jarek
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2009
- 10,004
- 238
As far as I know,Jarek isnt a defender since he was the one who originally criticized Krutov.
I do not defend Krutov, but it has little to do with steroids.
As far as I know,Jarek isnt a defender since he was the one who originally criticized Krutov.
How far are we going to take this reliance on domestic regular season statistics? Will this board soon find Petrov to be better than Mikhailov or Kharlamov?
Novy better than Martinec?
Originally Posted by Viktor Tikhonov
Krutov is an exceptionally talented hockey player, but unfortunately he has weaknesses too. He hasn't always lived like an athlete should, but talented, that he is...
Originally Posted by Viktor Tikhonov
When I was talking with Anatoli Tarasov about matters concerning hockey players recently, he said the following: 'Krutov is the best forward we have ever had. His 1-on-1 moves are [both] unexpected and amazingly rational. He does everything as if openly, simply, without any cunning. Still he is impossible to stop. I think this is partly because he is really brave and determined. Krutov is a few years ahead of everyone else.' So said the expert who nurtured Anatoli Firsov and Valeri Kharlamov.
Originally Posted by Ron Reusch
Most think now he is probably their best forward, he's gone by Makarov. And the thing they like to talk about Krutov, (...) not only is he a great offensive player with great speed, great balance and all of those things, but [he is] also a terrific defensive player, great backchecker, plays a total game.
Originally Posted by Ron Reusch
Well, that's why Krutov is the best player in Europe. You saw a perfect example of just how much he wants the puck and how much he wants to score.
When everyone in Europe thinks Firsov > Mikhailov, and hfboards consistently has Mikhailov higher, something is amiss.
I think the problem might stem from Firsov being underrated more than anything else. Isn't he a lot like Kharlamov where the stats don't seem to justify the hype?
Pretty high praise, eh?
The quote from Tikhonov, the man who actually coached Krutov, suggests that he was lazy and inconsistent. Not surprisingly, his career suggests that, too.
edit: sounds more like Alexander Mogilny than Dave Taylor, now that I think about it.
I'm so glad that even you found at least one sentence that pleases you & serves your purpose. Geez.
So do we know now whether the book by Larionov/Taylor says anything about Krutov and Steroids?
Yes, well that's right...we shouldn't disregard about 80% of his games, should we?
Some people seem to.
Please people, does it really need to be reminded yet again that the best Soviet players played up to 40 international games (plus a few other kind of exhibition games) a season, not just '7-10 games at the WHC/Olympics'? So that's about 90 games a season, when you combine Soviet league/international. Finding the stats for those lesser international tournaments and exhibition games might be a problem, but is CSKA beating up a Traktor or a Sokol in the Soviet league really more noteworthy than USSR playing vs. Czechoslovakia, Sweden or Finland even in some less-meaningful (i.e. non-WHC,-OG or -CC) international contest? Of course it is easier to compare e.g. Makarov and Krutov based on their Soviet league numbers (as they are so readily available), but international games did play a huge part in the careers of Soviet players - both in quantity and in significance.
Chidlovski lists 254 international games played (150 goals) and 439 Soviet league games played for Krutov, so based on those, about 63 % of Krutov's GP were Soviet league games. But Chidlovski does not have all the exhibition games that CSKA and the ntl team played, so I'd bet the percentage is even smaller. http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_player_info.asp?p_id=k041
Hey, I don't even know whether the complete international stats would make Krutov look better vis-Ã -vis Makarov. But I'm just sayin'.
http://statforum.5-games.ru/viewforum.php This site has the boxscores and statistics of many of these minor international tournaments. Based on the tournament statistics on that site this is how Krutov career stats in these tournaments compares to Makarovs.
Izvestia Cup
Sergei Makarov: 41 gp, 24 g, 22 a, 46 pts (10 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 37 gp, 23 g, 20 a, 43 pts (9 tournaments)
Sweden Cup
Sergei Makarov: 7 gp, 3 g, 7 a, 10 pts (2 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (2 tournaments)
Rude Pravo Cup
Sergei Makarov: 17 gp, 11 g, 4 a, 15 pts (4 tournaments)
Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp, 5 g, 2 a, 7 pts (2 tournaments)
Calgary Cup
Sergei Makarov: 4 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (1 tournament)
Vladimir Krutov: 3 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts (1 tournament)
Total
Sergei Makarov: 69 gp, 40 g, 35 a, 75 pts 1.09 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 55 gp, 31 g, 25 a, 56 pts 1.02 PPG
Just like in the major international tournaments Makarov has a small but clear scoring advantage over Krutov in the minor international tournaments. It is however quite obvious that Krutov was a lot closer to Makarov internationally than domestically. Even when not only looking at the major international tournaments. Just for comparisons sake Igor Larionov scored 39 points in 50 games in these minor international tournaments.
Another tournament that the statforum site has the boxscores from is the European Cup for club teams. This is how Krutov compares to Makarov in the final round stage of that tournament according to those boxscores. The reason why I only counted the final round stats is that those were the only ones included in the official scoring race of the tournament as evident at http://www.passionhockey.com/hockeyarchives/Europe1986.htm
European Cup (Final Round)
Sergei Makarov: 35 gp, 35 g, 22 a, 57 pts
Vladimir Krutov: 28 gp, 21 g, 16 a, 37 pts
Makarov was clearly more effective than Krutov in European Cup play. And his advantage here was more on the level of his dominance in the Soviet League rather than his small statistical edge on the national team.
If we combine Makarov and Krutovs stats at both major and minor international tournaments with their stats in the European Cup, Super Series and the Rendezvous tournament this is how Makarovs and Krutovs scoring compares over a 200+ games sample outside of the Soviet League.
Major/Minor International Tournaments+European Cup+Super Series+Rendezvous
Sergei Makarov: 269 gp, 166 g, 168 a, 334 pts 1.24 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 214 gp, 137 g, 116 a, 253 pts 1.18 PPG
Krutov certainly showed that he could keep up relatively well with Makarov over a pretty big sample size of games internationally.
And if we combine those numbers with their Soviet League stats throughout the 80´s this is what we end up with.
Sergei Makarov: 697 gp, 451 g, 522 a, 973 pts 1.40 PPG
Vladimir Krutov: 627gp, 417 g, 328 a, 745 pts 1.19 PPG
I personally think that combining the Soviet League stats with the International stats gives a more accurate picture of the difference between Makarov and Krutov than just using one or the other. Meaning that I think that Krutov probably not was as close to Makarov as the international stats suggests but that he at the same time not was as far behind as the Soviet League stats suggests.
Perhaps assists were collected differently in international events compared to domestical play.