Suzuki, Caufield, Slafkovsky and Dach, it's a great forward core?

[Legend123]

The only reason we're still arguing is because of "fan resistance", you are not letting objectivity weigh more than your fanatism in the balance... Also, "by a quite good amount" seems to be very "what have you done for me lately" flavored... I mean, Norris was OBJECTIVELY better for 2 seasons and while Suzuki has had a great start of the season, Norris has been injured pretty much right away, he has not been there to "defend himself"

Suzuki under Ducharme : 20 goals, 55 Pts, -28 in 83 games
Norris before this season : 47 goals, 75 Pts, -11 in last 91 games (12th highest GPG in the NHL during that 91 games sample size)

Suzuki now plays on a healthy team coached by Martin St. Louis while Norris is still stuck playing for a Ducharme level coach, maybe even worse, even though DJ Smith looks like the most friendly guy in the world

Finally, "the sens were also bad" during that 5 games stretch is total misinformation and proves that you have watched 0 minutes of play.

1st game : 4-1 loss to Buffalo but 2 empty net goals. Craig Anderson stole that game for them, very close game.
2nd game : another 1 goal game loss, again very close game in terms of high danger chances
3rd game : Sens scored 7 goals, dominated scoring chances 42-29
4th game : Sens scored 5 goals, dominated scoring chances 35-21 and 14-7 high danger chances
5th game : Sens scored 5 goals, dominated scoring chances 29-15 and 15-5 high danger chances

Norris got injured in that game when he finally scored his first goal. He was very snake bitten in the first 4 games, hitting multiple crossbars and posts and him and his teammates were getting robbed by goalies on plays he created or tried to finish. He was as usual playing against top competition and had a 54.84 CF%, 58.24 SF%, 55.58 xGF%, 61.43 SCF% and 67.57 HDCF%. He literally has the highest HDCF/60 among centers who played at least 30 minutes... What does it mean? He was creating A LOT of offense

And wow by digging I just found out that Suzuki has a xGF/60 of 2.2 (comfortably below average among Centers) and a xGA/60 of 4.31 (6th worse in the league), that is absolutely horrible. The fact that he is over PPG and still in the + is a miracle. He has a GF/60 of 5.15 wow, VASTLY outscoring his xGF

You should stop because you're demonstrating once again that you're out of your element. Making statements is the easiest thing to do in the world. Backing them up objectively is not as easy and some people just can't do it.

We must be watching different games. The games I wat he'd with Norris, the Sens were putrid.

I think the difference between you and I is that you love advanced stats and make up your mind solely on them. Whether the player actually played good or not on the ice has no bearings for you. On the other hand, I watch the games and leave with an impression. I don't care about these fancy stats. Most don't. You should come up with your conclusions instead of saying oh what look at these advanced stats which are so perfect in describing players, this guy actually sucks and nothing can change my mind.

That reminds me of the people who read things online and are quick to believe it because it has greater "authority" than their own knowledge.

 

[Xspyrit]

View attachment 610597

Yes, he's doing great!

The classic 20 game sample overreaction.

He doesn't believe in advanced stats. It doesn't seem he believes in stats either

Look at the stuff I have provided in my post above, quite shocking about Suzuki lol

I didnt mean to quote you.


Going back to January, Suzuki is PPG.

Norris is 0.87.

Its not close ever since Ducharme left.

Suzuki would be your best forward.

Yet, I am not shy to have any of Stutzle, DeBrincat, Batherson, Tkachuk, Norris and Giroux face any Habs forward

You have to realize that the Sens have been coached by a Ducharme level coach for years, maybe even worse. Just imagine MSL in Ottawa right now...

So while you cherry pick a period of time, as I mentioned in my post above, Norris has scored 47 goals in the last 91 games prior to this season, while matching up favorably against top competition

 

[Xspyrit]

We must be watching different games. The games I wat he'd with Norris, the Sens were putrid.

I think the difference between you and I is that you love advanced stats and make up your mind solely on them. Whether the player actually played good or not on the ice has no bearings for you. On the other hand, I watch the games and leave with an impression. I don't care about these fancy stats. Most don't. You should come up with your conclusions instead of saying oh what look at these advanced stats which are so perfect in describing players, this guy actually sucks and nothing can change my mind.

