The 'best player' vs 'most valuable to team' problem.

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Except the award is about most valuable to their team. If you take Kucherov off Tampa, are they still the top team in the league?
It's more valuable to your team. It's NOT more valuable to your team above #2 on your team.

82 points > 68 points. So yes Kucherov is more valuable to his team.

Is the gap between Kucherov and Hedman's or Stamko's value to his team greater than the gap between Hall and #2 on NJ? No. But i don't think that's what the award is about, nor should be about.
 
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Hischier and Hughes

“I love to hockey”
Jan 28, 2018
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The good ole stacked team argument. Gotta love it.

Did you happen to catch how terrible Tampa looked against Toronto without Kucherov? It was borderline unwatchable. PP was horrific.
So youre sayin Tampa Bay doesnt have the best roster in the league?
 

Sam Spade

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May 4, 2009
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Hart: Kucherov, Ovechkin, Hall

Lindsay: Kucherov, Malkin, Ovechkin

The finalists might be different but I think Kucherov has got both won assuming health.

I agree with this, with the stipulation that if MacKinnon propels the Avs into the playoffs he should replace Ovechkin (or Hall if the Devils don't make the playoffs). Either way if Kucherov comes back in the next game of so he should probably win both awards.

People citing Hall's numbers and how far above his teammates they are, Ovechkin is in the same boat, he has only ten more points than Kuznetsov, but 20 more goals than the next guy, and 21 more points than the third guy on the Caps. The only consistent offensive threat they have had all year really.

That being said........
Did you happen to catch how terrible Tampa looked against Toronto without Kucherov? It was borderline unwatchable. PP was horrific.

Without Hedman they were really bad and HE, not Kucherov, is probably the most important person on the Bolts.

Sort of crazy when you think about it.
 

Its a Trap

Yes I’m still here to piss you off
It's more valuable to your team. It's NOT more valuable to your team above #2 on your team.

82 points > 68 points. So yes Kucherov is more valuable to his team.

Is the gap between Kucherov and Hedman's or Stamko's value to his team greater than the gap between Hall and #2 on NJ? No. But i don't think that's what the award is about, nor should be about.
You didn’t answer my question. The award is about most valuable to their team. What happens when you remove the player for both teams?
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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There is so much wrong with this post lol.

Your main premise is: "most points = most valuable". Then you proceed to say: "well if it's close, maybe it's different". Then you go into the classic "goals vs. assists" argument to boost up Ovechkin.

Secondly, you said "it's not about picking Hall is essentially the biggest part of the NJ pie, and they suck". Don't you think that's a bit disingenuous? Hall is single-handedly carrying that team to the playoffs, with only one other 40 point producer on the team. They have a negative goal differential for crying out loud.

Finally, going off your logic, Kessel is more valuable to PIT than Hall to NJ because he has more points. Can't you see how that makes no sense? People are trying to stretch the argument so far to make it seem like any team that is garbage automatically should give the MVP to their best player. No one is saying that. People are saying Hall is having a great season (missed 5 games) on a team that is not good at all, with a massive lead in points and currently in a playoff spot.

Well Hall contributes mostly only offense. Which is why i'm looking at point totals only.

Ovechkin contributes a lot of goals. In a vacuum, more goals make up for a few less point I think. So if Ovi finishes with 55 goals 45 assists 100 points, and Kucherov has 105 points but much less goals - I can see a case for Ovi for Hart. Hall doesn't have a big edge on goals on Kucherov, and he has a big gap on points. So he's neither/nor.

Other aspects outside of offense that can matter. Defensive play (something i personally don't care much about, but can still appreciate the argument). So if someone like Bergeon or Kopitar were in contention for Hart and someone wanted to argue "well he has less points than Kucherov but makes up for it with defensive play" - it could make sense if the gap in offense wasn't that big. Again - Hall doesn't really have that.

Does Hall have intangibles? Toews. Crosby even. I could see a hypothetical where one of them finishes 5-6 points back of a scoring race but people say "yeah but - he was the captain and such a great leader full of intangibles all year that helped propel his team to success, so the 5-6 point gap is not enough and i'll give him the hart". Hall doesn't really have intangibles (no more than Kuch).

So yeah. When comparing Kucherov and Hall i look at mostly just points and overall offense. And the gap is wide. Hall may have played less games, but that's actually a component in the hart race, so it's fair if less games played ends up hurting him.

Regarding Kessel vs Hall, since you brought it up. There is 2 points difference (70 vs 68). Kessel is also not even the best player on his team (ie people will vote for Malkin above Kessel). So in a Hall vs Kessel debate for Hart, yes as of now Hall is easily ahead.

The "weak team" argument Hall has doesn't count for nothing. That's not what i'm saying. All i'm saying is people tend to overrate the importance of it by a lot. Hall and Kucherov are very similar players when it comes to hart. Both wingers, who bring offense. That's their value to a team. And Kucherov has simply been quite a bit better so far, and warrants being ahead in the Hart race. If Hall was within 3-4 points of Kucherov? Ok at that point i'd be willing to consider Hall based on the "weak team" argument. But the gap is too big right now.
 

