Team needs to develop culture of accountability summed up well by Jordan Nolan

[Der Jaeger]

I have a feeling that one of the things Eichel is personally struggling with - which most super-talented athletes probably do - is the lack of comparable skill and talent on the roster to support him. Dealing Kane would likely add even more pressure and the feeling that Eichel has to "do it all" on a nightly basis if the team is to have any chance of winning a game - something his play now seems to already reflect when he tries to outmaneuver all 5 defenders by himself.

If the Sabres trade away the limited but credible talent they have now (i.e. Kane, O'Reilly, Okposo, Reinhart) as a way of reversing some of Murray's choices in favor of a 'build-through-the-draft' process, I suspect it will prompt more impatience and eventual indifference from Eichel over time. Somehow, and I have no idea how, who or when it can happen, Botterill has to upgrade the talent level around Eichel.

It's a problem GMBOT only needs to deal with for a year. Mittelstadt is coming. Maybe Nylander and Guhle.

 

[Der Jaeger]

So in typical Sabre fashion, they need to go find someone from another team to wear letters while the players assembled from within don't rise to the occasion? This is Rivet/Ott/Gionta all over again. They've been playing this song on repeat for almost 10 years.

It's what Regier did with Drury.

 

[joshjull]

It's what Regier did with Drury.

Murray tried to do it with ROR. He just isn't that type of player

 

[Sabretip]

Said this in th GDT but if there was ever a time to trade Kane, right now is it.

Trading the only player who's been 90% consistent in work ethic, production and spirit would mean we may as well put the white flag up and start looking at next September. His value is no doubt high but replacing him won't be easy - scoring power forwards who can play the speed game Housley wants aren't in abundance out there nor available for anything less than a ransom. The Sabres sure don't have anyone else in the organization remotely close to that type of player.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Murray tried to do it with ROR. He just isn't that type of player

Right, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Drury was the right guy.

Dustin Brown can be that guy as well.

 

[joshjull]

Exactly your best players need to be the best people. Botterill and housley should be investing all of their efforts in making him better on and off the ice.

Part of that with young players is having vets who help them along. Not everyone comes into the league hardwired to be what they need to be

 

[SabresFan26]

Its fixable within the room but would have a better chance of success with an add or two with that in mind.

And if they removed 2-3 pieces

 

[SabresFan26]

Part of that with young players is having vets who help them along. Not everyone comes into the league hardwired to be what they need to be

Exactly.

 

[joshjull]

Right, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Drury was the right guy.

Dustin Brown can be that guy as well.

I didn't say it doesn't work. I would like to see it tried. I'm just pointing out that without ROR being that type we have our two best players in need of mentoring (for lack of a better term). Instead of what would have been the perfect situation of ROR mentoring Jack like Drury did with Briere.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I didn't say it doesn't work. I would like to see it tried. I'm just pointing out that without ROR being that type we have our two best players in need of mentoring (for lack of a better term). Instead of what would have been the perfect situation of ROR mentoring Jack like Drury did with Briere.

ROR is a lead-by-example guy. The team needs more vocal locker room leadership. I think that's what the team needs.

Trade for Brown and MAF, move Kane. C to Brown. A's to ROR, Pominville.

 

[SabresFan26]

Trading the only player who's been 90% consistent in work ethic, production and spirit would mean we may as well put the white flag up and start looking at next September. His value is no doubt high but replacing him won't be easy - scoring power forwards who can play the speed game Housley wants aren't in abundance out there nor available for anything less than a ransom. The Sabres sure don't have anyone else in the organization remotely close to that type of player.

With 5 wins through 20 something games, the season is over. I don’t care how talented a player is, if it helps the locker room and you make other talented players better, you do what’s best for the team.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Pretty sure Nolan's principle agenda here is wanting to win. Everybody on this board has seen this season that so far, there's really minimal accountability on this team. Injuries haven't helped but it's apparent to me that Phil only sits those players who are marginal performers and that he allows the "talent" guys a lot more room to work it out by themselves. It doesn't help when the head coach tells us the problem is players not following the game plan for 60 minutes but doesn't do anything to make sure that doesn't happen next time.....

 

[Sabretip]

Murray tried to do it with ROR. He just isn't that type of player

I disagree. Drury was known for leading by example and for an unwavering work ethic off and on the ice. He was by his own admission not a vocal leader in the room - people just respected him by watching his habits. From everything that I've read about O'Reilly, he operates in the same way. His after-practice sessions are well documented and even were reported as inspiring teammates in the beginning and he certainly doesn't take shifts off during games. Critics can point to his average skating ability and his production relative to his salary as "issues" but he's low on the barometer of what ails this team IMO.

