News Article: The Athletic: Mitch Marner's re-emergence alongside Nazem Kadri makes the Leafs scary again

ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
2,523
The fans have seen the Komarov issue. We have talked about the Polak issue and the Martin issue repeatedly. We have talked about the Bozak issue and its relationship to Marner as well. The problems, we the "stupid and ignorant" fans have been largely in the right calling out all issues and when Babcock gets around to implementing our consensus, positive results followed.

So on one side of the pro/anti-Babcock debate, the cause for concern isn't actually due to a lack of criticism on the part of the pro-Babcock side, it's the inability to recognize the unheralded coaching order of operations on the part of the anti-Babcock side...Ok. Gotcha. :rolleyes:
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,269
10,156
So on one side of the pro/anti-Babcock debate, the cause for concern isn't actually due to a lack of criticism on the part of the pro-Babcock side, it's the inability to recognize the unheralded coaching order of operations on the part of the anti-Babcock side...Ok. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

Well, I don't speak for everyone but have said on may occasions that Babcock is running lines to both teach and limit production. I have no doubt that we could fire wagon our way through the season and make the PO. The problem is the contenders would rip us apart in short order.

The changes we suggested early were stupid obvious, a peewee coach could spot it. I didn't even have to think about it when making comments over the timeline. Just watch, no analytic analysis or anything.
 

frizzer1

Registered User
Oct 19, 2013
5,459
3,966
...are you saying the Matthews line is not working well? What have you been watching?

Thinking that Kapanen if given the chance to play with Matthews last year and this year would have improved Matthews' line is fallacious.

You know, I don't usually respond to this kind of thing, but what the heck?

What I'm trying to say is that until we see another winger on that line we have no way of knowing whether the Matthews line is producing as well as it could.
Are you implying that there is no need to try anyone else because it can't get any better?
And tell me, how do you know that Kapanen on that line would not improve it? There is no evidence to support or disprove your statement.
None.
 
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Superstar

"Be water, my friend."
Jun 25, 2008
12,444
8,523
You know, I don't usually respond to this kind of thing, but what the heck?

What I'm trying to say is that until we see another winger on that line we have no way of knowing whether the Matthews line is producing as well as it could.
Are you implying that there is no need to try anyone else because it can't get any better?
And tell me, how do you know that Kapanen on that line would not improve it? There is no evidence to support or disprove your statement.
None.

LOL, this is a discussion, respond to it or not.

What do I need to prove to you? What has been proven is Hyman works on a line with Matthews, and allows scoring depth throughout the line-up...that's a proven fact...you can't dispute the results of the strength of that line...what you implied has not been proven...it's really that simple. And I never said replacing Hyman for Kapanen won't work or be better, but you can't prove to me or anyone that it would be better.
 

ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
2,523
Stop talking about sides and give your damn opinion.

I don't speak or understand Snowflakese, Joey, but the reason I've mentioned sides is to demonstrate how one side is baselessly/needlessly criticizing another. I think that's a worthwhile exercise because I value clarity in communication, especially among our fanbase.

Easy enough to glean I'd think, if you'd taken the time to read a few posts.

Opinion: And I don't give the smallest of damns if you care for it or not.
 

ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
2,523
Well, I don't speak for everyone but have said on may occasions that Babcock is running lines to both teach and limit production. I have no doubt that we could fire wagon our way through the season and make the PO. The problem is the contenders would rip us apart in short order.

The changes we suggested early were stupid obvious, a peewee coach could spot it. I didn't even have to think about it when making comments over the timeline. Just watch, no analytic analysis or anything.

All previously and completely understood.

The quibble isn't about obvious changes that one side repeatedly notes. It's about noticing the errors and believing there's a larger plan in place that offsets the constant criticism of the coach. No synthesis of and analysis of information is needed to conclude that this championship coach knows what he's doing even when it appears to fans that he doesn't.

The (previously assumed obvious) suggestion is simply - in line with what you've alluded to - Babcock's teachable moments might in the short run add up to head-scratching on-ice decisions, but in the long run inform a club led by rookies what is required of even their immense talents.

As he said to Matthews, the moment your talent exceeds your work ethic, you're done.

