Speculation: Subban played injured against NYR

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Misleading title.

Everybody picks up an injury or two in the playoffs.

Subban is good, but certainly not the best in the world.

you know there are varying degrees of injuries right? Some are a little banged up and some are actually playing really hurt.

It must be cool living in your world of black and white

lol. to be that certain that PK was not injured at all!

Why can't it be that NYR deserved to win AND Subban was injured?

It's funny when a fan gets so defensive if another fan might suggest one of our players is injured, hahaha. It happens all the time in the playoffs. Players playing with pretty bad injuries.

BS.

He's as good as any blueliner in the league. And he proved it when he kicked the Bruins ass.

Thanks for stopping by.

You can bring up some points why PK isn't the best but he is probably the best big game performer of all the D. He's just way too freaking clutch. Subban's the 2nd highest scoring D in the playoffs. 2 less points than Doughty in 3 less games.

McDonagh might have had the better series and is a fantastic defensemen but you'd have to be insane to trade him straight up for PK.

 

[Alexander Edler*]

You can bring up some points why PK isn't the best but he is probably the best big game performer of all the D. He's just way too freaking clutch.

So clutch he didn't show up at all for the ECF.

Seriously, guys. I love Subban as much as the next guy, but some of the posts in this thread are trying a little too hard.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

So clutch he didn't show up at all for the ECF.

Seriously, guys. I love Subban as much as the next guy, but some of the posts in this thread are trying a little too hard.

how many times did he come up huge before that series? Come on. How many game winning plays can one D man make? We're not talking forward but a D man for crying out loud.

 

[Alexander Edler*]

how many times did he come up huge before that series? Come on. How many game winning plays can one D man make? We're not talking forward but a D man for crying out loud.

It doesn't matter how well he played in the Boston series. If you're claiming he is "the best big game performer" amongst d-men or that he is "just way too freaking clutch", then he should have played well in the ECF too.

He's a very good player, but he is not there yet. This series should be evidence of that.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Of course he's "there". He's our only ****ing defenseman that's "there".

I said it on the main board and I'll say it here - our team has a #1 defenseman in PK Subban and then a bunch of #4 - depth defenseman. He has pretty much no support back there. We need a legitimate #2 and #3 defenseman to take some of the workload off Subban. Playing 30 minutes with his style is too much. He was out of it by the end of the run.

 

[Aceekay]

It must be cool living in your world of black and white

It is, at least I can deal with losing a series without complaining about refs or injuries.

 

[Aceekay]

It doesn't matter how well he played in the Boston series. If you're claiming he is "the best big game performer" amongst d-men or that he is "just way too freaking clutch", then he should have played well in the ECF too.

He's a very good player, but he is not there yet. This series should be evidence of that.

If pk subban isn't there yet, then there is no 'there yet'

 

[24rings]

If Subban was injured it sure as hell didnt show on the dancefloor tonight.

 

[oleHABSole*]

What I don't like about Subban is how he was so nonchalant during his interviews, even when we got eliminated. Gorges was the only guy that cared. Gorges understood how rare these opportunities come. Guys like Pacioretty and Vanek just wanna enjoy their summer and count their money.

 

[Camio]

Maybe in your world but not the best hockey minds in the worlds opinion when he sat for all but 1 game in the Olympics. And that was just Canadians, did not include any other nationalities. So no, far from best blueliner in league and if anybody really thinks that, time to take off the Habs colored glasses.

Yeah, some on this board have been saying he's the best in the league, yet, you cant even make the argument he's in the top 3 for canadians Dmen.

 

[Camio]

It could be argued that he was the best dman in the league over the past 2 years but you would loose that argument. i don't think you could find any hockey analyst that would agree with that, many thought he was not worthy of the Norris. And again we go back to the Olympics, if Babcock thought he was the best dman he would have played more than 1 game. I believe I will defer to Babcocks opinion over yours.

