Speculation: Tavares Tells Toronto, "I'm YOUR Huckleberry Now". Fans leaguewide mourn.

[Majorityof1]

Unless he straight up tells them that he is for sure not re-signing or states that he will definitely wait until July 1 to sign so he can hear exactly what every teams deal is, they are giving up one of their biggest leverages to sign him, that 8th year. That's the ability to offer him an extra 10.5-12.5 million more than any other team. Even if he is seriously considering leaving, that is a giant enticement in itself.

Without JT telling NYI he is for sure leaving, the only way I see us being able to trade for his rights is after that negotiation period has already started, we believe our pitch has gone a long way in swaying his decision, and he then tells NYI that he isn't coming back. At that point may we try to trade for them in hopes that it seals the deal for JT and he is willing to sign. Of course at this time it is a huge gamble for us due to him being able to listen to other teams and we could lose our on both JT and the assets we traded for.

Now if he has already told NYI that he isn't coming back, then I would definitely trade those 2 2nds in order to get the jump on the negotiation window.

NYI loses the right to sign him for 8 years the second he hits UFA (so July 1). If he is dead set on waiting until July 1, they have basically already lost that ability. Granted, he could enter the negotiation period to see what other teams pitch him and sign for 8 years with NYI on June 30th. So there is some value in keeping him until then. I just can't see him waiting this long and signing before he can hear actual financial offers (I don't think you can talk specific numbers before July 1 but the whole negotiation period is kind of fuzzy). He can probably figure out what teams will pitch him. The only question is what $$ figure.

 

[Stealth JD]

I'm so happy I'm not a Sens fan.

It's insane to me that they would be willing to drastically reduce the return for Karlsson in order to get rid of Bobby Ryan. If they move both in the same deal, then they will be about $8 mil below this years cap floor (and likely $10+ mil below the floor for next year) with only 6 roster spots to fill. Ryan's contract is horrible, but they aren't going to be anywhere close to the cap if they trade EK and Ryan this summer. Moving Ryan is about saving the owner money and has nothing to do with the on-ice product.

That would be as bad as moving Pronger for Brewer, but at least our owner was on his way out.

You haven't even mentioned the horrors that may await Ottawa if someone (Avs fans floated the idea) offer-sheets Stone for 1-yr, $8M. He'd be UFA at the end of the term and owed HUGE money, or they'd have to let him walk for a 1st, 2nd & 3rd. It's a thread on the Trade/Free Agency forum.

 

[Majorityof1]

You haven't even mentioned the horrors that may await Ottawa if someone (Avs fans floated the idea) offer-sheets Stone for 1-yr, $8M. He'd be UFA at the end of the term and owed HUGE money, or they'd have to let him walk for a 1st, 2nd & 3rd. It's a thread on the Trade/Free Agency forum.

Is someone going to pay a 1st, 2nd and 3rd plus face the backlash that could come their way for one year of Stone, and to screw with Ottawa?

 

[BlueDream]

I have no clue what Ottawa is even doing. I feel like they're just in between rebuilding and not wanting to rebuild. Some guys are available, other guys they're trying to hold onto... Karlsson would be crazy to re-up there.

 

[Stealth JD]

Is someone going to pay a 1st, 2nd and 3rd plus face the backlash that could come their way for one year of Stone, and to screw with Ottawa?

It's a really unique situation with the Avs already owning Ottawa's 2019 1st rounder, which is likely going to be really high. They may have no problem losing their own 1st rounder to poach the Sens best forward. Here's an interesting post from that thread:

Actually you need to go over 10.148 million to reach the 4 1st’s. Regardless, the 1 year OS wouldn’t be the problem, it would be the 8 year UFA contract based off of a 85ish million dollar cap that would cripple Ottawa. That’s why the Avs would only go to the 8.1 million dollar OS, since it only costs a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd.

As for why it means EK is gone. EK is going to require about an 8 year 88 million dollar contract, if the OS works, Stone could be looking at 8 years 80 million like I originally projected. You also need to sign Duchene to an approximate 8 year 64 million dollar contract this summer. You also have Ryan needing 30 million dollars over the next 4 years. That’s a combined 262 million dollars that Melnyk would have to pay on 4 players over the next 8 years. Does that sound like something Melnyk is going to do to you?

Losing Stone for nothing would be a detriment, but you would only lose a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd. I would assume Colorado would re-sign him since they have an insane amount of cap space and an owner that has said they can spend as they please. This also has the value of weakening Ottawa, which raises the value of the 2019 1st. I would do it personally and offer him a big UFA contract in a year, if he refuses to sign it wouldn’t be crippling since Colorado already has an additional 2019 1st (Ottawa’s), an additional 2018 2nd (Nashville’s) and an additional 2019 3rd (Ottawa’s). Even if he walks at the end of the year Colorado would still have an ordinary number of draft picks.

