Boston Bruins The 4th Line Dilemma

[Fenian24]

You're going to hit you should learn to fight. I don't want a Matt Cooke or another guy who hits but won't back it up.

 

[patty59]

Fighting is pretty much out of this league now. There's the odd dust up, but that's about it. That said, I think having good size up front and guys who can skate and hit hard are very important on a checking line. Kuraly and Acciari are prime candidates for that line in my eye. If they want Schaller there I don't see an issue with that either, it's not like the difference between him and Kuraly is all that great anyways. I don't think they're taking Nash out of the lineup, for as vanilla as the guy is, he's a decent player and does a lot of things right which is important for a lineup that has so many young guys in it. I'm not so sure that swapping Nash for Czarnick is going to net you more goals at the end of the day.

 

[BruinDust]

Why? What does Vatrano bring to the table besides a shot. I hope he is one of the first ones dealt for some grit. Having a nice shot but no hockey sense or the highly valued speed doesn't make him anything but a healthy scratch when the team is healthy. I like Kuraly's game, he actually has some size and jam to his game.

Vatrano has grit, but you've always been ignorant to his game because I guess if he doesn't drop the gloves, he can't be gritty. And if your not gritty, than you must be soft? Right?

 

[Fenian24]

I know you're a fan of Vatrano I'm not. Nice shot. That's about it. He shows me different I'll shut up about him.

 

[Sheppy]

"Fighting is pretty much out of this league now" ... Since when? Last year fighting was up from the year before. It's definitely gone down, but i wouldn't say it's "rare" to see a fight anymore. There's still fighting and whether people want to believe it or not, intimidation is still there.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

You're going to hit you should learn to fight. I don't want a Matt Cooke or another guy who hits but won't back it up.

When Acciari is running around taking cheap shots, then yeah...He should learn to fight. That kid does nothing but throw clean body checks. You shouldn't have to answer the call after a clean hit.

 

[BruinDust]

I know you're a fan of Vatrano I'm not. Nice shot. That's about it. He shows me different I'll shut up about him.

You don't have to like him. I really don't care if you do or not. I don't think he's the 2nd coming either.

But at least be fair and objective when assessing the player.

 

[NDiesel]

Fighting is pretty much out of this league now. There's the odd dust up, but that's about it. That said, I think having good size up front and guys who can skate and hit hard are very important on a checking line. Kuraly and Acciari are prime candidates for that line in my eye. If they want Schaller there I don't see an issue with that either, it's not like the difference between him and Kuraly is all that great anyways. I don't think they're taking Nash out of the lineup, for as vanilla as the guy is, he's a decent player and does a lot of things right which is important for a lineup that has so many young guys in it. I'm not so sure that swapping Nash for Czarnick is going to net you more goals at the end of the day.

I like Nash. People act like PKers are so replaceable like it is a skill every player is good at. Swap Nash and Czarnik and I guarantee you we aren't 1st in the league on the PK last year. Obviously his big knock is that he probably has the worst shot in the entire league, but for a 4th liner he also has some pretty decent hands and vision.

I really think people underestimate how well liked Nash is by his teammates as well. Everytime I saw him interacting on the bench he and the other player were all smiles.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

You're going to hit you should learn to fight. I don't want a Matt Cooke or another guy who hits but won't back it up.

That’s funny because in the other thread you said Emelin (the King of dirty hits and not fighting) was going to slap the B’s around.

Which is it?

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

That’s funny because in the other thread you said Emelin (the King of dirty hits and not fighting) was going to slap the B’s around.

Which is it?

Clean/Dirty...If you want to hit, you should fight. f*** it, if you get hit, you should fight as well. Everyone should fight.

 

[NDiesel]

Clean/Dirty...If you want to hit, you should fight. **** it, if you get hit, you should fight as well. Everyone should fight.

People here would change their tune if they had ever been in a hockey fight. Hitting a helmet or visor with your hand is not fun. No one wins when you're throwing bombs at each other's helmet. In a league where you have to have skill in addition to your toughness, breaking your hand continually isn't going to help your career.