That reminds me of the people who read things online and are quick to believe it because it has greater "authority" than their own knowledge.

Which games have you watched WITH Norris this season where the Sens were "putrid"? I'll wait.

I think the difference between you and I is that you love advanced stats and make up your mind solely on them. Whether the player actually played good or not on the ice has no bearings for you. On the other hand, I watch the games and leave with an impression. I don't care about these fancy stats. Most don't. You should come up with your conclusions instead of saying oh what look at these advanced stats which are so perfect in describing players, this guy actually sucks and nothing can change my mind.

I don't "love" advanced stats... I just understand them, so maybe that's "the difference between you and I"

I don't make my mind solely on advanced stats... that's quite the assumption. I have debated over advanced stats and their utility way before you were a HF member. I have always said that they need context to be fully understood. But you don't want to look at context here, Suzuki is being used once again in a more offensive role and has been asked to produce, which he has been doing but you have to be aware that he has a RIDICULOUS on-ice SH% (16.67% lmao), which is the 3rd highest among NHL regulars. Do you know hat it means or I have to explain it to you? and that GF/60 vs xGF/60, quite the difference!

You're making crazy assumption after crazy assumption, not much of what you're saying is based on reality or anything tangible, just an usual fan opinion who only watches his own team. "Impressions" doesn't mean much if you're not pushing the analysis deeper.

My analysis is based on the same stuff as you PLUS stats, PLUS advanced stats PLUS reading from valuable sources. I have done nothing but to come up with my "own conclusions", it's just that's it's a bit too technical for you and you're out of your depth

That reminds me of the people who read things online and are quick to believe it because it has greater "authority" than their own knowledge.

Damn, you have so much to learn...

We absolutely have to refer to pre-existing knowledge, that's exactly what learning is all about. I understood that at a very young age so that's what I have been doing all the way. Of course, it's important to know your sources... Facebook and Instagram is NOT a source of knowledge

And "your own knowledge" doesn't really exist unless it's done with a scientific approach. But in this day and age, it mostly just becomes complementary to pre-existing knowledge or puts it in question once again.

 

[LongWayDown37]

Suzuki have potential to become a PPG two-way C.
Caufield have potential to become a 35-40g, 35-40a guy.
Slafkovsky have potential and tools to become a 30-35g, 30-35a (he is a great playmaker too), physical guy.
Dach have potential to become a 20g, 40a guy. (top 6 C, 60 points per season).

Do you think that's a great forward core?

The Sabres have the "potential" to fill every single one of their forward positions, 1-12, with goalscoring, playmaking and defensive prowess. But, like Montreal, its still mostly lottery tickets. I wouldn't call it anything yet.

 

[ole ole]

Well the 35 goals scored and the 68 pts pace last season to begin with and the JFresh cards that were already shown in the thread. Suzuki is on another level so far this year though but not really fair for Norris who suffered a serious injury early



You're probably just another one who can't read properly but notice it mentioned "the last 2 seasons"? Objectively, absolutely

Of course in terms of hype, Ottawa doesn't compete with Montreal duh



All right, not too bad of a discussion in the end. I don't disagree with everything, like I said I don't think the Sens are going anywhere with this coaching staff and well, management too. The hope is the team gets sold ASAP and the new ownership hire truly competent people like Montreal did.

But is the Norris vs Suzuki comment serious? Yes Norris was OBJECTIVELY better the last 2 seasons.

You guys really need to learn to read lol

Well the 35 goals scored and the 68 pts pace last season to begin with and the JFresh cards that were already shown in the thread. Suzuki is on another level so far this year though but not really fair for Norris who suffered a serious injury early



You're probably just another one who can't read properly but notice it mentioned "the last 2 seasons"? Objectively, absolutely

Of course in terms of hype, Ottawa doesn't compete with Montreal duh



All right, not too bad of a discussion in the end. I don't disagree with everything, like I said I don't think the Sens are going anywhere with this coaching staff and well, management too. The hope is the team gets sold ASAP and the new ownership hire truly competent people like Montreal did.

But is the Norris vs Suzuki comment serious? Yes Norris was OBJECTIVELY better the last 2 seasons.