 

[Brian39]

NYI loses the right to sign him for 8 years the second he hits UFA (so July 1). If he is dead set on waiting until July 1, they have basically already lost that ability. Granted, he could enter the negotiation period to see what other teams pitch him and sign for 8 years with NYI on June 30th. So there is some value in keeping him until then. I just can't see him waiting this long and signing before he can hear actual financial offers (I don't think you can talk specific numbers before July 1 but the whole negotiation period is kind of fuzzy). He can probably figure out what teams will pitch him. The only question is what $$ figure.

Terms are absolutely discussed. This is what the league has forbidden:

"But Clubs may not enter into any agreements, or make any binding offers, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, express or implied, oral or written, concerning the terms of a potential SPC with another Club’s pending RFA or UFA.”

Every word in that list (offers, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind) is modified by the word 'binding' that precedes it. If the NHL wanted to prohibit teams from discussing contract terms, that is a simple instruction. Instead, they paid a lawyer a ton of money to write a sentence and that sentence is constructed in a way that only prohibits teams from doing these things if they are binding. This sentence ensures that either side is free to walk away from anything discussed during the meeting, not to discourage frank discussions in the meeting.

Any half-competent lawyer would have a field day if the NHL tried to ding a team for simply discussing non-binding terms. A 2L law student in a contract drafting class would get very few (if any points) on an exam if that was the sentence they constructed to prevent the discussion of dollars/term in a negotiation.

 

[Majorityof1]

It's a really unique situation with the Avs already owning Ottawa's 2019 1st rounder, which is likely going to be really high. They may have no problem losing their own 1st rounder to poach the Sens best forward. Here's an interesting post from that thread:

That doesn't really address why the signing team does it. I guess if Stone is in on it and they agree to sign 1 year and then immediately extend for 7 years it makes sense. Otherwise, the offering team is in the same boat as Ottawa would have been with Stone hitting free agency at a young age and primed for a huge deal on the open market. But that has to be tampering to discuss a 7 year extension before you sign the 1 year deal. It also doesn't explain why Stone would do it. Would you risk a 7x$7M+ deal for an extra million and the chance to maybe cash in after? I guess if you really want out of Ottawa, but that is risking $40M+ on not being injured.

Anyway, this is the Tavares thread, so probably not the place for that discussion. Certain people are stickler's for not straying off topic and only want us to talk Tavares here...ironically, the same people don't want us to talk Tavares at all. So anyway...Tavares....yea, he's pretty good. We should think about maybe signing him if possible. Thoughts?

 

[Majorityof1]

Terms are absolutely discussed. This is what the league has forbidden:

"But Clubs may not enter into any agreements, or make any binding offers, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, express or implied, oral or written, concerning the terms of a potential SPC with another Club’s pending RFA or UFA.”

Every word in that list (offers, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind) is modified by the word 'binding' that precedes it. If the NHL wanted to prohibit teams from discussing contract terms, that is a simple instruction. Instead, they paid a lawyer a ton of money to write a sentence and that sentence is constructed in a way that only prohibits teams from doing these things if they are binding. This sentence ensures that either side is free to walk away from anything discussed during the meeting, not to discourage frank discussions in the meeting.

Any half-competent lawyer would have a field day if the NHL tried to ding a team for simply discussing non-binding terms. A 2L law student in a contract drafting class would get very few (if any points) on an exam if that was the sentence they constructed to prevent the discussion of dollars/term in a negotiation.

Thank you for pulling the language. I haven't read that particular section of the CBA. I would agree that is the most likely interpretation of the provision. I don't think its 100% clear on its face. By common language, a leading adjective doesn't necessarily apply to every term in a list. "I like spicy mustard, mayonnaise or ketchup on my burgers." Is the Mayo spicy? Anyway, I think your reading is probably right reading the document as a whole but...Ok, I'll stop there. I am having the weirdest sense of Deja Vu like we have discussed this exact thing before. So maybe I have seen that provision. Bottom line, I agree with your interpretation and thanks for pointing it out.

 

[WeWentBlues]

That doesn't really address why the signing team does it. I guess if Stone is in on it and they agree to sign 1 year and then immediately extend for 7 years it makes sense. Otherwise, the offering team is in the same boat as Ottawa would have been with Stone hitting free agency at a young age and primed for a huge deal on the open market. But that has to be tampering to discuss a 7 year extension before you sign the 1 year deal. It also doesn't explain why Stone would do it. Would you risk a 7x$7M+ deal for an extra million and the chance to maybe cash in after? I guess if you really want out of Ottawa, but that is risking $40M+ on not being injured.

Anyway, this is the Tavares thread, so probably not the place for that discussion. Certain people are stickler's for not straying off topic and only want us to talk Tavares here...ironically, the same people don't want us to talk Tavares at all. So anyway...Tavares....yea, he's pretty good. We should think about maybe signing him if possible. Thoughts?

