Speculation: Subban played injured against NYR

[Mike8]

Fair points.

 

[Kriss E]

More or less this. I hold the firm belief that PK bulked up too much last summer, which affected his speed and endurance. He wasn't quite "as fast" as he once was all season long, including the 1st and 2nd round.

And playing 30 minutes a night as a puck rusher would drain anyone in no time. He doesn't play a laid back style like Suter or Pietrangelo.

Injured or not, he was our MVP during those playoffs. Let's not get our Sens' fan hypersensitiveness excuse mode going please.

PK is probably leaner today than he was at the first game of the year. He's never been the fastest skater out there. He's got great mobility and agility, he isn't slow, but he's never been a fast skater like Keith or Doughty, at least not for the first strides. He needs to work on his acceleration power during the summer.

Also, we're not talking about bodybuilding here. He did not put on muscle mass without paying attention to how it will effect his performance. We're talking about a hockey player and knowing facilities like LPS, I know there's no way they will guide their athletes into bulking up at the cost of speed. Their workouts aim to improve speed, power and agility.
So no, I seriously doubt ''bulking up'' has much of anything to do with it.

 

[Lebowski]

PK is probably leaner today than he was at the first game of the year. He's never been the fastest skater out there. He's got great mobility and agility, he isn't slow, but he's never been a fast skater like Keith or Doughty, at least not for the first strides. He needs to work on his acceleration power during the summer.

Also, we're not talking about bodybuilding here. We're talking about a hockey player and knowing facilities like LPS, I know there's no way they will guide their athletes into bulking up at the cost of speed. Their workouts aim to improve speed, power and agility.
So no, I seriously doubt ''bulking up'' has much of anything to do with it.

PK started out as a 200 - 205 pound guy.

He's now at 220.

Whether or not he trained for explosion or whatnot, he still has a lot more meat to carry around now than he had then, for the same 6 feet frame. I don't have any tangible proofs to back up my claims, which are, like I said, mostly me thinking out loud for the most part, but what else could it be?

 

[Mike8]

PK is probably leaner today than he was at the first game of the year. He's never been the fastest skater out there. He's got great mobility and agility, he isn't slow, but he's never been a fast skater like Keith or Doughty, at least not for the first strides. He needs to work on his acceleration power during the summer.

Also, we're not talking about bodybuilding here. We're talking about a hockey player and knowing facilities like LPS, I know there's no way they will guide their athletes into bulking up at the cost of speed. Their workouts aim to improve speed, power and agility.
So no, I seriously doubt ''bulking up'' has much of anything to do with it.

I know this is your domain, so I have a question for you here.

It seems to me that Subban's a whole lot stronger now than he was a couple of years ago. As mentioned, he'd be going toe to toe with Lucic notably in these playoffs, and he's able to contain very strong players along the boards now where he'd be more inclined to hold his ground in the past rather than engage and impose himself on them. This coincides with Subban having gained weight, so he's obviously put on muscle (and wouldn't this be categorised as adding bulk?).

Given the above, and given that he has put on weight, it's evident to me that he's stronger. Couldn't that additional strength & weight make him less nimble?

 

[Hackett]

Nope, wasn't injured. Injuries didn't kill us, we weren't as good as the rangers it's that simple.

Stop with the excuses.

It must be cool living in your world of black and white

 

[Kriss E]

PK started out as a 200 - 205 pound guy.

He's now at 220.

Whether or not he trained for explosion or whatnot, he still has a lot more meat to carry around now than he had then, for the same 6 feet frame. I don't have any tangible proofs to back up my claims, which are, like I said, mostly me thinking out loud for the most part, but what else could it be?

He's listed at 217lbs on the NHL site, and that's the weight he started the year at, not finish. As I said, I'd bet my money on PK being lighter than that weight now.
We're also talking about around a 15lbs increase in over 4 years. We're not talking about a 20lbs increase in 3months.
Also, knowing where PK trained, I know what type of exercises they are likely having him do and I don't think they impact his speed. I think the opposite actually. I'm sure he does things that increase his speed.
Look at the football running backs or receivers, you got some seriously heavy guys that move like lightning out there. So it's really not as simple as 220 vs 200, which one is faster.