I do think there's some clues in how Drury became more effective when he had an equal like Briere who was a different type of personality - that tandem seemed to feed off each other and create an influence through the rest of the locker room. I had hoped that Eichel and O'Reilly could have worked in a similar manner but I'm not sure Eichel is ready yet to really be a leader in that way yet.

 

[Chainshot]

It's what Regier did with Drury.

He did it after Quinn got the recommendation from Neil Smith over dinner and pushed him toward it. Not sure who that is out there who can actually be had.

 

[joshjull]

ROR is a lead-by-example guy. The team needs more vocal locker room leadership. I think that's what the team needs.

Trade for Brown and MAF, move Kane. C to Brown. A's to ROR, Pominville.

Sort of. He works hard on his game which is a good example but leading by example is also not shutting down when things get tough. ROR by his own admission does that. Thats not a good thing because you are starting to see his 'woe is me' post game comments being parroted by Jack.

 

[Sabretip]

Pretty sure Nolan's principle agenda here is wanting to win. Everybody on this board has seen this season that so far, there's really minimal accountability on this team. Injuries haven't helped but it's apparent to me that Phil only sits those players who are marginal performers and that he allows the "talent" guys a lot more room to work it out by themselves. It doesn't help when the head coach tells us the problem is players not following the game plan for 60 minutes but doesn't do anything to make sure that doesn't happen next time.....

Valid point - it has added to the overall frustration to hear Housley's reflections that strain to emphasize positives while ignoring realities but I chalk that up in part to human nature that he's "the new guy on the block" and doesn't have a lot of street credibility in terms of HC experience.

 

[Chainshot]

ROR is a lead-by-example guy. The team needs more vocal locker room leadership. I think that's what the team needs.

Trade for Brown and MAF, move Kane. C to Brown. A's to ROR, Pominville.

They need people who will stand up and say "we need you and you and you (and even me) to be better" when it is needed. This is where Botterill needs to use his old Pens connections to turn up people who can do that and bring them into the lineup.

As to the point of Kane's effort, isn't the long-shift and poor shot comment indicative of what is wrong with Kane's game every night? He has the physical tools but is the dedication to win actually there? We've never seen it, it wasn't there in Winnipeg or Atlanta. Is he willing to do what it takes to WIN or is he willing to continue to do things that make him feel good but don't contribute to W's?

 

[Endless Ike]

Trading the only player who's been 90% consistent in work ethic, production and spirit would mean we may as well put the white flag up and start looking at next September. His value is no doubt high but replacing him won't be easy - scoring power forwards who can play the speed game Housley wants aren't in abundance out there nor available for anything less than a ransom. The Sabres sure don't have anyone else in the organization remotely close to that type of player.

The white flag is waiving...

 

[joshjull]

I disagree. Drury was known for leading by example and for an unwavering work ethic off and on the ice. He was by his own admission not a vocal leader in the room - people just respected him by watching his habits. From everything that I've read about O'Reilly, he operates in the same way. His after-practice sessions are well documented and even were reported as inspiring teammates in the beginning and he certainly doesn't take shifts off during games. Critics can point to his average skating ability and his production relative to his salary as "issues" but he's low on the barometer of what ails this team IMO.

I do think there's some clues in how Drury became more effective when he had an equal like Briere who was a different type of personality - that tandem seemed to feed off each other and create an influence through the rest of the locker room. I had hoped that Eichel and O'Reilly could have worked in a similar manner but I'm not sure Eichel is ready yet to really be a leader in that way yet.

First lets stop with the mythologizing of his practices. I've watched two of them. Its stick handling gimmicks and shots from crazy angles. Its not some boot camp or a practice of anything of a practical nature. An example would be he sets up 4 pucks close together, stick handles standing still around the 4 pucks then passes to someone to shoot the puck. Each player takes a turn. Rinse repeated 5 of 6 different versions of that. Many don't even partake of those drills and work on the other side of the ice on things they need to improve, like face-offs and ROR isn't a part of that. And they are out there of their own choice not because ROR is out there.

The following is the issue with ROR as a leader. Drury would hold guys accountable when needed. ROR is too busy self flagellating. I don't remember Drury ever shutting down when things get tough like ROR can.