Colorado offer sheeting Stone is pure evil genius. And there really shouldn't be any fear of retribution from Melnyk. We've seen poison pill contracts used in sports before. With Colorado owning Ottawa's first, Colorado can improve both their team for 2018-2019 by signing Stone and improving their 2019 draft position by weakening Ottawa. Could end up with a top 3 pick and resigning Stone.

Tavares

 

[TruBlu]

Colorado offer sheeting Stone is pure evil genius. And there really shouldn't be any fear of retribution from Melnyk. We've seen poison pill contracts used in sports before. With Colorado owning Ottawa's first, Colorado can improve both their team for 2018-2019 by signing Stone and improving their 2019 draft position by weakening Ottawa. Could end up with a top 3 pick and resigning Stone.

Tavares

I see what you did there.

 

[Brian39]

Thank you for pulling the language. I haven't read that particular section of the CBA. I would agree that is the most likely interpretation of the provision. I don't think its 100% clear on its face. By common language, a leading adjective doesn't necessarily apply to every term in a list. "I like spicy mustard, mayonnaise or ketchup on my burgers." Is the Mayo spicy? Anyway, I think your reading is probably right reading the document as a whole but...Ok, I'll stop there. I am having the weirdest sense of Deja Vu like we have discussed this exact thing before. So maybe I have seen that provision. Bottom line, I agree with your interpretation and thanks for pointing it out.

I've definitely had this discussion on this forum. I'm not sure if it was with you directly or someone else, but I've posted this language and interpreted it before.

The frustrating thing is that this language isn't in the CBA. Agents and teams voiced frustration that they were confused about what they could and couldn't discuss during this window and the NHL put that language in a clarifying memo. That's the main reason I think the language supports my interpretation so clearly. No reasonable attorney would respond to requests for clarity and draft that abomination of a sentence if the goal was to just ban the discussion of money.

If the NHL dinged a team for talking terms, the team would be able to counter that they had every chance to be clear and they weren't. Even if the NHL tried to argue that their statement could be interpreted to only tie the 'binding' language to the first term, the team would counter that numerous people made efforts to get clarity and the NHL was intentionally vague. Combine that with the fact that every year sees a ton of multi-million dollar deals signed within minutes of the opening of free agency and I don't see any way the NHL could argue that it's unreasonable for a team to interpret their language to allow the discussion of terms.

But hey, the NHL has decided that they want to handle all of their negotiations with take-it-or-leave-it-scorched-earth tactics and an insistence on delaying negotiations until the last second. Crazy to think that the resulting CBA written almost entirely at the 11th hour would be unclear and incomplete.

 

[BlueDream]

Sources have told me a couple things over the past 2 hours...

Tavares and Hoffman were talking and Hoffman was encouraging him to go to California. Now after today's news, he is totally put off by Hoffman and the entire state of California.

Tavares also saw pictures of the arch on Google and absolutely loved it.

Chances of him signing in STL have risen from 95% to 99% now.

I'll post more if I hear anything else.

 

[Brian39]

That doesn't really address why the signing team does it. I guess if Stone is in on it and they agree to sign 1 year and then immediately extend for 7 years it makes sense. Otherwise, the offering team is in the same boat as Ottawa would have been with Stone hitting free agency at a young age and primed for a huge deal on the open market. But that has to be tampering to discuss a 7 year extension before you sign the 1 year deal. It also doesn't explain why Stone would do it. Would you risk a 7x$7M+ deal for an extra million and the chance to maybe cash in after? I guess if you really want out of Ottawa, but that is risking $40M+ on not being injured.

Anyway, this is the Tavares thread, so probably not the place for that discussion. Certain people are stickler's for not straying off topic and only want us to talk Tavares here...ironically, the same people don't want us to talk Tavares at all. So anyway...Tavares....yea, he's pretty good. We should think about maybe signing him if possible. Thoughts?

I think this type of discussion is at least tangentially related to the Tavares mystery. Colorado will likely make a bid for Tavares and they have the cap space to make a competitive offer. A malicious offer sheet to Stone would likely put them out of the running, which is good for the Blues.

I'm not sure a 1 year offer sheet makes sense, but I could see a 5 or 6 year offer sheet that is fair to the player and keeps the compensation in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd range. A 6 year deal with an AAV of $6.75 mil would keep the compensation in that range or a 5 year deal with an AAV of up to $8.1 mil keeps it in that range. I'm not sure I see Ottawa beating either of those offers by all that much. Even if Ottawa is willing to go a full 8 years at $7.5 mil per year, Stone would be leaving $20 mil on the table on the table to sign a $40 mil deal with Colorado. However, I don't think Ottawa will go that high and I certainly don't think they'll structure it with a lot of signing bonuses for lockout protection. A full year lockout and lower tax rate in the US suddenly makes the real dollars a lot closer before you even factor in the fact that he would hit UFA a couple years sooner. He'd be leaving money on the table, but it's close enough that he might see it as worth it to get the hell out of Ottawa. I'd be desperately trying to get off that sinking ship if I were a 26 year old coming off a career year.

