that it was illegal injections? Because that is the speculative part. Everything is based on that he allegedly got injected with something. Yes, even your reputable jounalist bases his accusations on this. I can't find the interview but I do remember Larionovs book where he explicitly wrote that everyone on the green unit refused to get injections.

You harp on about speculation and then speculate, yourself, in the next breath. It's really quite charming.

Im harping on the fact that people is judging Krutov on speculations claiming he owes his career to doping. What I said were not based on speculation or do you deny that he had alcohol problems?

 

[Sturminator]

The actual citation from Willes' book (referencing Larionov's autobiography) can be found here. What it looks like happened is that Larionov claimed in his autobiography that the entire Green Unit refused injections before the Helsinki WEC-A tournament in 1982 and continued to do so, but told a different story to the Canucks trainers and/or Ed Willes. It's not difficult to imagine why he might have behaved in this way. Speaking in private about the problems of friends and colleagues is quite different from writing about them in one's autobiography.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How tiresome that year-after-year the word "libel" gets thrown around with regards to discussions of Krutov. If the accusations against Krutov constitute libel, why was there never a case filed against Ed Gilles, the man who first made them public? Any of Krutov, Larionov or the Vancouver Canucks could have sued Gilles and likely won if he had published falsehoods, and yet none of those parties has ever made any attempt to rebut his claims.

Conflating the standards of evidence required in a criminal trial with those required in a historical discussion is patently foolish. Any thinking person should know better.

Given how Krutov never adjusted to Western culture, isn't it possible that he'd rather just avoid the whole thing than file a lawsuit?

Not filing a lawsuit is not an admittance of guilt. I thought that was a given. What's foolish here is that some people here take what one possibly biased journalist serious and denounce a great players career because of it. Russian media posted articles that the canadian players were using illegal substances in Sochi. Should we speculate about that too?

I remember TDMM commenting on this writing somthing like that speculations like these are in fact prohibited. Because there is no valid proof.

This is the forum role for libel:

13) Libel: Any posts libeling players, prospects, or hockey personnel. It's not acceptable to post that you heard Player X has a drinking/drug/sex/personal problem from a "good" source. Do not post information that can be considered defamatory without a link to a credible media source. Other forums, personal websites, hearsay, and personal testimonials are not considered credible.

A credible source for the Krutov steroid allegations (Ed Willies) has been provided many times on this forum. Does that mean that the allegations are necessarily true? no. But it does mean that if anyone is getting sued, it is Willies, not hfboards, so it is a perfectly fine discussion to have.

I think Bergeron is a better choice as a third liner to begin with but each to his own I guess. I also clearly said that Bergeron (and the other guy mentioned in my summary) were taken later than some comparables were taken = good value. Probably one of the best value third liners in this draft and therefor I consider Bergeron to be one of the wiser moves in this draft, especially since some people picked third liners really early (like me for example who already had 2/3 of the third line completed by then).

Toews basically won 2 gold medals playing as the checking line center for Team Canada. I don't see why he shouldn't play the same role in the ATD at even strength.

You aren't convincing me that the likes of Phil Goyette (just to name one guy, there are many more) is a better defensive player than Jonathan Toews.

 

[Sturminator]

Given how Krutov never adjusted to Western culture, isn't it possible that he'd rather just avoid the whole thing than file a lawsuit?

I'd be surprised if both Igor Larionov and the Canucks organization would let someone publish false statements from their mouths without a public comeuppance. It's not just about Krutov here. Any of three parties could have refuted what Willies wrote, with or without a formal lawsuit. None has.

 

[BraveCanadian]

What it looks like happened is that Larionov claimed in his autobiography that the entire Green Unit refused injections before the Helsinki WEC-A tournament in 1982 and continued to do so, but told a different story to the Canucks trainers and/or Ed Willes. It's not difficult to imagine why he might have behaved in this way. Speaking in private about the problems of friends and colleagues is quite different from writing about them in one's autobiography.

Where does Willes say that Larionov is one of the sources in Vancouver that his allegation comes from?

It is also worth pointing out that, despite his "credible" allegation, Willes himself admits that he can't prove a thing.

My understanding is that we have Larionov saying the whole national team was being given suspicious injections, and later on, two members of the Vancouver organization (one of them Larionov?) interviewed by Willes believing Krutov's fall off was because he didn't have steroids.

Which, honestly, is a dumb theory in the first place because steroids are available and other NHLers of the time did get them (Kordic for example). Some players even in recent seasons have been in trouble for using PEDs.

Meanwhile, we have plenty of other evidence as to why Krutov had a very difficult and obviously unsuccessful adjustment. (Occam's razor anyone?)

Is there anything at all separating suspicion of Krutov from the rest of the former Soviet players besides the one interview in which Willes cites two anonymous Canucks organization members belief that cannot be proven?

Maybe I'm missing something..

 

[Sturminator]

I'd suggest you go find the Willies interview, yourself, BC. It's been posted many times on hfboards. I'm not going to do the work for you.

It is also worth pointing out that, despite his "credible" allegation, Willes himself admits that he can't prove a thing.

So have you read the interview, or have you not? Sounds like you have read it.

At any rate, this is completely meaningless. Again, we trip over false ideas about standards of proof. No one has to "prove" anything for us to discuss it and take it into account in the ATD. What-x-said-about-y is about 90% of the evidence we use around here beyond raw statistics. To attempt to throw out or undermine the validity of this sort of evidence only in the case of Krutov is just silly. If you don't like he-said-she-said arguments, I suggest you start by never opening another ATD bio thread again.

Nothing that's been discussed here today is news; the quotes from Larionov's biography have been around for a long time. This is just the same old people airing the same old grievances about how awful it is that the same standards of evidence we apply to discussions of all players cause us to pose hard questions about the quality of Vladimir Krutov's career. Oh, the humanity.