Its a Trap

Yes I’m still here to piss you off
Well Hall contributes mostly only offense. Which is why i'm looking at point totals only.

Ovechkin contributes a lot of goals. In a vacuum, more goals make up for a few less point I think. So if Ovi finishes with 55 goals 45 assists 100 points, and Kucherov has 105 points but much less goals - I can see a case for Ovi for Hart. Hall doesn't have a big edge on goals on Kucherov, and he has a big gap on points. So he's neither/nor.

Other aspects outside of offense that can matter. Defensive play (something i personally don't care much about, but can still appreciate the argument). So if someone like Bergeon or Kopitar were in contention for Hart and someone wanted to argue "well he has less points than Kucherov but makes up for it with defensive play" - it could make sense if the gap in offense wasn't that big. Again - Hall doesn't really have that.

Does Hall have intangibles? Toews. Crosby even. I could see a hypothetical where one of them finishes 5-6 points back of a scoring race but people say "yeah but - he was the captain and such a great leader full of intangibles all year that helped propel his team to success, so the 5-6 point gap is not enough and i'll give him the hart". Hall doesn't really have intangibles (no more than Kuch).

So yeah. When comparing Kucherov and Hall i look at mostly just points and overall offense. And the gap is wide. Hall may have played less games, but that's actually a component in the hart race, so it's fair if less games played ends up hurting him.

Regarding Kessel vs Hall, since you brought it up. There is 2 points difference (70 vs 68). Kessel is also not even the best player on his team (ie people will vote for Malkin above Kessel). So in a Hall vs Kessel debate for Hart, yes as of now Hall is easily ahead.

The "weak team" argument Hall has doesn't count for nothing. That's not what i'm saying. All i'm saying is people tend to overrate the importance of it by a lot. Hall and Kucherov are very similar players when it comes to hart. Both wingers, who bring offense. That's their value to a team. And Kucherov has simply been quite a bit better so far, and warrants being ahead in the Hart race. If Hall was within 3-4 points of Kucherov? Ok at that point i'd be willing to consider Hall based on the "weak team" argument. But the gap is too big right now.
Hall has been great defensively since he’s been here but ok then.
 

george14

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Mar 9, 2014
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Well Hall contributes mostly only offense. Which is why i'm looking at point totals only.

Ovechkin contributes a lot of goals. In a vacuum, more goals make up for a few less point I think. So if Ovi finishes with 55 goals 45 assists 100 points, and Kucherov has 105 points but much less goals - I can see a case for Ovi for Hart. Hall doesn't have a big edge on goals on Kucherov, and he has a big gap on points. So he's neither/nor.

Other aspects outside of offense that can matter. Defensive play (something i personally don't care much about, but can still appreciate the argument). So if someone like Bergeon or Kopitar were in contention for Hart and someone wanted to argue "well he has less points than Kucherov but makes up for it with defensive play" - it could make sense if the gap in offense wasn't that big. Again - Hall doesn't really have that.

Does Hall have intangibles? Toews. Crosby even. I could see a hypothetical where one of them finishes 5-6 points back of a scoring race but people say "yeah but - he was the captain and such a great leader full of intangibles all year that helped propel his team to success, so the 5-6 point gap is not enough and i'll give him the hart". Hall doesn't really have intangibles (no more than Kuch).

So yeah. When comparing Kucherov and Hall i look at mostly just points and overall offense. And the gap is wide. Hall may have played less games, but that's actually a component in the hart race, so it's fair if less games played ends up hurting him.

Regarding Kessel vs Hall, since you brought it up. There is 2 points difference (70 vs 68). Kessel is also not even the best player on his team (ie people will vote for Malkin above Kessel). So in a Hall vs Kessel debate for Hart, yes as of now Hall is easily ahead.

The "weak team" argument Hall has doesn't count for nothing. That's not what i'm saying. All i'm saying is people tend to overrate the importance of it by a lot. Hall and Kucherov are very similar players when it comes to hart. Both wingers, who bring offense. That's their value to a team. And Kucherov has simply been quite a bit better so far, and warrants being ahead in the Hart race. If Hall was within 3-4 points of Kucherov? Ok at that point i'd be willing to consider Hall based on the "weak team" argument. But the gap is too big right now.

That is phrased better. But I do think Hall has been better defensively than you are giving him credit for.

I agree the gap is wide now, but when a team like TB has 7 guys with more points than the #2 guy on NJ, it tells a lot about your team. I hope the voters look into that and actually recognize Hall. Hall vs. Kucherov in terms of PPG is pretty close too, advantage to Kucherov obviously. Hall will indeed have to close the gap.

The only way Ovi wins the Hart is if he goes on a tear and Kucherov eats sh!t. It's the same argument you are making against Hall. The gap would have to be closed. Currently there is an 11 point lead and it's no guarantee Ovi even wins the Richard.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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You didn’t answer my question. The award is about most valuable to their team. What happens when you remove the player for both teams?

I didn't answer your question because I disagreed with your statement. You're stating the award is about most valuable to their team - but we have a different interpretation of that statement. Which you yourself are ignoring my response on.

