Team needs to develop culture of accountability summed up well by Jordan Nolan

[Duddy]

Wrong.
You can have a ton of talent but underperform because of a bad cultures and egos.

But we don't have a ton of talent.
That is the whole point. We're not underachieving becaude of some culture problems, we re bad because we lack talent.

 

[Chad Thundercock]

That sounds great, but veterans are more dishonest than rookies. They rarely accept when they're declining, and use the 'hard work' just-world fallacy crap to justify their position over them. What is 'saying something' to a player who makes an obvious mistake supposed to accomplish? That's on coaches and management to put the best product on the ice, which is exactly what veterans are generally against. When veterans like Gionta seriously use terms like 'culture', that's a problem because the veterans assume what they're doing is always correct, and it's not, and you should be called on that nonsense. And when guys like Eichel do that, they're thrown under the bus.

 

[SabresFan26]

But we don't have a ton of talent.
That is the whole point. We're not underachieving becaude of some culture problems, we re bad because we lack talent.

We are probably talented enough if healthy to push for a playoff spot. So yes you’re right that we need more talent but this team isn’t a 5 win team.
Culture trumps schemes

 

[Jame]

But we don't have a ton of talent.
That is the whole point. We're not underachieving becaude of some culture problems, we re bad because we lack talent.

We have as much talent as New jersey

 

[joshjull]

You're getting really one-note with the never played the game stuff, and you'd be wrong.

We were never going to win hockey games under either Bylsma or Housley's deployment structures unless Eichel and O'Reilly were super deluxe awesome. They aren't, we haven't.

Whatever our team culture is, it's less impactful than:

- Being several NHL skaters short of a full lineup on a nightly basis
- Playing what talent we have in high leverage, low return situations
- Employing systems whose biggest beneficiaries are Cody Franson and Zach Bogosian

Letting giant structural problems drag on the roster for years while progressively shifting blame to top talent is how bad culture festers.

I said you never played a competitive team sport. Because anyone who has knows team culture matters. You dismiss it out of hand. This bizarre idea you have that winning makes your team culture better is assbackwards thinking. You seem to be confusing a happy locker room with a strong team culture. Losing or hitting a rough patch reveals the culture, winning hides any issues.

Most us seem capable of walking and chewing gum. We need a better culture and better talent. Yet your trying to set up this false argument we're supposedly making that the only issue with the team is the culture. No one is saying that. Culture matters because having the right one can do things like help young guys like Jack, Sam, Risto, etc learn how to play the right way and hold them accountable when they don't. That helps the team play better now within what they are and down the road as they hopefully grow into a playoff and maybe even contending team. Also having a strong team culture helps when you've become a winning team and are dealing with setbacks. Because the gaps between the top teams isn't huge and your talent argument goes out the window at that point.

I have no idea how you can watch this team or this sport and not realize the impact of a weak team culture where a team collapses mentally at setbacks but other teams can fight though setbacks. Its not all about systems, leveraging etc. Obviously talent matters, like the fact that our defense will be capable of much more with Bogo/Risto back. But that doesn't mean if Jack didn't work hard enough in game it did;t hurt the team's chances or Kane not playing a team game didn't hurt the team's chances. There is truth in the phrases teams need to learn how to win in the this league and winning is hard. Not getting the most out of players due to team culture hurts your ability to win. Thats even more the case when you are dealing with setbacks, like two top dmen out injured.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

You couldn’t be more incorrect. Business and sports are similar in that it starts with culture.
Joshjull has been pretty accurate throughout this thread. Even systems are a part of culture. Maybe the players don’t play the system Housley wants.

Culture can't come before anything, it's literally forged through experience. What comes before the experience is the organization of talent. That's the core flaw with this team.

That people are jumping to lay the culture at the feet of the talent is proof that this is an exclusively results based discussion.

 

[SabresFan26]

Culture can't come before anything, it's literally forged through experience. What comes before the experience is the organization of talent. That's the core flaw with this team.