 

[David Dennison]

Sources have told me a couple things over the past 2 hours...

Tavares and Hoffman were talking and Hoffman was encouraging him to go to California. Now after today's news, he is totally put off by Hoffman and the entire state of California.

Tavares also saw pictures of the arch on Google and absolutely loved it.

Chances of him signing in STL have risen from 95% to 99% now.

I'll post more if I hear anything else.

Word is he has been house shopping in the Chesterfield Valley. 'Great price per square foot' a source cited, as well as Tavares' well known desire to live closely to a car vending machine and multiple outlet malls.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

Sources have told me a couple things over the past 2 hours...

Tavares and Hoffman were talking and Hoffman was encouraging him to go to California. Now after today's news, he is totally put off by Hoffman and the entire state of California.

Tavares also saw pictures of the arch on Google and absolutely loved it.

Chances of him signing in STL have risen from 95% to 99% now.

I'll post more if I hear anything else.

I'm also hearing from a couple reliable sources that the Blues have purchased an entire day's worth of Arch ride passes so that they can give Tavares their presentation at the top of the Arch.

 

[KirkOut]

for real though the blues fan pessimist in me is not getting too excited. too many other teams in the mix.

 

[TruBlu]

I just want to throw out there that I've never been a professional sports player, but I can certainly imagine that it is probably like any of us contemplating a job move. Tavares most likely has a list of places he will go to, as well as, some places that just aren't an option for him. Money might move the meter to a degree, but I'd personally put the preference to location over money. If I was offered 10 mil a year in florida and 12 mil a year in Alaska, I'd be moving to Florida the next day.

 

[Celtic Note]

I just want to throw out there that I've never been a professional sports player, but I can certainly imagine that it is probably like any of us contemplating a job move. Tavares most likely has a list of places he will go to, as well as, some places that just aren't an option for him. Money might move the meter to a degree, but I'd personally put the preference to location over money. If I was offered 10 mil a year in florida and 12 mil a year in Alaska, I'd be moving to Florida the next day.

If Alaska and Florida were my options, I might just stay where I was.

 

[Dbrownss]

for real though the blues fan pessimist in me is not getting too excited. too many other teams in the mix.

My enthusiasm is waning......were 2 and a half weeks out from another Blues disappointment, and they're not even playing. As you said, just too many players in the game.

 

[TK 421]

My enthusiasm is waning......were 2 and a half weeks out from another Blues disappointment, and they're not even playing. As you said, just too many players in the game.

Don't give up hope now. We're only a few weeks from finding out the end of this intriguing story and according to many Islanders fans the Blues are the perfect fit for JT. They have been saying it for a long time now and recent click baity articles don't trump well reasoned logic. I just perused the Tavares thread and the calm and seemingly reasonable types over there think he's coming here. These aren't biased homers looking for a narrative that fits, these are people extremely sad to see their franchise center about to leave moving on to where he might go and they're saying it's going to be St.Louis. I'm keeping this dream alive until there's no chance.

 

[TK 421]

The summer..... When winning is possible.

 

[Dbrownss]

Don't give up hope now. We're only a few weeks from finding out the end of this intriguing story and according to many Islanders fans the Blues are the perfect fit for JT. They have been saying it for a long time now and recent click baity articles don't trump well reasoned logic. I just perused the Tavares thread and the calm and seemingly reasonable types over there think he's coming here. These aren't biased homers looking for a narrative that fits, these are people extremely sad to see their franchise center about to leave moving on to where he might go and they're saying it's going to be St.Louis. I'm keeping this dream alive until there's no chance.

Its a too good to be true situation .

With that said, I stumbled across Thomas highlights and thought..."yea, he's all ours". So there's always hope.


The staple article citing Toronto and LA was kind of a kick to the balls. LA? That's out of left field

 

[ort]

We're Blues fans. We're hard wired to always expect the worst. It's all we've ever known.

 

[Dbrownss]

Arthur Staple was on NHL radio and talked about his piece in the Athletic. Apparently it was last it was said Toronto and LA were preffered destinations. Doesn't mean much either way but maybe now that it's a real situation in 2 weeks, he may be swayed by other teams. I still think the Blues can get closest to what the Islanders can offer without having move guys if money is a decisive factor. Petro better be putting in work for his team.

I'd think with those personal connections through Pietrangelo, DA will have an idea if JT is open to St. Louis

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

We're Blues fans. We're hard wired to always expect the worst. It's all we've ever known.

I get what you’re saying but....

We did get Gretzky that one time