Post-Game Talk: Stuart S14inner

[Drivesaitl]

Alright on the first point... passing is not finishing. That's a fair point.

As for the latter, I don't know that is fair. Hemsky was literally our only singular offensive threat in an era where headshots were not only ~allowed, but were encouraged by salary structures and a very lax DOPS. He was a huge target out there... and once you got Hemsky off his game (or out of the game, since getting hit hard made him play better in general)... then you'd win the game cuz Reasoner and Horcoff weren't going to drive a line and Smyth had nobody to get him the puck.

I'll leave Drai out of this (he's physically an ox), but McD and Hall... I mean we have no idea how long these guys would last if they were being checked in the head every night rather than shoulder to shoulder. McD I think would be fine, he has eyes in the back of his head... but Hall, Eberle? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have suffered a similar fate as Hemsky... well maybe not Eberle, he wouldn't know a corner to save his life (which is exactly my point).

Strange point to make. Eberle will have passed every career milestone Hemmer ever had and partly through picking his spots a lot better and allowing himself to play a long career. i don't get the distinction either that you are making as Eberle played at the peak standing on the bus watching other players get maimed timeframe of the Oilers. There wasn't anybody coming to the aid of Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Gagner, etc. They were on their own. To more of an extent than Hemsky even was.

Next, you cannot ascertain whether it was specific open ice headshots or being sent crashing head first into the boards that sustained the concussions. With some incidents of open ice hits it can be very clear that its headshot. But most of the egregious hits, the Regehr hits for instance was sending Hemsky running through the boards. Some of those were high. But they didn't even need to be to put Hemsky in precarious tumbles into the boards. Sure the NHL has clamped down on that. But with a player like Eberle he learned to avoid the worst. I don't disrespect that as his value on ice was scoring goals, not being in the hospital.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I used to think Bouch was John Carlsson


But he's starting to resemble more of a Sergei Zubov / Phil Housley hybrid

 

[Drivesaitl]

Cmon Drive
I think you're way off here

I probably need more specific feedback on it then. I'm not spotting where I am offbase. But let me outline some general thoughts on the matter. I think it would be dishonest of me to change my view on a lot of the hits that Hemsky took. Because at the time of those hits I was imploring that he not make himself a target out there taking hits in bad areas close to the end boards.

That Hemsky suffered is tragic, and I'm familiar with the articles and how he and his life were impacted. But I see that more as the barbaric nature of Hockey, or Football, that players can be maimed and irreparably harmed. These are bloodsports and we do follow them. If I was a perfect individual I would have stopped following football the moment Jason Tucker was paralyzed. or in hockey in the Boogard era and several doctors prescribing him painkillers so he can keep wrecking his brain and the NHL and teams being OK with this while Bettman refutes brain injury claims everytime. The NHL deserved that I stopped following it. At least I stopped paying for it.

But here we are on the board following the league and sport, and selfishly I guess, that allows such maiming of players to occur. I'm not in favor of that, and I don't support the NHL in anyway monetarily, and refused doing that decades ago. Thats my own stand, also that I'm cheap. lol. I won't pay these prices and won't support how hockey is in Canada. I stopped going to Junior hockey decades ago as well because they were the leagues that were creating enforcers out of kids and telling and expecting them to fight. Those things are awful.

So in context you might now know what my entire take is but I wanted to answer to it. I feel sorry for Hemsky. I feel sorry for any pro sports athlete that has had their health robbed. I don't feel differently than others about that and I've actually taken stands against it through time. People reading me know that.

 

[RegDunlop]

I probably need more specific feedback on it then. I'm not spotting where I am offbase. But let me outline some general thoughts on the matter. I think it would be dishonest of me to change my view on a lot of the hits that Hemsky took. Because at the time of those hits I was imploring that he not make himself a target out there taking hits in bad areas close to the end boards.

That Hemsky suffered is tragic, and I'm familiar with the articles and how he and his life were impacted. But I see that more as the barbaric nature of Hockey, or Football, that players can be maimed and irreparably harmed. These are bloodsports and we do follow them. If I was a perfect individual I would have stopped following football the moment Jason Tucker was paralyzed. or in hockey in the Boogard era and several doctors prescribing him painkillers so he can keep wrecking his brain and the NHL and teams being OK with this while Bettman refutes brain injury claims everytime.

But here we are on the board following the league and sport, and selfishly I guess, that allows such maiming of players to occur. I'm not in favor of that, and I don't support the NHL in anyway monetarily, and refused doing that decades ago. Thats my own stand, also that I'm cheap. lol. I won't pay these prices and won't support how hockey is in Canada. I stopped going to Junior hockey decades ago as well because they were the leagues that were creating enforcers out of kids and telling and expecting them to fight. Those things are awful.