What else could it be? Well, plain old fatigue could be one. They are athletes, not machines. That fatigue can be both physical and mental too. A bunch of different minor injuries also take their toll. Could be a bunch of things. I would probably put bulking up at the bottom of the list of reasons (talking about PK's case specifically because we have info on his off season training).

I know this is your domain, so I have a question for you here.

It seems to me that Subban's a whole lot stronger now than he was a couple of years ago. As mentioned, he'd be going toe to toe with Lucic notably in these playoffs, and he's able to contain very strong players along the boards now where he'd be more inclined to hold his ground in the past rather than engage and impose himself on them. This coincides with Subban having gained weight, so he's obviously put on muscle (and wouldn't this be categorised as adding bulk?).

Given the above, and given that he has put on weight, it's evident to me that he's stronger. Couldn't that additional strength & weight make him less nimble?

For sure, from a general statement stand point such as ''could adding weight/muscle affect your speed'', absolutely. My point is that knowing his trainer is Clance Taylor, that he trains at LPS, I don't think they've programmed his training without eliminating that possibility. They are not going to make him stronger while costing him speed. I seriously doubt they would do that and I can't believe they would build a program while being oblivious to it.
Speed is a huge asset and skill, it is a major part of the game. You want PK to become stronger, while retaining speed and ideally even gaining.
My point is a 217lbs PK does not mean a slower PK. Not if trained properly and I'm sure he's being trained well.

But yes, from a general stand point, adding weight can make you slower. However, when done right, adding muscle will make you faster.

It's tough to know without the full outline, but knowing the type of facility he goes at, I'm sure he's in good hands and that his training didn't make him slower.
Also, I'm pretty sure his weight is back down. If he started the year at 217lbs, I doubt he's at 217 now. That would surprised me a whole lot.

 

[Darkstorm]

But they won't be injured when they will be counting their $$$$

 

[Mike8]

Thanks for elaborating, Kriss.

 

[canadiensnation]

we'll find out about player injuries in more detail in the next couple of days.

 

[groovejuice]

He's listed at 217lbs on the NHL site, and that's the weight he started the year at, not finish. As I said, I'd bet my money on PK being lighter than that weight now.
We're also talking about around a 15lbs increase in over 4 years. We're not talking about a 20lbs increase in 3months.
Also, knowing where PK trained, I know what type of exercises they are likely having him do and I don't think they impact his speed. I think the opposite actually. I'm sure he does things that increase his speed.
Look at the football running backs or receivers, you got some seriously heavy guys that move like lightning out there. So it's really not as simple as 220 vs 200, which one is faster.

What else could it be? Well, plain old fatigue could be one. They are athletes, not machines. That fatigue can be both physical and mental too. A bunch of different minor injuries also take their toll. Could be a bunch of things. I would probably put bulking up at the bottom of the list of reasons (talking about PK's case specifically because we have info on his off season training).



For sure, from a general statement stand point such as ''could adding weight/muscle affect your speed'', absolutely. My point is that knowing his trainer is Clance Taylor, that he trains at LPS, I don't think they've programmed his training without eliminating that possibility. They are not going to make him stronger while costing him speed. I seriously doubt they would do that and I can't believe they would build a program while being oblivious to it.
Speed is a huge asset and skill, it is a major part of the game. You want PK to become stronger, while retaining speed and ideally even gaining.
My point is a 217lbs PK does not mean a slower PK. Not if trained properly and I'm sure he's being trained well.

But yes, from a general stand point, adding weight can make you slower. However, when done right, adding muscle will make you faster.

It's tough to know without the full outline, but knowing the type of facility he goes at, I'm sure he's in good hands and that his training didn't make him slower.
Also, I'm pretty sure his weight is back down. If he started the year at 217lbs, I doubt he's at 217 now. That would surprised me a whole lot.

