T: Flames no longer Pursuing new Arena

[MessierII]

Hopefully it's just posturing and they figure it out

 

[McShogun99]

Northlands Arena is 15 years older then the Saddledome. It's still a viable arena. In 10 years they should look into this again.

We didn't need a new arena in Edmonton but we needed to revitalize downtown. The new arena is doing that.

 

[McSuper]

I wonder has anyone ever done a study to figure out how much extra cash an NHL team puts into the economy .

There the taxes it creates
The Players make million and that gets spent in the communities
Players also has higher living standers that most so there property taxes and such for their million + dollar homes are much higher .
Then there people that go out to sport bars to watch the home team
Employment in the arenas and the spin offs that creates
Jersey sales in the sport stores .
Transportation to games .

I am sure there many other things I am missing . The point is for the government to invest 100s of millions they need a proper study done on the effects and cash generated from a team . A Government should not just say no base on public opinion . They need to have a feasibility study done and make an inform decision .

They sure as hell done mind handing out contracts to their friend or taking a raise for themselves . Just make an inform decision for once

 

[oobga]

I wonder has anyone ever done a study to figure out how much extra cash an NHL team puts into the economy .

There the taxes it creates
The Players make million and that gets spent in the communities
Players also has higher living standers that most so there property taxes and such for their million + dollar homes are much higher .
Then there people that go out to sport bars to watch the home team
Employment in the arenas and the spin offs that creates
Jersey sales in the sport stores .
Transportation to games .

I am sure there many other things I am missing . The point is for the government to invest 100s of millions they need a proper study done on the effects and cash generated from a team . A Government should not just say no base on public opinion . They need to have a feasibility study done and make an inform decision .

They sure as hell done mind handing out contracts to their friend or taking a raise for themselves . Just make an inform decision for once

I'm sure there are calculations of only the money put in. I've seen this cited many times by Burke and others recently. But, does it look at where that money comes from and if it would just be spent somewhere else in the same economy? Say local residents did spend 100M on flames stuff, tickets/merchandise. Could that money have only been spend on flames stuff? Does it evaporate without a sports team around? Or would it still have been mostly spent locally on other things? How much tourism and out of province, or even out of city/area money does a local NHL team really attract?

Not trying to say a sports team is worthless, just honestly curious of this kind of calculation as well.

 

[Soundwave]

Northlands Arena is 15 years older then the Saddledome. It's still a viable arena. In 10 years they should look into this again.

We didn't need a new arena in Edmonton but we needed to revitalize downtown. The new arena is doing that.

I agree. The Saddledome is still quite functional, the main thing I think it needs is new seats installed and renos to the washrooms.

In terms of location, it's basically right on their downtown core and on the Stampede grounds, so location wise for Calgary you can't really do better than that.

In any case the Oilers are fortunate they got their arena built before this downturn kicked in.

 

[oobga]

I agree. The Saddledome is still quite functional, the main thing I think it needs is need seats installed and renos to the washrooms.

In terms of location, it's basically right on their downtown core and on the Stampede grounds, so location wise for Calgary you can't really do better than that.

But Bettman just said it's an unacceptable dump not at all up to the standards of the NHL.

Or did I hear him wrong and he was just talking about the flames team itself?

 

[Soundwave]

But Bettman just said it's an unacceptable dump not at all up to the standards of the NHL.

Or did I hear him wrong and he was just talking about the flames team itself?

I got comped tickets last year to a game late in the season, and really, honestly while a bit dated and not quite as fancy schmancy as some of the newer arenas ... it's still a very decent barn to watch a hockey game at.

The location is pretty much ideal as you can get for Calgary, the ice seems decent still too (unlike Rexall), the sight lines are ok unless you're in the nose bleeds.

 

[drewshoo]

I got comped tickets last year to a game late in the season, and really, honestly while a bit dated and not quite as fancy schmancy as some of the newer arenas ... it's still a very decent barn to watch a hockey game at.

The location is pretty much ideal as you can get for Calgary, the ice seems decent still too (unlike Rexall), the sight lines are ok unless you're in the nose bleeds.

The issue is it doesn't have new money making capability. Small lower bowl, no second row of suites, no premium seating options also the roof, while iconic, creates more than a few issues.

 

[shoop]

I am sure there many other things I am missing . The point is for the government to invest 100s of millions they need a proper study done on the effects and cash generated from a team . A Government should not just say no base on public opinion . They need to have a feasibility study done and make an inform decision.