You guys really need to learn to read lol

You claim Norris was OBJECTIVELY better the last 2 seasons.
Last 2 seasons
Suzuki- 138 GP-----36 G 66 A 102 TP .73 PPG Average
Norris -122 GP-----52 G 38 A 90 TP .73 PPG Average.
Career up to date
Suzuki 227 GP------60 G 106 A 166 TP -.73 PPG Average
Norris 130 GP------53 G 39 A 92 TP -.70 PPG Average.
Sure bud. Someone really needs to learn the meaning of OBJECTIVELY .

 

[LeProspector]

lol @ Suzuki being included here.

One of the worst contracts in the NHL.

 

[Legend123]

Which games have you watched WITH Norris this season where the Sens were "putrid"? I'll wait.



I don't "love" advanced stats... I just understand them, so maybe that's "the difference between you and I"

I don't make my mind solely on advanced stats... that's quite the assumption. I have debated over advanced stats and their utility way before you were a HF member. I have always said that they need context to be fully understood. But you don't want to look at context here, Suzuki is being used once again in a more offensive role and has been asked to produce, which he has been doing but you have to be aware that he has a RIDICULOUS on-ice SH% (16.67% lmao), which is the 3rd highest among NHL regulars. Do you know hat it means or I have to explain it to you? and that GF/60 vs xGF/60, quite the difference!

You're making crazy assumption after crazy assumption, not much of what you're saying is based on reality or anything tangible, just an usual fan opinion who only watches his own team. "Impressions" doesn't mean much if you're not pushing the analysis deeper.

My analysis is based on the same stuff as you PLUS stats, PLUS advanced stats PLUS reading from valuable sources. I have done nothing but to come up with my "own conclusions", it's just that's it's a bit too technical for you and you're out of your depth



Damn, you have so much to learn...

We absolutely have to refer to pre-existing knowledge, that's exactly what learning is all about. I understood that at a very young age so that's what I have been doing all the way. Of course, it's important to know your sources... Facebook and Instagram is NOT a source of knowledge

And "your own knowledge" doesn't really exist unless it's done with a scientific approach. But in this day and age, it mostly just becomes complementary to pre-existing knowledge or puts it in question once again.

I would say my hockey knowledge is quite superior than most. I watch a shitton of games. I watched 3 of the first 5 Sens games (and continue to watch them). If you think thats good....
Advanced stats are pure garbage most times. It's been proven over and over that it doesn't mean anything. I completed a masters in finance. Those stats are a joke compared to actual data analysis.

Damn what kind of reading do you do to come to hockey conclusions. Lol

Btw ever since I watched hockey, I advocated that the only way to build a sustainable winning hockey team is by building through the draft and young players and creating those bonds between the core players. That way they fight for each other and the team they represent.

Getting players from other teams who have played multiple seasons to fill the core generally doesn't do well. Just look at the Sens. Giroux and Debrincat... the Sens still suck.

 

[Legend123]

oof i wonder what kind of advanced stats are gonna convince me the Sens are any good.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

lol @ Suzuki being included here.

One of the worst contracts in the NHL.

This post is missing the emoji.

 

[Xirik]

So...How about them Sens.

 

[Mrb1p]

So...How about them Sens.

They have the best young core in the NHL

Sanderson is a future norris winner
Chabot should have 30 norris by now, hes basically Makar on steroids
Norris is the Sens 7th best forward but hes also much better than your teams best forward
Stutzle is mcdavid
Debrincat is gonna score even more goals this year than with Kane because Stutzle > Kane
Batherson is the best player youve never heard about
Oh yeah and they have Tkachuk whos the most special player in the league and of course not a defensive liability at all, a true captain

 

[Xspyrit]

You claim Norris was OBJECTIVELY better the last 2 seasons.
Last 2 seasons
Suzuki- 138 GP-----36 G 66 A 102 TP .73 PPG Average
Norris -122 GP-----52 G 38 A 90 TP .73 PPG Average.
Career up to date
Suzuki 227 GP------60 G 106 A 166 TP -.73 PPG Average
Norris 130 GP------53 G 39 A 92 TP -.70 PPG Average.
Sure bud. Someone really needs to learn the meaning of OBJECTIVELY .