He's obviously fit and strong. I've always been a champion of cross training, even of its not the "latest thing".

No professional athlete would suffer from extra stretching time whether from yoga, rock climbing, dance...ad nauseum.

 

[Power Man]

Nope, wasn't injured. Injuries didn't kill us, we weren't as good as the rangers it's that simple.

Stop with the excuses.

This

 

[digmor crusher]

I have a theory on this.

Like I said in the original post, he found a new style for the 3rd round, a one in which he moves as less as possible. Subban can now handle more minutes, since he kept his energy by doing less on the ice. He played through pain, bye bye to his efficiency. His upper body isn't affected, all Subban had to do was to protect Tokarski like a shut-down d-man.

i would not call Subban a shut down dman. His offense is great, his defense not so much, he needs to calm down a bit, relax in his own end. He was not injured, just exposed that his game still needs much work.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Misleading title.

Everybody picks up an injury or two in the playoffs.

Subban is good, but certainly not the best in the world.

BS.

He's as good as any blueliner in the league. And he proved it when he kicked the Bruins ass.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Lebowski]

He's listed at 217lbs on the NHL site, and that's the weight he started the year at, not finish. As I said, I'd bet my money on PK being lighter than that weight now.
We're also talking about around a 15lbs increase in over 4 years. We're not talking about a 20lbs increase in 3months.
Also, knowing where PK trained, I know what type of exercises they are likely having him do and I don't think they impact his speed. I think the opposite actually. I'm sure he does things that increase his speed.
Look at the football running backs or receivers, you got some seriously heavy guys that move like lightning out there. So it's really not as simple as 220 vs 200, which one is faster.

What else could it be? Well, plain old fatigue could be one. They are athletes, not machines. That fatigue can be both physical and mental too. A bunch of different minor injuries also take their toll. Could be a bunch of things. I would probably put bulking up at the bottom of the list of reasons (talking about PK's case specifically because we have info on his off season training).

My "theory", if you can call it that, is based on the evidence that Subban has been noticeably slower since the beginning of the season, so while fatigue may be part of the reason as far as playoffs are concerned, it wouldn't explain why he was slower during the season.

 

[Bullsmith]

Habs didn't show up for game one and got plain outplayed in game 6. At the same time, if the Rangers lose King Henry in game one.... yeah Price very likely takes the Habs to the finals.

Was this the start or did we peak? VERY much hoping this was a sign of things to come. Seriously upgrade one of Vanek, Pleks, Gio ie. up front...get someone who slots above Gorges/Weaver...

And of course GET BIGGER DOWN THE MIDDLE.

 

[bdog]

Didn't he injure his ribs at one point in the series? Dependent on the extent of his pain, it could have affected a lot. Nevertheless, injuries are not the reason we lost, we were simply outplayed by the Rangers yesterday.

 

[25get]

McDonagh had a easier game with the Rangers doing their forechecking.
If our forward are able to keep the puck in the zone, Subban gets more opportunities.

In the last period, we saw part of that, we were able to do forechecking at times but never like the NYR did to us in the third period of the last game.
For that crucial game, the way they executed their game plan was better than us.

 

[Grant McCagg]

A foot injury has little to do with the multitude of brain cramps we were subjected to from PK. It would also not have caused him to be able to skate forward a helluva lot faster than he did backwards on many occasions.

The fact is that the Habs made it to Game 6 in the conference final without major contributions from their star goalie, defenceman and forwards. Subban, Patches and Vanek were, for the most part, subpar. Add in that the up and coming star missed all but the last few games with injury...

This was a learning experience for the young core. Hopefully Patch now has an idea of the need to step his game up another level come playoff time...same with PK, but to a lesser extent. At least PK has done it in the past in early playoff rounds...now the task will be doing it for 16 wins.

 

[Kriss E]

My "theory", if you can call it that, is based on the evidence that Subban has been noticeably slower since the beginning of the season, so while fatigue may be part of the reason as far as playoffs are concerned, it wouldn't explain why he was slower during the season.