 

[b in vancouver]

Years ago (probably about 15) a lot of teams tried to go with a lot of youth on their fourth lines - away from conventional wisdom and it really started to look like that was the direction the league was heading, but it never worked out too well for teams. The problem with having 'young' 4th lines and 'skill' 3rd lines for that matter is that generally the top of your line-up has to do all the heavy lifting defensively and on the penalty kill and those are the guys that ideally are putting the puck in the net and more skilled so your losing ground. The other problem is that your defence gets over-worked and exhausted. (this was my argument against Spooner last year as when you can't trust your 3rd or 4th line centres in the d-zone - you're forcing Bergeron or Krejci to do that and stealing prime offensive minutes somewhere in the game). I don't want p.p. specialists on the bottom two lines or someone whom has to get all the juiciest match-ups.

I'm of the mind-set that you should spend a bit more money on the bottom half of your line-up. I don't think the NHL is a development league and that you shouldn't treat your 4th line like that. A tough to play against 4th line tires out the other teams defence, can kill the p.k. and drop the gloves every once in awhile. You can maybe hide one kid that isn't quite ready on those lines but ideally you have professional veteran players whom know their role.

Counter-intuitive but - Overpaying on the bottom half of your roster doesn't bother me as much as over-paying at the top. A bit old-school, but it's a team sport, and depth still wins in this league.

 

[patty59]

"Fighting is pretty much out of this league now" ... Since when? Last year fighting was up from the year before. It's definitely gone down, but i wouldn't say it's "rare" to see a fight anymore. There's still fighting and whether people want to believe it or not, intimidation is still there.

I think it's a good idea to have players on your team with the ability to fight, but there's literally no point to employ a guy who is only good a fighting. I love fights and fighters, but take a look at the league right now, it's changing and the new rules they are coming with are curtailing fighting not making it more prominent. How many fights last year got broken up before they even started?

I do believe in intimidaiton, but I think you can more player are going to make mistakes when worried about getting hit rather than maybe getting beat up. Guys are really all that worried about a guy like Lucic beating them up as much as they are about him putting them through the boards. Acciari can bring that, he hits like a truck and whether he can fight or not isn't important at all.

Plus the Bruin have one of the best fighters in the league in Adam McQuaid.

 

[NDiesel]

Years ago (probably about 15) a lot of teams tried to go with a lot of youth on their fourth lines - away from conventional wisdom and it really started to look like that was the direction the league was heading, but it never worked out too well for teams. The problem with having 'young' 4th lines and 'skill' 3rd lines for that matter is that generally the top of your line-up has to do all the heavy lifting defensively and on the penalty kill and those are the guys that ideally are putting the puck in the net and more skilled so your losing ground. The other problem is that your defence gets over-worked and exhausted. (this was my argument against Spooner last year as when you can't trust your 3rd or 4th line centres in the d-zone - you're forcing Bergeron or Krejci to do that and stealing prime offensive minutes somewhere in the game). I don't want p.p. specialists on the bottom two lines or someone whom has to get all the juiciest match-ups.

I'm of the mind-set that you should spend a bit more money on the bottom half of your line-up. I don't think the NHL is a development league and that you shouldn't treat your 4th line like that. A tough to play against 4th line tires out the other teams defence, can kill the p.k. and drop the gloves every once in awhile. You can maybe hide one kid that isn't quite ready on those lines but ideally you have professional veteran players whom know their role.

Counter-intuitive but - Overpaying on the bottom half of your roster doesn't bother me as much as over-paying at the top. A bit old-school, but it's a team sport, and depth still wins in this league.

Honestly this might be the best argument for having a grinding bottom 6 I've read on here. I think you need to have a good mix of offensive players in the bottom 6 to help create favourable matchups, but also you do need some defensive and grinder types as well to wear out the opposing defense.

 

[Sheppy]

I think it's a good idea to have players on your team with the ability to fight, but there's literally no point to employ a guy who is only good a fighting. I love fights and fighters, but take a look at the league right now, it's changing and the new rules they are coming with are curtailing fighting not making it more prominent. How many fights last year got broken up before they even started?

I do believe in intimidaiton, but I think you can more player are going to make mistakes when worried about getting hit rather than maybe getting beat up. Guys are really all that worried about a guy like Lucic beating them up as much as they are about him putting them through the boards. Acciari can bring that, he hits like a truck and whether he can fight or not isn't important at all.