Nice re-manipulation but it was for each season... And nice jab on my understanding of OBJECTIVELY.

2020-21 : Norris won by advanced stats (which were posted), War %, EV Offense, EV Defense, etc

Norris 17 goals vs Suzuki 15 goals
Norris 35 pts in 56 games vs Suzuki 41 pts in 56 games

Sure Suzuki had a few more assists but Norris was among the top defensive forwards AS A ROOKIE

2021-22 : Norris won by pure basic stats

Norris 35 goals vs Suzuki 20 goals
Norris 55 pts in 66 games (68 pts pace) vs Suzuki 61 pts in 82 games

I never said they were worlds apart but Norris had a better regular season both times

But look where it started, I initially said :

"losing Norris (11 games now) is like the Habs losing Suzuki"

And Legend123 replied :

"with all respect to Norris, Habs losing Suzuki would be a much bigger blow. He brings so much more than the better offense. Leadership, elite defense, elite hockey iq that spreads to his linemates and the number 1 C"

Which was misinformation, so that's where the discussion started. Norris is much more than "better offense". Suzuki is actually a much better playmaker, Norris being the better goal scorer (until now). It's other parts of the game that Norris bring that are very important and crucial to his team (not saying it's the case for Suzuki too). Sens were on a roll until he got inured, then things started to fall apart. The forward group is not nearly as good without him.

You can choose to think that Suzuki was better in each of the last 2 seasons all you want but the objective argumentation I have presented is undeniable, unless something was incorrect? I don't think so.

 

[Xspyrit]

I would say my hockey knowledge is quite superior than most. I watch a shitton of games. I watched 3 of the first 5 Sens games (and continue to watch them). If you think thats good....
Advanced stats are pure garbage most times. It's been proven over and over that it doesn't mean anything. I completed a masters in finance. Those stats are a joke compared to actual data analysis.

So you watched 3 of the first 5 games and the Sens were putrid? Again, WHICH games? How can a team be "putrid" when they win 3 of these games by several goals and in the 2 losses by 1 goal they exchanged scoring chances and high danger scoring chances as well as possession almost 50-50?

This sounds like pure cognitive bias

And well, I can't talk seriously with someone who think advanced stats don't mean anything. I mean, we're in 2022. Sure, there's a lot of context to it and it doesn't mean everything like it could in baseball for example, but you can't tell me that dominating 15-5 in high danger chances doesn't mean anything. Impossible for me to take someone like that seriously

Damn what kind of reading do you do to come to hockey conclusions. Lol

What? There's a ton of articles, blogs, podcasts, books on hockey... I'm not saying it brings to "conclusions" directly but information is power and knowledge helps you draw better conclusions.

Btw ever since I watched hockey, I advocated that the only way to build a sustainable winning hockey team is by building through the draft and young players and creating those bonds between the core players. That way they fight for each other and the team they represent.

Getting players from other teams who have played multiple seasons to fill the core generally doesn't do well. Just look at the Sens. Giroux and Debrincat... the Sens still suck.

Again, you're totally ignoring reasons as to why the Sens might still suck...

- coaching : just not capable to implement any defensive hockey systems (I'm sure you know what are these in your vast knowledge)

- management : yes got Giroux and DeBrincat but proceeded to make the whole bottom-6 a weakness, which was exacerbated by Norris injury. The right play would have been to extend Nick paul when they could, to keep Connor Brown happy and then keep both. Then Formenton is "on pause" (at least for now) which makes everything worse. Then they sign Tyler Motte to patch the self-inflicted gigantic holes

- coaching again : Giroux and DeBrincat have been used wrongfully in many games, by having the 2 goal scorers on the same line for example and the 3 less 2-way forwards on the same line. They have no idea what they are doing.

- getting DeBrincat is a nice splash but should have used assets to get a Top-4 RHD which is the gigantic hole in the lineup

Etc, etc, etc. Team needs to be sold because they need a new management and a new coaching staff, exactly like the Habs did last season and look how it changed the whole landscape. If someone should understand, it's a Habs fan.