And there are some of us who have been saying to those ranting about the stupid, obvious, peewee coach corrections and inferring the worst about the coach, that maybe, just maybe, Babcock notices them too and understands (better than we do?) why they're necessary in the moment so as to build a better club on the whole.
 
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thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,269
10,156
All previously and completely understood.

The quibble isn't about obvious changes that one side repeatedly notes. It's about noticing the errors and believing there's a larger plan in place that offsets the constant criticism of the coach. No synthesis of and analysis of information is needed to conclude that this championship coach knows what he's doing even when it appears to fans that he doesn't.

The (previously assumed obvious) suggestion is simply - in line with what you've alluded to - Babcock's teachable moments might in the short run add up to head-scratching on-ice decisions, but in the long run inform a club led by rookies what is required of even their immense talents.

As he said to Matthews, the moment your talent exceeds your work ethic, you're done.

And there are some of us who have been saying to those ranting about the stupid, obvious, peewee coach corrections and inferring the worst about the coach, that maybe, just maybe, Babcock notices them too and understands (better than we do?) why they're necessary in the moment so as to build a better club on the whole.

I will expand later as I don't have much time. I thought the team looked awful at the start of the season and those were some of the most horrible ways a team can win. It reminded me of a Ron Wilson team. I specifically am on record saying that Babcock will probably reign them in and get them playing right. Within a few games that was indeed the case. I know it's a balancing act, I know it's not simple and I am sure Babcock knows what he is doing and could see the problems. I do question the usage of some players such as Polak for instance, but I don't know if they are pumping his tires for trade etc. There are a lot of dynamics to this I am not privy to.
 

highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
1,601
18
Could I hear that argument, please?
sorry, i take back torts, although i think he did a better job with cbj than babcock could. he's still pretty close. other 4 i stand by.

torts:

american coach with the most or second wins in nhl history.

stanley cup with the lightning
jack adams 3 times
ny rangers to conf finals
over 500 wins
7 conf 1/4 finals

1 cup, 9 playoffs

babs
1 cup 12 playoffs
 

The Kessel Run

Registered User
Jun 7, 2011
12,719
4,290
sorry, i take back torts, although i think he did a better job with cbj than babcock could. he's still pretty close. other 4 i stand by.

torts:

american coach with the most or second wins in nhl history.

stanley cup with the lightning
jack adams 3 times
ny rangers to conf finals
over 500 wins
7 conf 1/4 finals

1 cup, 9 playoffs

babs
1 cup 12 playoffs

Well, you made it more compelling than I'd expected! Well done.
 

Le Cobra

Rent A Goalie
Nov 11, 2015
3,101
1,386
Toronto The Good
Right now we've got two quality 1st lines, a legit 2/3 line, and a useful 4th line. The defense corps has two top-15 defense scorers and features 3 pairings that can move the puck by rushing it or with an outlet. The goalie is a legit Vezina candidate whose puck playing abilities are not only safe but the kind that consistently lead to breakouts and offense. There's also that coach.

When was the last time we had it this good? The Pat Quinn era?

1960s
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,168
32,824
St. Paul, MN
This decision could be Babcocks best move of the year.

Leo gets to play in a role better suited for his skillset and he’s unleashed an offensive juggernaught with the Kadri-Marner tandem.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
23,856
22,061
Richmond Hill, ON
This decision could be Babcocks best move of the year.

Leo gets to play in a role better suited for his skillset and he’s unleashed an offensive juggernaught with the Kadri-Marner tandem.

Nylander, Marner and a heavy LWer could be a nice combination. That allows Babs to move Kappy up with Matthews and Hyman. Not a bad 1-2-3 punch with Kardi, Marleau and Brown as your 3rd line.
 

Glenn Isildur Healy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2013
4,524
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CBC Studios
This decision could be Babcocks best move of the year.

Leo gets to play in a role better suited for his skillset and he’s unleashed an offensive juggernaught with the Kadri-Marner tandem.

I really like our top 4 forwards being paired up to form 2 lethal offensive combos

I don't know how opposing teams are planning to stop Hyman-Matthews-Nylander as well as Marleau-Kadri-Marner. If Babcock sticks Kapanen with JVR and Bozak, that's a pretty impressive 3rd line too
 
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