Plus the Bruin have one of the best fighters in the league in Adam McQuaid.

I understand this and i never once said this. A mix of skill and toughness is what i want on the 4th line. I don't want a Czarnik - Nash - Heinen 4th line. That's all I'm saying.

 

[patty59]

I understand this and i never once said this. A mix of skill and toughness is what i want on the 4th line. I don't want a Czarnik - Nash - Heinen 4th line. That's all I'm saying.

I don't either and I doubt we will see that.

 

[Dr Hook]

Honestly this might be the best argument for having a grinding bottom 6 I've read on here. I think you need to have a good mix of offensive players in the bottom 6 to help create favourable matchups, but also you do need some defensive and grinder types as well to wear out the opposing defense.

It was a great argument and exactly why I have zero problems with Riley Nash. Not much of a grinder, but he works hard and is defensively very strong. Put him with a grinder like Acciari or Schaller, which is what they appear to be doing, and go with some skill at the other wing and you can find that balance.

 

[KnightofBoston]

I think the fourth line should be a bunch of guys that give the 3rd d pairing fits in controlling the puck. How a team accomplishes that is up to them, there are several ways to do it

 

[Don Cherry]

When you say stuff like Acciari is one of Sweeney’s “smurfs”, you lose any credibility you might have had and just sound like a clown.

I don’t think I have ever seen a Smurf who was 5’10”, 210 pounds and jacked? You?

When did a borderline NHLer like Acciari suddenly become the next Bob Probert? He hits, we get it. Exactly what else does he do? -insert chirping crickets here-

 

[Dr Quincy]

I never once said we need a 4th line full of fighters, so people should probably stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying it's more effective to have a guy who can crash and bang, stand up for a teammate, and not be intimidated. I'm saying I'd rather have a 4th line with the likes of a Kuraly, Accairi and a guy like Kassian/Ritchie type there rather than a few welterweights skating around, getting hemmed in their own zone and providing next to nothing other than "hopeful offensive upside".

Acciari - Kuraly - and a Kassian/Ritchie type guy. Despite what people think, they are out there and don't cost a fortune.

I'd like a guy who can go out and fire up a building. Shawn Thornton did it in his first shift during the cup finals, and it wasn't a nice looking outlook pass that fired the place up, it was him crushing someone the moment he stepped on the ice. But yeah, that was like a billion years ago and has zero to do with todays game. That's right.

If having a guy on the 4th line who can hammer someone on a nightly basis is the one reason your team isn't successful, you have bigger issues as whole.

You are presenting a false dichotomy. You are giving ONLY the positives for the guy you want and ONLY the negatives for the guys you don't. Look at the list of guys with the worst possession stats in the league.... you know, the guys with objective proof that they are "hemmed in their own zone" and it's not "welterweights with offensive upside", it's 4th line grinders who "stand up for themselves".

I totally understand a preference for a type of player and the aesthetic that you enjoy watching, but the guys you are asking for don't help you win. .... except for a Ritchie type, and he is far from a 4th line player.

 

[Sheppy]

You are presenting a false dichotomy. You are giving ONLY the positives for the guy you want and ONLY the negatives for the guys you don't. Look at the list of guys with the worst possession stats in the league.... you know, the guys with objective proof that they are "hemmed in their own zone" and it's not "welterweights with offensive upside", it's 4th line grinders who "stand up for themselves".

I totally understand a preference for a type of player and the aesthetic that you enjoy watching, but the guys you are asking for don't help you win. .... except for a Ritchie type, and he is far from a 4th line player.

Yes, maybe Ritchie was a bad example.

I think a Kassian type would fit in well with this team. Guy has some great hands on him despite the label he gets around these parts. He hits like a freight train, he draws penalties, etc. That seems to be the ideal 4th line guy, no? Or are we going to keep saying "THE GAME IS CHANGING" - I get that there's no need for the Colton Orr, Cam Janssen, Trevor Gillies type players who come in, collect 7 shots on goal in 35+ games and register over 100 pims. I get that.

I want a guy who can throw his body around and stand up for himself/teammates while not being a defensive liability. What i don't want to see is a couple of 170 pounders getting punished by a heavier 4th line. Mix in some skill and have a guy who can provide a heavy game and mix it up, that's what I'm saying, that's what I've been saying this whole time. I'm not calling for a Trevor Gillies or a Brian McGrattan here.