That people are jumping to lay the culture at the feet of the talent is proof that this is an exclusively results based discussion.

Disagree again. You start with culture and then fill it in with talent.

You start with a vision, you then have standards and values that propel everything that you will do. This builds culture. You put all of your energy in getting this process right and then over time you acquire the right pieces that fit into your culture and you watch it grow. Then you have a program.

If someone doesn’t do things the “Sabre” way or what the desired culture demands, they don’t last.

You can have a good culture but be a bad team, but over time, when you draft and acquire more talent, but also good people who fit your desired culture, that’s when you find success.

This was my biggest problem with Murray

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

A young player is frustrated in a role that literally loses his team the game if he doesn't produce offense while executing all the worst parts of his game at a high level.

Guess our culture sucks, guys.

 

[joshjull]

A young player is frustrated in a role that literally loses his team the game if he doesn't produce offense while executing all the worst parts of his game at a high level.

Guess our culture sucks, guys.

I see we're back to our attempts to sound clever with meaningless phrases. Is the next one 'we need to attack initial actions'? Thats one of my favorites.

 

[SabresFan26]

A young player is frustrated in a role that literally loses his team the game if he doesn't produce offense while executing all the worst parts of his game at a high level.

Guess our culture sucks, guys.

One player isn’t a team nor is a system designed for one player to produce offense. If a better culture existed where everyone is held to the values and standards of being a Sabre, the accountability in the organization would have players work hard and do things the right way.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I see we're back to our attempts to sound clever with meaningless phrases. Is the next one 'we need to attack initial actions'? Thats one of my favorites.

Sorry my resume isn't up to snuff coach. Gotta ask though, why are you here if years of watching and discussing hockey isn't a strong enough resume?

And saying the team needs to decisively attack the puck early in opposing possessions sure was a real dumbass comment in a discussion about how the team was stuck between swarm and passive tendencies in their own zone. You got me there.

 

[Der Jaeger]

So we give the C to the most passiv guy and we piss off Eichel?
You can't strip it off Eichel and leave it on the others. That's just bad, considering the other are just as bad.

What great set of moves.

Of Eichel, Okposo, and ROR, at least the latter two are working hard.

Pominville didn't sound too passive last night.

LOL you want to give the C to the same guy who was on the team when Miller got run over? The guy who was the captain when the team was heartless and gutless, that necessitated the tear down in the first place?

Of all the issues with the pre-tank Sabres, Pominville was the least of them.

A+ reading comprehension.

Brown's cultural impact meant exactly dick when the Kings suddenly found themselves with worse skaters, and the breakup was ugly. He's not a good player anymore, and not having good players is currently a bigger issue than the locker room.

Also, how did I become the "culture doesn't matter" guy when I've repeatedly criticized the decision not to name a captain. Adding further pressure when we're already asking our top six to be a combination of Bergeron and Crosby remains bad.

You're right. The Kings are a worse roster team this season than the past few. But magically they've got a better record. And Kopitar is still the captain. Imagine how that happened.

And Brown is a lot better this season than the last two. Must be all the talent the Kings added.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

One player isn’t a team nor is a system designed for one player to produce offense. If a better culture existed where everyone is held to the values and standards of being a Sabre, the accountability in the organization would have players work hard and do things the right way.

I thought we agreed under Bylsma that demanding execution is pointless if the asks themselves aren't realistic?

 

[Deleted member 27798]

We have as much talent as New jersey

...except in goal.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

We have as much talent as New jersey

The team that force feeds Boyle + Zajac defensive zone starts so it's talent can focus on scoring?

 

[Dubi Doo]

The team is mentally fragile. I think we all knew this. That's the risk toy take when taking. Not only do you have to rebuild the talent of the team, but you also have to rebuild their mentality. It starts with hiring a good coach who can develop talent and build players accountable.