So in context you might now know what my entire take is but I wanted to answer to it. I feel sorry for Hemsky. I feel sorry for any pro sports athlete that has had their health robbed. I don't feel differently than others about that and I've actually taken stands against all of it through time. People reading me know that.

Thanks. No, I get all that and as a similar aged original Oiler fan, I agree. Hemsky absolutely put himself in vulnerable positions. Often. Even that clip on Reagher showed that.

But the argument was (at least what I'm responding to) is about his skill. Then it morphed into whether he could play today. This is where I think you stray. To say he was only a footnote in our history is disingenuous. He was a star player that we groomed. And his stats prove it.

Anyway thanks for the convo! FTR I think he would be deadly in today's game

 

[Drivesaitl]

Heh, that's the reason for my status. I got you, go to 1:27:

This is exhibit A for people being seduced by highlights. Smyth scored 3X as many goals as Hemsky, they all counted the same, and were all on the board just the same. Style points don't count, and they don't tend to count in my analysis. Good entertainment, sure, memories, sure, but so many people would always say "Smyth scoring just garbage goals" and they were often Hemsky fans doing that. I'll take the guy with 400 goals thanks.

 

[McBooya42]

Let me explain.

I've always respected players that can hit, and that know how and where to take a hit. This is consistent throughout my views on players. hemsky was not one of those players. Far too many times he put himself in positions where his head, or he would be sent crashing to the boards.

Sacrificing yourself to injury isn't smart, and it isn't value to club. hemsky could not take, or reverse hit like other players can. I don't worry about any of McDrai taking or giving a hit because they can. not much was served from Hemsky taking those hits, and it wasn't matters either of taking the hit to make a play. Almost all the times Hemsky was being nailed into the boards he was laying there while opponent took the puck. Theres a lot of nuance in physical play and what advisable, and what is not, and what advisable for different types of players. Hemsky, jmo, wasn't strong enough to handle the hits he was taking, particularly from larger D.

Not comparing the two, at all, but neither were players like Yamamoto and I'm using him to highlight that I am consistent on the matter. just because Yams had a willingness to take hits and go flying wasn't big in my books. it was negligible value. However the player that takes a hit and still has the puck, or makes the play before being hit, thats different.

Now of course one could say they respect the bravery of Hemsky, and no doubt he was, and there can be valor in that. But there wasn't necessarily a lot of benefit to player or team in how Hemsky was getting nailed. He was skilled enough in skating ability to avoid some of those hits and refused to. Ultimately its this kind of thing that ended his career prematurely and limited his peak prematurely.

Hemsky was a true beauty to watch when he wasn't getting hit, yeah. So creative and smart with so many things but he put himself in bad positions so much (and paid for it). Different hockey back then though, and he would probably have excelled in today's game. One of my all time favs.

This is exhibit A for people being seduced by highlights. Smyth scored 3X as many goals as Hemsky, they all counted the same, and were all on the board just the same. Style points don't count, and they don't tend to count in my analysis. Good entertainment, sure, memories, sure, but so many people would always say "Smyth scoring just garbage goals" and they were often Hemsky fans doing that. I'll take the guy with 400 goals thanks.

Much easier to put the puck in the net when you're 3 feet away. Different type of player who excelled in his front office. He paid for it too though, and you know it. Also one of my all time favs.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Thanks. No, I get all that and as a similar aged original Oiler fan, I agree. Hemsky absolutely put himself in vulnerable positions. Often. Even that clip on Reagher showed that.

But the argument was (at least what I'm responding to) is about his skill. Then it morphed into whether he could play today. This is where I think you stray. To say he was only a footnote in our history is disingenuous. He was a star player that we groomed. And his stats prove it.

Anyway thanks for the convo! FTR I think he would be deadly in today's game

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm an imperfect beast. haha wouldn't be the first time I threw shade on Hemsky. I just think out of honesty given what my reputation was speaking about the player it would be wrong, and dishonest, to change it now.

Further i put premium on goals scored, always have. Scoring is the hardest thing to do in hockey. EV scoring even moreso. Smyth afairc is 7th highest scorer amongst players that have been Oilers and Hemsky is way down the list.

That said I do appreciate cerebral playmakers like Weight, he was the best at that, as well as being a solid 2 way center that was hard to play against. That guy was gold to me. So was Smyth.

As far as Skill thats an interesting convo because the NHL also has evolved. There used to be one NJ Devils or Minnesota Wild. Teams are much more adept now at scheming players and taking part of their game and chances away. Hemsky would also be exposed to todays superior team play and tighter checking. Hemsky didn't play in the dead puck era. he played when things were better for him. Hemsky could've struggle in dead puck era.