Then again, maybe my outlook is different. I've watched this team get pushed around for the past 3 years. I've watched players take liberties without response. I've watched them get out Bruined by teams they used to punish all over the rink. The game may be trending a different way, but as long as i can remember it's always had some sort of physicality to it... and it's something the Bruins have lacked, especially on the 4th line.

Based on what the Bruins have right now, how do you want the 4th line to look?

 

[BruinDust]

Yes, maybe Ritchie was a bad example.

I think a Kassian type would fit in well with this team. Guy has some great hands on him despite the label he gets around these parts. He hits like a freight train, he draws penalties, etc. That seems to be the ideal 4th line guy, no? Or are we going to keep saying "THE GAME IS CHANGING" - I get that there's no need for the Colton Orr, Cam Janssen, Trevor Gillies type players who come in, collect 7 shots on goal in 35+ games and register over 100 pims. I get that.

I want a guy who can throw his body around and stand up for himself/teammates while not being a defensive liability. What i don't want to see is a couple of 170 pounders getting punished by a heavier 4th line. Mix in some skill and have a guy who can provide a heavy game and mix it up, that's what I'm saying, that's what I've been saying this whole time. I'm not calling for a Trevor Gillies or a Brian McGrattan here.

Then again, maybe my outlook is different. I've watched this team get pushed around for the past 3 years. I've watched players take liberties without response. I've watched them get out Bruined by teams they used to punish all over the rink. The game may be trending a different way, but as long as i can remember it's always had some sort of physicality to it... and it's something the Bruins have lacked, especially on the 4th line.

Based on what the Bruins have right now, how do you want the 4th line to look?

Most would agree with you.

But if you bring in a "Kassian-type" on the 4th line, he needs to replace Acciari on that line, not go on his opposite wing.

The other guy still needs to have some offensive pop. If the Kassian-type is in the modern day Shawn Thornton role, the other guy needs to be a Dan Paille.

You still haven't answered the question as to where all these Kassian-like players are and where they could be acquired from.

They aren't that easy to find anymore.

If one could be, for the right price, I doubt many here would complain about it, provided he's used right.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

When did a borderline NHLer like Acciari suddenly become the next Bob Probert? He hits, we get it. Exactly what else does he do? -insert chirping crickets here-

He's good defensively, can kill penalties, and showed some offensive potential (for a 4th liner) at the end of the season and in the playoffs?

When exactly is Brent Hughes going to make a quality post? -insert chirping crickets here-

 

[GloryDaze4877]

When did a borderline NHLer like Acciari suddenly become the next Bob Probert? He hits, we get it. Exactly what else does he do? -insert chirping crickets here-

Never said Acciari was Probert...just that he wasn’t a “smurf”, but thanks for chiming in.

 

[b in vancouver]

Honestly this might be the best argument for having a grinding bottom 6 I've read on here. I think you need to have a good mix of offensive players in the bottom 6 to help create favourable matchups, but also you do need some defensive and grinder types as well to wear out the opposing defense.

Thanks.

It's a long season. 4th and 3rd grinder (veteran - or kids that play like that) lines might not win you every game - but over the course of awhile, if you're not pushing the play, laying the body, forechecking, dropping the gloves, pressuring the other teams d-men - then they're most likely doing it to your team. And I don't want Krejci etc. having to penalty kill all the time.
I definitely want the bottom six to be able to add some offence but truthfully - that's why I would spend a few extra million on those lines and get someone who can.

I'm not against skill. If I take it back a century or so, Kent Nilsson was one of my all time faves. But he was so much better when they brought in Joel Otto.
Krejci's best was unsurprisingly when you had Kelly, Peverley and the Merlot Line as it opened him up to be an offensive player.

Third and fourth lines are simply not playing in a vacuum - they bring energy to their teammates (if you've ever played a sport you'll know how much of a rush you get when someone whom rarely scores or isn't as good as you makes great plays or scores. Especially those players who give it their all - all the time. Often it's more important to you than winning.) and if they can play those heavy minutes - the good players are more rested and will shine.