I don't believe PK was particularly any slower than before though. He never was in the mold of Doughty or Keith speed skating wise. He always looked like a powerful skater, not a speedy one.
I think PK will remain around his 215-220 frame anyways, it is an ideal weight imo. His body composition could still change, from the pictures I recall seeing, he still had some ''baby fat'' he could shed.
Furthermore, if his weight did affect his speed, then it would also have played a part in reducing his agility and we saw none of that. He still moved around the ice very well, skated around players, blew by them when he did his classic ''go back tight around the net and speed off'' move, he could still skate circles around his opponents in the offensive zone. All of those things would have been affected if his bulking up had affected his speed, ie his skating.

I honestly don't think his gain of 10-15lbs that was probably cut in half anyways by mid-season affected him.

 

[Lebowski]

A foot injury has little to do with the multitude of brain cramps we were subjected to from PK. It would also not have caused him to be able to skate forward a helluva lot faster than he did backwards on many occasions.

The fact is that the Habs made it to Game 6 in the conference final without major contributions from their star goalie, defenceman and forwards. Subban, Patches and Vanek were, for the most part, subpar. Add in that the up and coming star missed all but the last few games with injury...

This was a learning experience for the young core. Hopefully Patch now has an idea of the need to step his game up another level come playoff time...same with PK, but to a lesser extent. At least PK has done it in the past in early playoff rounds...now the task will be doing it for 16 wins.

I think that's a little harsh on him. Everyone were sub-par in the 1st game, but I think PK played a fairly good two-way game in the remaining games of the series. Weaver and him were by far the two most effective defensemen in their own zone, and while PK may have not contributed offensively as much as he wanted to, I think he did well in other areas.

He's been so unfairly labelled as a liability in his own zone that people automatically assume he's worthless unless he puts up point. I think he looked great in game 6, most definitely the best player from the Habs' side, but the forwards couldn't generate much on their own, which made it easy to shut him down.

Before tonight, PK was the most used defenseman of all teams left in the playoffs. He lead his team in points, something that doesn't apply to any of Doughty, Keith or McDonagh. He was the driving force of his team, something that yet again hardly apply to any of the other defensemen. He ended the playoffs at +1, McDonagh is at -2 - and he played over 3 minutes more of ES time per game than McDonagh.

 

[Kriss E]

Thanks for elaborating, Kriss.

My pleasure buddy, any time!

 

[digmor crusher]

BS.

He's as good as any blueliner in the league. And he proved it when he kicked the Bruins ass.

Thanks for stopping by.

Maybe in your world but not the best hockey minds in the worlds opinion when he sat for all but 1 game in the Olympics. And that was just Canadians, did not include any other nationalities. So no, far from best blueliner in league and if anybody really thinks that, time to take off the Habs colored glasses.

 

[digmor crusher]

I think that's a little harsh on him. Everyone were sub-par in the 1st game, but I think PK played a fairly good two-way game in the remaining games of the series. Weaver and him were by far the two most effective defensemen in their own zone, and while PK may have not contributed offensively as much as he wanted to, I think he did well in other areas.

He's been so unfairly labelled as a liability in his own zone that people automatically assume he's worthless unless he puts up point. I think he looked great in game 6, most definitely the best player from the Habs' side, but the forwards couldn't generate much on their own, which made it easy to shut him down.

Before tonight, PK was the most used defenseman of all teams left in the playoffs. He lead his team in points, something that doesn't apply to any of Doughty, Keith or McDonagh. He was the driving force of his team, something that yet again hardly apply to any of the other defensemen. He ended the playoffs at +1, McDonagh is at -2 - and he played over 3 minutes more of ES time per game than McDonagh.

Not a liability in his own zone for the most part but a lot of times he tries too hard, tries to do too much and ends up coughing up the puck. I would take Doughty over PK any day, not as much flash but solid at both ends and exactly the type of dman you need to win the cup. PK may get there some day but he's not here yet.