What you're trying to ask if which player is a bigger piece to their team's pie. I'll answer you with a (crappy) math analogy.

Let's say Tampa is a 100 and NJ is an 80 (Tampa is a better team so gets a bigger score).

Hall is worth 20 points. 20/80 = 25% importance.
Kucherov is worth 23 points. 23/100 = 23% importance.

You're saying Hall should win the hart because 25% > 23%
I'm saying no, Kucherov should win the hart because 23 > 20

Team strength/weakness shouldn't play as big of a role as you want it to.
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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Hall has been great defensively since he’s been here but ok then.

Okay. I don't really know nor care much about defensive play but i'll bite.

Is your argument that Hall should win the Hart above Kucherov because despite weaker offense he makes up for it with that much stronger defense? If that was the case, than sure you may have a point. I'd be willing to be that people would laugh with that premise though. Even if Hall has been good defensively i doubt it's anything worthy of Hart consideration.
 

Killswitch7187

Winter is here
Jun 29, 2009
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The whole concept of "Most Valuable to their team" is laughable to me. You're essentially rewarding someone based off the inferiority of their teammates, and using it as your main criteria. "Who is the best player on the ice any given night?" is the criteria it should be. I don't care what a team would look like without "x player" - it is irrelevant.

And the answer to "Who has been the best player in 17-18?" would be Kucherov. Hall and Malkin have definitely made a case in 2018, but Kucherov has been amazing throughout the entire course of the season.
 

member 147413

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I take Wheeler, Kopitar, Malkin, OV or Hall on my team this season over Kucherov and honestly it’s pretty easy not to include him.
 

RDTBay4

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Apr 28, 2014
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Clearwater, FL
The arguments for Hall could have been used for Kucherov last year. He was vaguely near the top in points and carrying his team in the 2nd half of the season. If Tampa made the playoffs last year did Kucherov deserve the Hart? Last year me would have said yes, and I would have been wrong.
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,502
15,330
That is phrased better. But I do think Hall has been better defensively than you are giving him credit for.

I agree the gap is wide now, but when a team like TB has 7 guys with more points than the #2 guy on NJ, it tells a lot about your team. I hope the voters look into that and actually recognize Hall. Hall vs. Kucherov in terms of PPG is pretty close too, advantage to Kucherov obviously. Hall will indeed have to close the gap.

The only way Ovi wins the Hart is if he goes on a tear and Kucherov eats sh!t. It's the same argument you are making against Hall. The gap would have to be closed. Currently there is an 11 point lead and it's no guarantee Ovi even wins the Richard.

I admit i literally know nothing about Hall's defensive abilities, but nor do I Kucherov's. So i'm not trying to say he sucks defensively, but as far as I know neither player's strength is defensive ability. Is Hall that much better/valuable than Kucherov defensively? If he is maybe that can account for a bit of a gap in offense as well. But if Kucherov is as good/better defensively (which I suspect) it's mostly a wash, and so we're back to considering offense only when comparing the 2.

I give more credence to Ovi simply because of past success/track record. So yeah, he would have to go on a tear to not only win Rocket but by a decent margin (and/or close the gap more on the Art ross race). Still - because he does have more goals (and points too) i'd place him higher than Hall in the hart race as of today. I also personally believe he's more likely than Hall to go on a tear to end the year - but that's just my personal opinion.
 

Its a Trap

Yes I’m still here to piss you off
I didn't answer your question because I disagreed with your statement. You're stating the award is about most valuable to their team - but we have a different interpretation of that statement. Which you yourself are ignoring my response on.

What you're trying to ask if which player is a bigger piece to their team's pie. I'll answer you with a (crappy) math analogy.

Let's say Tampa is a 100 and NJ is an 80 (Tampa is a better team so gets a bigger score).

Hall is worth 20 points. 20/80 = 25% importance.
Kucherov is worth 23 points. 23/100 = 23% importance.

You're saying Hall should win the hart because 25% > 23%
I'm saying no, Kucherov should win the hart because 23 > 20

Team strength/weakness shouldn't play as big of a role as you want it to.
Okay. I don't really know nor care much about defensive play but i'll bite.

Is your argument that Hall should win the Hart above Kucherov because despite weaker offense he makes up for it with that much stronger defense? If that was the case, than sure you may have a point. I'd be willing to be that people would laugh with that premise though. Even if Hall has been good defensively i doubt it's anything worthy of Hart consideration.

So you didn’t answer me because you disagree with my statement of the actual words on the award and then you go and say you don’t know anything or care about defense which is literally half the game? Thanks for your time, have a good day.

The whole concept of "Most Valuable to their team" is laughable to me. You're essentially rewarding someone based off the inferiority of their teammates, and using it as your main criteria. "Who is the best player on the ice any given night?" is the criteria it should be. I don't care what a team would look like without "x player" - it is irrelevant.

And the answer to "Who has been the best player in 17-18?" would be Kucherov. Hall and Malkin have definitely made a case in 2018, but Kucherov has been amazing throughout the entire course of the season.

That’s why they have the Ted Lindsay Award.
 

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