 

[pigpen65]

4A's because there wasn't anyone capable of being captain. Nolan is right.

 

[enthusiast]

Ted Nolan 3.0 incoming

 

[Icicle]

When Pominville was a captain there was already a culture problem in the locker room and he was blamed for not being the guy to fix it. Nobody cared though because they were more happy this team might get a top 5 pick for its first time since it’s creation

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

When Pominville was a captain there was already a culture problem in the locker room and he was blamed for not being the guy to fix it. Nobody cared though because they were more happy this team might get a top 5 pick for its first time since it’s creation

Pominville was in a leadership role from day 1 post-co-captains, this is amazing revisionist history.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Culture can't come before anything, it's literally forged through experience.

Las Vegas. Now STFU.

 

[joshjull]

The team that force feeds Boyle + Zajac defensive zone starts so it's talent can focus on scoring?

You don't get to spin this nonsense.

1) Zone starts in the aggregate have minimal to no impact on production. Because the bulk of shifts (roughly 60%) start on the fly. The other 40% are split between Ozone, neutral zone and Dzone face offs. The NHL average % of shifts started in the Dzone is roughly 10-11%. Though where shift starts can impact that shifts production, it's not something that happens enough relative to total shifts taken to suppress or bump up a players yearly production. Zone starts can inform what role a player is in though. That can certainly infuence their production.

2) Jack already gets a lot of Ozone faceoff usage relative to the team and is in an offensive role. So arguing he is not freed up to focus on offense makes absolutely no sense.

3) ROR is used in our top matchup role. If he can't handle it, then along with his captain potential, we've been sold a bill of goods on him. I mean why are we paying him 7.5mil if not to play the role he is currently in? Are you suggesting we play someone else in that role and use him as basically Roy from the co-captain era? A secondary scoring center. And who should be getting top 6 ice time in his place in that role?

4) then there is the fact Zajac just started playing and Boyle has a only been there for roughly half their games. So no the Devils success is not at all from what you suggest.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Las Vegas. Now ****.

A bunch of people underrated the value of having zero Matt Moulsons in your organization's first 25 skaters and are now crediting magical cultural pixie dust instead of depth.

Shut up.

 

[Royisgone]

Awful player from toxic locker room promoted to authority on winning by thirsty media.

This is the worst take I've ever seen, but you come across like a know-nothing college aged kid, so whatever. So you've watched all the games this year and conclude there is no culture problem? LOL!

Its fixable within the room but would have a better chance of success with an add or two with that in mind.

This team is more like SIX or SEVEN adds away from being really strong/good/consistently competitive, but your point is well taken. They need to be badly broken up with all kinds of new names on the roster.

So in typical Sabre fashion, they need to go find someone from another team to wear letters while the players assembled from within don't rise to the occasion? This is Rivet/Ott/Gionta all over again. They've been playing this song on repeat for almost 10 years.

Yes, the problems that afflict this team currently are identical to the sickening malaise that settled into the team when Lindy Ruff was still the coach, but in his dying days.

The whole thing needs to be dramatically blown up.

And here is what most Sabres fans don't want to hear: Eichel is as much a part of this team's problems as anyone.

He is doing a horrible job of playing the role of "superstar" and "team leader" or "leads by example" or "hardest worker on the team" and all the other things that almost always apply to the very best players in any sport in they are at their peak.

He ain't that guy.

When people start to realize Eichel is more Getzlaf or Spezza, and not Crosby or Yzerman or McDavid or even Auston Matthews, they will begin to understand why this team is struggling so badly. And Eichel is nowhere close to our biggest problem! But he remains a part of the problem.

The push from within the locker room should be coming from Eichel, despite his young age, but it's not. It's not in his makeup. If it was, we would have seen it by now, on a consistent, can't-avoid-basis.

 

[Icicle]

Pominville was in a leadership role from day 1 post-co-captains, this is amazing revisionist history.

And that’s when everything went down hill..