But my specific comments on Hemsky production today on the Oilers were detailed and reasonably well argued. For one that Hemsky would not find himself on the Oilers current first unit PP. No way he would be. That would greatly impact his production. its unlikely he'd be on a first line either. He'd either be with Drai or in a topnine config.

Jut so I'm clear too all of Drai, McD, Nuge, Hyman, Kane are better players. They are all on this team. I could have gotten it wrong but I was speaking as if the premise was Hemsky on this team.

 

[RegDunlop]

Yeah me too - I was speaking about if he could play on today's Oil, but also disputing your statement that he's just a footnote.

As for our opinions, I'll have to disagree. His game would fit this team, in this era perfectly I think. And yes - top 6!

Cheers!

 

[Drivesaitl]

Actually there's not much difference and its mostly due to games played Smyth is 9th overall in team scoring, Weight 10th, and Hemsky 11th.

Smyth - 971GP 296G 335A 631P .65PPG
Hemsky - 652GP 142G 335A 477P .73PPG

Where is this Hemsky not in Oilers stats when he out produced points per game and would have passed Smyth on the list if he wasn't missing about 20+ games in multiple seasons. And Hemsky was a play maker and Smyth was a net front on the PP, citing the goal difference is irrelevant. And you completely missed my point.

Edmonton Oilers All-time Points Leaders | StatMuse

Wayne Gretzky has collected the most career points for the Oilers, with 1,669 points.

www.statmuse.com

When I say scoring I mean goals. Hemsky had over 400NHL goals. Hemmer had 174. How is that similar?

 

[GOilers88]

What Vegas demonstrated is goalies are voodoo and get hot and cold. Have as many in the stable as you can. That said Adin Hill has many attributes of what I think of as a battle goalie. A guy that stays in plays, uses any method to stop GA etc. Scouts in present day tend to get fixated on form more than who the goalie is, and what the temperament is. One wonders whether guys like Billy Smith even make the league with todays goalie scouting and coaching.

Adin Hill is throwback and represented a southpaw to McDrai and company who couldn't figure him out.

I kept hearing the book was out on Skinner, but on the opposite side of the coin I'd argue the book on Hill could just as likely come out after he plays a full season as a starter. Having a guy step into the playoffs and take you to the Cup is amazing, but it also works for him in that nobody really had a read on him. Now that he's a name, things could change. Though I admit he is a talented player, absolutely.

Fully agree with you though, in that goaltending now really does seem to be voodoo sans 3 or 4 guys who are just the elite of the elite.

What do you have against McDavid? He is a good player.

Understatement of the decade

 

[CROTT]

When I say scoring I mean goals. Hemsky had over 400NHL goals. Hemmer had 174. How is that similar?

Yes, I alluded to that in my post that their different players and Hemsky shouldn't be discredited for his playmaking be cause Smyth isn't Ovechkin... But I never citied Smyth alone as the one that couldn't finish it was more Oilers players in general. I'm sure you being an opinionated but reasonable person could admit Smyth missed some chances all players do. And Hemsky helped Smyth score some of those goals, its Smyth wasn't doing end to end rushes.

 

[Soundwave]

Lol... I'm totally with you. I'm a goalie... y'all are crazy!

In seriousness though, and I don't need to pick on you @Drivesaitl, but you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You hate soft players that avoid contact, and here you are victim-shaming Hemsky for putting himself in danger by playing hard and being willing to take hits to make plays.

And it stinks, because if you go back and read that article I posted... anyone who was around to see Hemsky, especially those who only remember the end of his career, should go and read it... well then you'd realize what a tremendous personal toll he took for his team and our entertainment.

Aleš Hemský : The meaning of life | Stories | Bez frází

Story od Ales Hemsky, former NHL player whose slick hands could deke anybody in the hockey world but series of concussions had ended his career early and led him to depression.

www.bezfrazi.cz

He honestly should sue the NHL.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes, I alluded to that in my post that their different players and Hemsky shouldn't be discredited for his playmaking be cause Smyth isn't Ovechkin... But I never citied Smyth alone as the one that couldn't finish it was more Oilers players in general. I'm sure you being an opinionated but reasonable person could admit Smyth missed some chances all players do. And Hemsky helped Smyth score some of those goals, its Smyth wasn't doing end to end rushes.

Did you watch a lot of those games. Smyth never required great setups. All he required was a point shot getting on goal, a rebound, a puck being sent to net area. Smyth would find the puck. Smyth was also an underappreciated transition player. He was somebody that could take crude dumps out of zone by our defenders and skate into those pucks as if they were perfectly delivered.