 

[Lebowski]

I don't believe PK was particularly any slower than before though. He never was in the mold of Doughty or Keith speed skating wise. He always looked like a powerful skater, not a speedy one.
I think PK will remain around his 215-220 frame anyways, it is an ideal weight imo. His body composition could still change, from the pictures I recall seeing, he still had some ''baby fat'' he could shed.
Furthermore, if his weight did affect his speed, then it would also have played a part in reducing his agility and we saw none of that. He still moved around the ice very well, skated around players, blew by them when he did his classic ''go back tight around the net and speed off'' move, he could still skate circles around his opponents in the offensive zone. All of those things would have been affected if his bulking up had affected his speed, ie his skating.

I honestly don't think his gain of 10-15lbs that was probably cut in half anyways by mid-season affected him.

Those are all fair points, honestly, I'm not trying to come off as the one holding the one truth. I do think he isn't quite as nimble as he was in his couple of first season, or compared to his Norris season, for that matter, and this is probably where our opinions divert the most and thus makes it impossible to come to a consensus down the road. From what I saw, and based on what we know (implying possible lingering injuries, hidden from the public eye), I don't see any other explanations other than a lack of conditioning, which, knowing the guy, seems pretty unlikely, or overdoing it in the gym in certain areas.

But again, this is just me spitballing.

Maybe in your world but not the best hockey minds in the worlds opinion when he sat for all but 1 game in the Olympics. And that was just Canadians, did not include any other nationalities. So no, far from best blueliner in league and if anybody really thinks that, time to take off the Habs colored glasses.

I like how you sound so categorical, and even implies there's a huge gap from Subban to whoever you are implying, while Subban could easily be argued to be the best defensemen in the league over the last two seasons.

Not a liability in his own zone for the most part but a lot of times he tries too hard, tries to do too much and ends up coughing up the puck. I would take Doughty over PK any day, not as much flash but solid at both ends and exactly the type of dman you need to win the cup. PK may get there some day but he's not here yet.

He still has some issues with his decision making at times, there's no denying that. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the most effective at his position, everything taken into consideration, 95% of the time, which I think he absolutely is. He still has a lot of growing to do, and the good news is that he still has a lot of room to grow as well. Markov is seen as a great two-way guy, and Subban was miles ahead of him defensively ALL playoffs long. Gorges, known as a specialist and one of the best in his own zone, wasn't nearly as effective as Subban. Emelin, let's not bother bringing him up.

 

[digmor crusher]

Those are all fair points, honestly, I'm not trying to come off as the one holding the one truth. I do think he isn't quite as nimble as he was in his couple of first season, or compared to his Norris season, for that matter, and this is probably where our opinions divert the most and thus makes it impossible to come to a consensus down the road. From what I saw, and based on what we know (implying possible lingering injuries, hidden from the public eye), I don't see any other explanations other than a lack of conditioning, which, knowing the guy, seems pretty unlikely, or overdoing it in the gym in certain areas.

But again, this is just me spitballing.



I like how you sound so categorical, and even implies there's a huge gap from Subban to whoever you are implying, while Subban could easily be argued to be the best defensemen in the league over the last two seasons.



He still has some issues with his decision making at times, there's no denying that. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the most effective at his position, everything taken into consideration, 95% of the time, which I think he absolutely is. He still has a lot of growing to do, and the good news is that he still has a lot of room to grow as well. Markov is seen as a great two-way guy, and Subban was miles ahead of him defensively ALL playoffs long. Gorges, known as a specialist and one of the best in his own zone, wasn't nearly as effective as Subban. Emelin, let's not bother bringing him up.

It could be argued that he was the best dman in the league over the past 2 years but you would loose that argument. i don't think you could find any hockey analyst that would agree with that, many thought he was not worthy of the Norris. And again we go back to the Olympics, if Babcock thought he was the best dman he would have played more than 1 game. I believe I will defer to Babcocks opinion over yours.