They sure as hell done mind handing out contracts to their friend or taking a raise for themselves . Just make an inform decision for once

Of course there was a feasiblity analysis on Calgary Next. Look what the Google machine uncovered.

One of the best things about Rogers is the government put in very little tax money that they would have gotten elsewhere. CRL is a new tax that the city would have had an incredibly tough time, if not impossible time, getting passed without the rink. It's being paid by all the businesses in the area profiting from the rink. Ticket surcharge is obviously directly tied to the rink. I liked re-assigning money that was going to Northlands.

There was about $25 million that went into Rogers in government money from the feds and the province. That's a pretty reasonable use of tax dollars. In comparison, the new museum cost $375 million and that was all from the feds and the province. Sports fans are taxpayers too.

It's a bad time to try and build a rink in Calgary with oil prices in the crapper still, Nenshi as mayor and Notley as premier. Times change though. By 2020 it's likely that both jobs will be filled by other people and oil could be above $50/bbl again.

I have zero concerns about the Flames moving to Seattle. The league wants a 32nd team. Seattle is a perfect location for it. If Calgary moves to Seattle where would the 16th team in the Western conference go?

 

[Da McBomb]

Not to mention the Saddledome already holds 19,000 seats compared to ~16,000 at Northlands. With this downturn in the economy right now.. the Flames might have to buckle up and wait a while if they're looking for significant Government money. But I'm sure they'll work a deal out sooner than later though. In Edmonton, there was a need for a downtown arena and rejuvenation here. In calgary, there are half empty office towers right now.. a signal of this worsened economy. The Flames are just looking for a sweet deal here similar to the Oilers. But they're different situations. I hope they work things out though.

All I remember was being pretty pissed off, angry, and kinda sad that day when Katz, Lowe and Gretzky were seen visiting Seattle along with the subtle threats of leaving Edmonton. I didn't believe it would happen.. but I just felt hurt as a fan of a team that I followed for so long. So I can relate to how Flame fans are feeling about all of this. I love the BOA rivalry. It makes hockey a lot more fun to follow. I've hated the Flames with passion since I was a little kid. Having a true rivalry with such a close market to us just cannot be replaced. The posturing between the Flames and the city has been a bit amusing to me though. We had to suffer a long time to get our arena.. so why would it be so easy for Calgary? Deals like this take time. They don't happen overnight. Calgary fans just have to be patient.

 

[Tyrolean]

test

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

If I recall something I read a while back regarding the Seattle arena situation, the city of Seattle is not prepared to help fund an arena when there is no tenant. The Flames would look good there.

Seattlepuck has a nice ring to it.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

I'm sure there are calculations of only the money put in. I've seen this cited many times by Burke and others recently. But, does it look at where that money comes from and if it would just be spent somewhere else in the same economy? Say local residents did spend 100M on flames stuff, tickets/merchandise. Could that money have only been spend on flames stuff? Does it evaporate without a sports team around? Or would it still have been mostly spent locally on other things? How much tourism and out of province, or even out of city/area money does a local NHL team really attract?

Not trying to say a sports team is worthless, just honestly curious of this kind of calculation as well.

Winnipeg would have been a great case study for this. What was the economy like during the Jets tenure, after they left, and when Atlanta moved there.

 

[Fourier]

I wonder has anyone ever done a study to figure out how much extra cash an NHL team puts into the economy .

There the taxes it creates
The Players make million and that gets spent in the communities
Players also has higher living standers that most so there property taxes and such for their million + dollar homes are much higher .
Then there people that go out to sport bars to watch the home team
Employment in the arenas and the spin offs that creates
Jersey sales in the sport stores .
Transportation to games .

I am sure there many other things I am missing . The point is for the government to invest 100s of millions they need a proper study done on the effects and cash generated from a team . A Government should not just say no base on public opinion . They need to have a feasibility study done and make an inform decision .

They sure as hell done mind handing out contracts to their friend or taking a raise for themselves . Just make an inform decision for once

There are lots of these studies. The problem is that you can skew the numbers depending on your perspective. The team can find numbers that show huge injections into the economy. But broader studies show that a lot of this is just taking from one sector/location to move it to another.

For me it comes down to the following question: Is an arena part of the infrastructure of a city the size of Edmonton/Calgary? If it is then I think a public/private partnership makes sense. If its not then the private entity should be all in or the City just goes on without.

To help answer this question I would also ask...If the Flames left would the City of Calgary eventually have to replace the Saddledome at full cost to the public or would there no longer be a need to upgrade the facility?