It wasnt only Babcock's opinion. Babcock wasnt running the show by himself. This only reinforce what you said.

When I said back in Nov-Dec that PK wouldnt likely crack the top 5 on the roster, a few select people flagged me as a hater (obviously). When PK sat at the Olympics, they had to blame TC for being clueless. I love their logic. Sadly, the hater was right.

Yet, you see some of them still going around telling people he's #1 in the league. The 2 best are still playing as we speak.

 

[dr robbie]

doesn't everyone play injured in the playoffs?

 

[Devourers]

Of course he's "there". He's our only ****ing defenseman that's "there".

I said it on the main board and I'll say it here - our team has a #1 defenseman in PK Subban and then a bunch of #4 - depth defenseman. He has pretty much no support back there. We need a legitimate #2 and #3 defenseman to take some of the workload off Subban. Playing 30 minutes with his style is too much. He was out of it by the end of the run.

I've been asking myself "who the f is Dean Ambrose" when I see your name at the top there, never really noticed any of your posts and saw you were a mod.

Anyways just wanted to say the 1st post I read of yours is a good one. The voice of reason has entered the building folks.

He won a Norris trophy in his early 20s. He's "there yet" guys. Who cares if "some analysts" didn't agree with it. Was he perfect? No, far from it. It was the first playoff series I ever saw PK not be clutch in. Even the others where we lost he was clutch. But yeah, since in one series where Price was hurt, by the other team I might add, and we had Bouillon, Beaulieu, Emelin, Markov, Gorges, Weaver, etc as our other d-men, we lost.

If you don't see anything wrong with that composition of d-men, I don't know what to tell you. Not to take away from those players individual efforts, times in the limelight and so on, but you aren't going to get to many SCF with that d-men composition.

Emelin just got back from a very big injury, and was a target all playoffs long. I'm only going to stay on Emelin for a sec since it's a Subban thread, but get a grip guys. In the other threads I see people Emelin bashing, give the guy a summer to actually recover, have a training camp and come back for real before you trash him. He's banged up.

Whether or not Subban is hurt, I could care less. Price was out, we had a bunch of #3-8 d-men, and NYR played better than us and deserved to win. The sooner you all accept that and stop making excuses, the sooner we can move on and talk about who we're going to draft and how we're going to upset again next year and go deep.

It happens, we lost our goalie, we still weren't built for a cup, we overachieved but next year guys like Gallagher and Galchenyuk will be more experienced, be a year older. Guys like Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, will take their natural next step. Same with guys like Andrighetto, Crisp, Thrower, there is a lot to look forward to. Our guys 18-30yr old are pretty darn good, and we have basically waves of average to great prospects and young players developing at a good rate.

Subban didn't have a great series, but he's a premiere offensive d-man in the league, who is also a top agitator among d-men, plays a physical style, he's strong, big, and clutch. I take the other plethora of series' where he was instrumental in our success over one series where we had a bunch of scrubs backing him up and a AHL goalie in nets, all due respect to Tokariski he was great, but he's no Price.

 

[Kriss E]

Those are all fair points, honestly, I'm not trying to come off as the one holding the one truth. I do think he isn't quite as nimble as he was in his couple of first season, or compared to his Norris season, for that matter, and this is probably where our opinions divert the most and thus makes it impossible to come to a consensus down the road. From what I saw, and based on what we know (implying possible lingering injuries, hidden from the public eye), I don't see any other explanations other than a lack of conditioning, which, knowing the guy, seems pretty unlikely, or overdoing it in the gym in certain areas.

But again, this is just me spitballing.