Ryan O'Reilly:
On the same old song and dance: "Couple mistakes early, I myself made a mistake early. Gave up a goal. It's unacceptable. I'm very disappointed in myself. I don't think I was there tonight. We have to stick together. Couple goals happen, we just fall apart. It's my job to do a lot better, and keep guys together."
Full audio: 11-22 Ryan O'Reilly Post-Game

Listening to the full audio at the roughly 1:56 mark.........

"When I'm playing bad I tend to shut down and focus on my own game. You know we're in this together, We're one team and need to help each other out. Even if I'm not my best I still have to push someone else to be their best and he has to push me to be my best. Gotta be better, thats the final straw."

We badly need some leadership brought in. I actually think it would be good for ROR so he doesn't have to worry about it. He would also get the push he needs at times so he doesn't shut down. As opposed to him worrying about trying to not shut down and push his teammates.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

They need people who will stand up and say "we need you and you and you (and even me) to be better" when it is needed. This is where Botterill needs to use his old Pens connections to turn up people who can do that and bring them into the lineup.

As to the point of Kane's effort, isn't the long-shift and poor shot comment indicative of what is wrong with Kane's game every night? He has the physical tools but is the dedication to win actually there? We've never seen it, it wasn't there in Winnipeg or Atlanta. Is he willing to do what it takes to WIN or is he willing to continue to do things that make him feel good but don't contribute to W's?

You mean that perhaps Kane is mainly playing for his next contract?

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

@struckbyaparkedcar

Why are you resistant to the idea that the culture needs to change?

Because I think every professional locker room will eventually be reduced to chaos and the only governor is team success. Our culture sucks largely because we aren't winning, not the other way around.

Eichel and O'Reilly aren't good enough to win the most difficult minutes available to the team, and there isn't the talent elsewhere on the roster to win in the space that setup creates. We assumed this going into the first season of this core and it's been confirmed through two coaches. Either add talent or hire a coach who understands his only option is wringing every bit of success out of the top two centers.

 

[Der Jaeger]

He did it after Quinn got the recommendation from Neil Smith over dinner and pushed him toward it. Not sure who that is out there who can actually be had.

GMBOT is well connected so he can figure it out. I sense folks didn't like talking to Regier because of his over valuing of his own players.

Sort of. He works hard on his game which is a good example but leading by example is also not shutting down when things get tough. ROR by his own admission does that. Thats not a good thing because you are starting to see his 'woe is me' post game comments being parroted by Jack.

Which is why they all need someone like Dustin Brown and MAF.

They need people who will stand up and say "we need you and you and you (and even me) to be better" when it is needed. This is where Botterill needs to use his old Pens connections to turn up people who can do that and bring them into the lineup.

As to the point of Kane's effort, isn't the long-shift and poor shot comment indicative of what is wrong with Kane's game every night? He has the physical tools but is the dedication to win actually there? We've never seen it, it wasn't there in Winnipeg or Atlanta. Is he willing to do what it takes to WIN or is he willing to continue to do things that make him feel good but don't contribute to W's?

See above.

If the locker room is starting to gravitate to Kane, GMBOT needs to move him right now.

 

[Chainshot]

You mean that perhaps Kane is mainly playing for his next contract?

There is a lot made of effort in WNY, as though looking like one is working hard means one is effective/good/worthwhile vs. doing what is right to actually be good, particularly at hockey. Churning knees and pumping elbows is all fine and well and good, but how is taking longer shifts buying into team concepts? How is winging low-quality shots at the net buying into a team concepts (granted, I'm not sure what they're trying to implement for forecheck on line changes, but anyway...)? Partying and having a good time off the ice is fine, if a guy shows up to put in the work to actually do what is required to win.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Because I think every professional locker room will eventually be reduced to chaos and the only governor is team success. Our culture sucks largely because we aren't winning, not the other way around.

Eichel and O'Reilly aren't good enough to win the most difficult minutes available to the team, and there isn't the talent elsewhere on the roster to win in the space that setup creates. We assumed this going into the first season of this core and it's been confirmed through two coaches. Either add talent or hire a coach who understands his only option is wringing every bit of success out of the top two centers.

Read the book "Blackhearts." You'll see that even with talent (or capability in the book's story), culture and narrative matters. It can drive winning just as much as talent.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

How about instead of trading for toxic assets who captained a criminal locker room that got their whole management team canned we add actual good players?