No way that I want the Flames to leave but the threat is very real. In fact without a deal in the next few years I'd say they are gone. Their ownership group is not that young. Edwards is the youngest at just under 60 but he has moved to England. Libin and Riddell are in their 80's, Markin in his 70's and McCaig late 60's. They are sitting on an asset which they can sell for $500+US tomorrow to Quebec City or elsewhere for perhaps more over the next couple of years. That is a lot of incentive to divest. And I am not at all sure that anyone else in Calgary would step up with $1/2 Billon US to keep the team in town if they then had to turn around and spend another $1/2 Billion for an arena.

In the end though I still think a deal gets done before they pull the trigger on a sale.

 

[Gord]

feel bad for the fans but one thing about the whole situation in Calgary makes me laugh.

that about all the times Kings mocked us and said the flames were not going to do thing like Edmonton.
except the fact they're doing the same thing but in a more ham handed way.

and I don't care what the flames try and do politically, but there is no way their puppet Smith beats Nenshi and becomes mayor. that I would bet the farm on.

 

[The Moose]

They'll get their arena. We saw this dance before in Edmonton.

 

[MoontoScott]

They will get their arena eventually but there is no way that Murray Edwards is going to dictate the terms as he is used to doing.

I notice that super weasel Bettman is right in there on this issue telling Calgarians what he wants or else. It never takes long for Worm tongue to surface.

Too bad that when NHL fans wanted our players in the Olympics Mr. Bettman casually rammed his middle finger in our faces. This is something that has angered fans here in Calgary. When the NHL wants something then best get it right now but when fans said we want a 3 peat of Gold at the Olympics then the answer was "too bad, issue closed."

 

[Gord]

They will get their arena eventually but there is no way that Murray Edwards is going to dictate the terms as he is used to doing.

I notice that super weasel Bettman is right in there on this issue telling Calgarians what he wants or else. It never takes long for Worm tongue to surface.

Too bad that when NHL fans wanted our players in the Olympics Mr. Bettman casually rammed his middle finger in our faces. This is something that has angered fans here in Calgary. When the NHL wants something then best get it right now but when fans said we want a 3 peat of Gold at the Olympics then the answer was "too bad, issue closed."

I like Bettman.
I wish he would go full WWE heel.

would have been great at that charity golf tourney in Calgary. Everyone having a good time, excited about the upcoming season. Then someone would having to say "uh-oh. That's Bettman's music!"

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Isn't Calgary due for Municipal elections soon? I suspect the Flames ownership is group is just planning to manipulate that process to get someone in office more conducive to what they're trying to do.

 

[NeverForget06]

Isn't Calgary due for Municipal elections soon? I suspect the Flames ownership is group is just planning to manipulate that process to get someone in office more conducive to what they're trying to do.

Yes, they are in 5 weeks. The timing is almost certainly not a coincidence

 

[shoop]

Isn't Calgary due for Municipal elections soon? I suspect the Flames ownership is group is just planning to manipulate that process to get someone in office more conducive to what they're trying to do.

Andre Chabot is the only real challenger to Nenshi. He would be more favourable to the pro-business crowd in general, and the pro-rink crowd specifically. There is a Save Calgary PAC targeting Nenshi so it's not impossible Nenshi loses. Still unlikely though.

 

[Peter Zezel]

Yes, they are in 5 weeks. The timing is almost certainly not a coincidence

That's what I thought also. Neshi has put the Victoria Park arena in his platform, but with this getting in the news it puts egg on his face. The Flames want to try and negotiate with someone else I think.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Andre Chabot is the only real challenger to Nenshi. He would be more favourable to the pro-business crowd in general, and the pro-rink crowd specifically. There is a Save Calgary PAC targeting Nenshi so it's not impossible Nenshi loses. Still unlikely though.

I agree, but I mean a guy who will be even more of lacky then then Chabot, I expect the Flames owners to feel entitled enough to just hijack civic politics in Calgary.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

this is straight from the "gimme my arena" playbook

they're simply at the "veiled threats to leave" section now...like Katz did in 2012

they'll get their arena eventually

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

this is straight from the "gimme my arena" playbook

they're simply at the "veiled threats to leave" section now...like Katz did in 2012

they'll get their arena eventually

Well that is a fair point, the situations in both cities is still different. An Arena was a lot easier to shoehorn into the downtown re-development, because bother were a need for the city.

Calgary's in a different spot, as far as I know.