I don't see why you go towards lack of conditioning or over doing it before assuming the most logical things, natural fatigue.
This is the first time for most of the guys on this team to have gone as far as they did in the POs. Some of them even played for the Olympics. So this is by far the most hockey they've played in a while.
Let's not forget they had a shortened season last year, which also could play a part in how fatigued you are.
The most important thing though is mental fatigue. All those guys are tired, there isn't one NHL battling in the Conference finals that isn't tired. It's about fighting through that fatigue level and being able to maintain the same effort. It's a skill that you develop believe it or not. You notice his mental fatigue when he iced the puck when they got a penalty at the end of the 2nd period. He took another weird decision at the end with our goalie pulled. The guy was tired, it's painfully obvious.

We can look back at Price who gained too much weight over one summer. You noticed how slower he was, but we also noticed how less agile he was. The same cannot be said for PK. He did not lose any agility out there.
As for him looking slower throughout the year, PK came out of the gates looking even better than last year. There were discussions about him being the best in the NHL. Really, the things he was doing early in the year was just amazing. Then our great coach decided to make a public example out of him. That coincided with a drop in performance. So, again, I really don't think it has anything to do with conditioning/bulking.
I think it was him being confused most of the year, playing scared, not playing his style because he didn't want to displeased the coaching staff.

 

[Bacchus1]

Ok I know this will come out as a controversial thread, but I have to do it.

Against NewYork, one of the best d-man in the world:
-Couldn't skate with mobility
-Was skating as less as possible
-Was targeted in the legs
-Kept the puck for short amounts of time
-Played a stay-at-home type of game

To me, he was in pain every time his left foot touched the ice when skating, which he tried to avoid as much as possible. His new 'style' was made to reduce his movement, not to be efficient.
The guy takes a lot of crap when playing, and we can argue he isn't made of steel.

Blocked shots, slashings, TOI... an injury had to happen.
But, he played despite the pain. So another reason the admire him, he's inspiring.

My proof? Watch some games for a 2nd time and focus on his left foot.

It's was obvious to me since the first games of the series we just lost, Subban's left foot couldn't do it anymore.

Injuries killed us once again.

Add a question mark to your title, as it is speculative.

I have no clue as to Subban's health! Let me know if you ever find anything conclusive.

 

[Kriss E]

It could be argued that he was the best dman in the league over the past 2 years but you would loose that argument. i don't think you could find any hockey analyst that would agree with that, many thought he was not worthy of the Norris. And again we go back to the Olympics, if Babcock thought he was the best dman he would have played more than 1 game. I believe I will defer to Babcocks opinion over yours.

It's not an argument anybody would lose. There are three Dmen that are at the top of the NHL imo. Keith-Doughty-PK. Those three guys are on their own level. Just a notch below you have guys like Weber and Chara.

The Olympics mean jack crap. Duchene and Sharp were scratched, when they were does this mean the other 12 players chosen over them were better? Of course not man.
The same is true of PK. It's been discussed ad nauseum why PK wasn't used, so I don't see why you're using it. It's dishonest.
Team Canada expressed how they were going to build their defensive unit. They wanted experience, familiarity and players playing their natural side. That is coming from them.
Doughty and Weber are both RHD that won the gold 4 years prior. Everybody knew they were a shoe in. It had nothing to do with who's better, they just fit the mold of TC. So they were in for sure. It left an opening for the last RD spot. Hitchcock, who was in charge of the D btw, brought his STL pairing of Jaybo-Pietro. Everybody knew what the pairings were going to be before the team selection was even made.
It had nothing to do with who's better, it had to do with the criteria set by Team Canada.
I would also had that, I believe it was Ray Ferraro on 690, said during these POs that PK showed how he wasn't the 8th best Dman on TC. Other analysts were calling him and Price the leaders for Conn Smythe.

So again, anybody either saying ''there's no way he's the best'' or ''he's absolutely the best'' is out to lunch. Keith-Doughty-PK are the top 3 Dmen of the NHL.
Keith and Doughty are lucky enough to be on teams that are just stacked with talent. Hopefully the Habs are on their way there as well, and PK can bring us a cup too. As for who you find is better out of those three, as I said, personal preference.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe in your world but not the best hockey minds in the worlds opinion when he sat for all but 1 game in the Olympics. And that was just Canadians, did not include any other nationalities. So no, far from best blueliner in league and if anybody really thinks that, time to take off the Habs colored glasses.