Instead you choose to rely on YOUR KNOWLEDGE (which isn't much in the grand scheme of things). I choose to rely on pre-existing knowledge, facts like stats and advanced stats because in the end, MY knowledge is not the be-all and end-all

 

[Legend123]

So you watched 3 of the first 5 games and the Sens were putrid? Again, WHICH games? How can a team be "putrid" when they win 3 of these games by several goals and in the 2 losses by 1 goal they exchanged scoring chances and high danger scoring chances as well as possession almost 50-50?

This sounds like pure cognitive bias

And well, I can't talk seriously with someone who think advanced stats don't mean anything. I mean, we're in 2022. Sure, there's a lot of context to it and it doesn't mean everything like it could in baseball for example, but you can't tell me that dominating 15-5 in high danger chances doesn't mean anything. Impossible for me to take someone like that seriously



What? There's a ton of articles, blogs, podcasts, books on hockey... I'm not saying it brings to "conclusions" directly but information is power and knowledge helps you draw better conclusions.



Again, you're totally ignoring reasons as to why the Sens might still suck...

- coaching : just not capable to implement any defensive hockey systems (I'm sure you know what are these in your vast knowledge)

- management : yes got Giroux and DeBrincat but proceeded to make the whole bottom-6 a weakness, which was exacerbated by Norris injury. The right play would have been to extend Nick paul when they could, to keep Connor Brown happy and then keep both. Then Formenton is "on pause" (at least for now) which makes everything worse. Then they sign Tyler Motte to patch the self-inflicted gigantic holes

- coaching again : Giroux and DeBrincat have been used wrongfully in many games, by having the 2 goal scorers on the same line for example and the 3 less 2-way forwards on the same line. They have no idea what they are doing.

- getting DeBrincat is a nice splash but should have used assets to get a Top-4 RHD which is the gigantic hole in the lineup

Etc, etc, etc. Team needs to be sold because they need a new management and a new coaching staff, exactly like the Habs did last season and look how it changed the whole landscape. If someone should understand, it's a Habs fan.

Instead you choose to rely on YOUR KNOWLEDGE (which isn't much in the grand scheme of things). I choose to rely on pre-existing knowledge, facts like stats and advanced stats because in the end, MY knowledge is not the be-all and end-all

I don't remember specifically which games I watched. I know I watched the first game and that was embarrassing. I also watched the second game which they lost and watched them win one game. I was very underwhelmed. I continued to watch including last night's complete embarrassment. I'm sorry but that is no team. I can list all the major problems that they have based on my viewings if u care to read them.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Suzuki is a decent 2C if everything goes right
Caufield is a 20G power play specialist
Slafkovsky wouldn’t go top 20 in a normal year
Dach is a bust

 

[Xspyrit]

I don't remember specifically which games I watched. I know I watched the first game and that was embarrassing. I also watched the second game which they lost and watched them win one game. I was very underwhelmed. I continued to watch including last night's complete embarrassment. I'm sorry but that is no team. I can list all the major problems that they have based on my viewings if u care to read them.

Sure but you'll have to read this then!

Player Card Explainer

With so many players being signed or traded, I’ve been posting a lot of Tweets like this one: For most people, the stats on this image probably don’t mean much - if anything. I’ve gotten plenty of comments and DMs saying as much. I mean, you can tell that blue is good and red is bad, but other...

jfresh.substack.com

I don't see how the first game was embarrassing... it was basically a 2-1 loss with both teams exchanging possession, shots and scoring chances, it was as even as a game can be. The 2nd game was so-so but it ended in a 1 goal loss, Sens had 16 higher danger chances vs 15 for the Leafs. Not really embarrassing. Then they were dominant in their 3 wins. I still have no idea how you could say this. Eye test says the exact same thing, you can see extended highlights here :

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

However you're 100% right that this is not a team right now. Just a bunch of individuals who have no idea what to do when they don't have the puck. It starts with coaching and once again, I like DJ Smith but Ducharme looked like a cool guy too.

 

[ole ole]

Suzuki is a decent 2C if everything goes right
Caufield is a 20G power play specialist
Slafkovsky wouldn’t go top 20 in a normal year
Dach is a bust

Caufield will hit 20 before this thread is closed.
Suzuki is easily a #1 and is proving it.
Slaf went #1 in a normal yr.
Thank God the Hawks gave up and passed that bust to the Habs.