Right and Yzerman wasn't good enough to make the Olympics in '91... try again.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I'm pretty sure he's been injured for a while.. Likely since the Olympics if not before that.

 

[BLONG7]

Not sure if there was an injury, but he did seem to hit a wall vs the Rangers...he was amazing just the round before...

 

[gretskidoo]

Nope.

 

[beowulf]

Nope, wasn't injured. Injuries didn't kill us, we weren't as good as the rangers it's that simple.

Stop with the excuses.

Correction, I believe this team is as good as the Rangers, but the Rangers just played better when it mattered.

 

[digmor crusher]

It's not an argument anybody would lose. There are three Dmen that are at the top of the NHL imo. Keith-Doughty-PK. Those three guys are on their own level. Just a notch below you have guys like Weber and Chara.

The Olympics mean jack crap. Duchene and Sharp were scratched, when they were does this mean the other 12 players chosen over them were better? Of course not man.
The same is true of PK. It's been discussed ad nauseum why PK wasn't used, so I don't see why you're using it. It's dishonest.
Team Canada expressed how they were going to build their defensive unit. They wanted experience, familiarity and players playing their natural side. That is coming from them.
Doughty and Weber are both RHD that won the gold 4 years prior. Everybody knew they were a shoe in. It had nothing to do with who's better, they just fit the mold of TC. So they were in for sure. It left an opening for the last RD spot. Hitchcock, who was in charge of the D btw, brought his STL pairing of Jaybo-Pietro. Everybody knew what the pairings were going to be before the team selection was even made.
It had nothing to do with who's better, it had to do with the criteria set by Team Canada.
I would also had that, I believe it was Ray Ferraro on 690, said during these POs that PK showed how he wasn't the 8th best Dman on TC. Other analysts were calling him and Price the leaders for Conn Smythe.

So again, anybody either saying ''there's no way he's the best'' or ''he's absolutely the best'' is out to lunch. Keith-Doughty-PK are the top 3 Dmen of the NHL.
Keith and Doughty are lucky enough to be on teams that are just stacked with talent. Hopefully the Habs are on their way there as well, and PK can bring us a cup too. As for who you find is better out of those three, as I said, personal preference.

PK is not one of the top 3 dman in the league, only place I hear this is on this forum. Guarantee if you polled every coach in the league and asked them who they would rather have for a 1 game winner take all they would almost all take Weber and Chara over PK.

 

[Habaddict]

This thread is getting stupid, as PK threads always do. But I've been saying
this since the end of the Bruin series, and I'll say it again. Subban had a problem
with his strength/fluidity on his skates. He got better in the last two games
against the Rangers, but he still didn't have the physical ability he had against
the Bruins.
This is an observation. If someone uses the word "excuse", I'm likely to
spend some of my time laughing at you.

 

[WG]

What I don't like about Subban is how he was so nonchalant during his interviews, even when we got eliminated. Gorges was the only guy that cared. Gorges understood how rare these opportunities come. Guys like Pacioretty and Vanek just wanna enjoy their summer and count their money.

Seriously? Only Gorges cared? Max wants to count his money?

And I have precious little doubt that PK wants to win just as badly as Gorges regardless of a couple of sound bites.

 

[Habaddict]

Seriously? Only Gorges cared? Max wants to count his money?

And I have precious little doubt that PK wants to win just as badly as Gorges regardless of a couple of sound bites.

I'm with you on this. Players are forced to respond to questions. Then
those responses are taken out of context.
I think Subban is very competitive, and doesn't take losing lightly. But
then again, I think this is true of probably every NHL player. Fans who
understand nothing of sports, professional or otherwise, but think that
they "know" something about a player because they heard a sound bite,
are just really stupid.