Didn't matter whether it was Horcoff, Hemsky, or a D getting the puck to Smyth in front of the net. The pass didn't need to be pretty, it didn't even need to be a pass, Smyth would find the puck. That was the thing Hemsky was often going for art where Smyth wanted the volume of pucks being delivered. If Smyth was being served like Hyman he could score 50 goals in this league. Smyth didn't have the ideal service once Weight was no longer on the club.

In anycase alltime NHL scoring Ryan Smyth is 122. Not bad. If you want to consider points instead as the best hallmark of Hemsky is he's 419 alltime and dropping on that list. Hardly even notable. Worse Hemmer isn't even on the NHL alltime list of scorers. They keep it up to 200 goals. He didn't even make that mark.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I kept hearing the book was out on Skinner, but on the opposite side of the coin I'd argue the book on Hill could just as likely come out after he plays a full season as a starter. Having a guy step into the playoffs and take you to the Cup is amazing, but it also works for him in that nobody really had a read on him. Now that he's a name, things could change. Though I admit he is a talented player, absolutely.

Fully agree with you though, in that goaltending now really does seem to be voodoo sans 3 or 4 guys who are just the elite of the elite.


Understatement of the decade

The big book was the team with greater consistent team defending, playoff and regular season, won out Aidin and abetted by a goaltender that also stepped up. Contributing factors included losing the EV scoring battle; crucial team defending breakdowns especially game 6; coaching fail to counter a dominating outscoring of line 2; a few untimely penalties; and also losing the goaltending battle.

Biggest course correction post Woodcroft under Knoblauch has been full buy-in to team defending especially superlative home plate defending with disciplined coverage; weak side support; centre backtrack. This area was the razor fine difference in last season's loss to the eventually Cup champions.

 

[Cloned]

The big book was the team with greater consistent team defending, playoff and regular season, won out Aidin and abetted by a goaltender that also stepped up. Contributing factors included losing the EV scoring battle; crucial team defending breakdowns especially game 6; coaching fail to counter a dominating outscoring of line 2; a few untimely penalties; and also losing the goaltending battle.

Biggest course correction post Woodcroft under Knoblauch has been full buy-in to team defending especially superlative home plate defending with disciplined coverage; weak side support; centre backtrack. This area was the razor fine difference in last season's loss to the eventually Cup champions.

80/20

 

[snag]

Have to laugh when I see the streak has more win than the Shatk season

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

80/20

Absolutely player execution is 80% in the world's fastest sport and reactive mistakes are costly. Re-watch game 6 for evidence!

 

[Cloned]

Absolutely player execution is 80% in the world's fastest sport and reactive mistakes are costly. Re-watch game 6 for evidence!

Knoblauch has made a significant difference.

Coaching matters!

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Knoblauch has made a significant difference.

Coaching matters!

Gonna try to not derail another thread. Knoblauch's been great and like we saw with your last saviour coach haha this team's talent has regressed to their talent after deep ditch poor play in which there was a significant discrepancy between expected goal and actual goal results. If anything Knoblauch distils the game down to very basic levels (might be aided by his Education training).

Hockey's a high speed, collision sport with an incredible high level of random. That makes it a game of mistakes. I'm over the moon happy with this team finally embracing its team defending commitment, work ethic and structure. Credit to Knoblauch, Coffey and Steward for their work to instil it like Cassidy did in taking over a well steeled Vegas team. EDIT: Forgot the goalie coach!

Back to Skinner who deserves the attention of this thread!

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

This team could be even more terrifying

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

I'm sure glad this thread celebrating 14 straight wins is now a debate on the merits of Ales Hemsky's game & place in Oiler's lore because somebody mentioned his name.

I'd sure hate for it to have it's own thread where we all wouldn't get the pleasure of seeing all these walls of text page after page unless we were to specifically click on that thread.

This is a real time saver.

 

[MessierII]

Is this a skinner thread still? Start a Hemsky debate thread.

 

[McBooya42]

Yes, I alluded to that in my post that their different players and Hemsky shouldn't be discredited for his playmaking be cause Smyth isn't Ovechkin... But I never citied Smyth alone as the one that couldn't finish it was more Oilers players in general. I'm sure you being an opinionated but reasonable person could admit Smyth missed some chances all players do. And Hemsky helped Smyth score some of those goals, its Smyth wasn't doing end to end rushes.

Like I said (sorry to interject), it's easier to score from 3 feet away. A lot of Smyth's goals came from a Hemsky pass or shot for sure.

 

[KCC]

This team could be even more terrifying

Even more terrifying is the fact that McDavid has been very quiet points wise (by his standards) during the streak and the PP has been sub par. If both can get going combined with what the team has been getting. Oh man.

 

[Stoneman89]

PK doubling down on his laughable comments. Can’t take the heat from Oiler fans.

Gee PK, thanks for advising that we need to translate all this into playoff success. Duh. We never could have figured that out in all this time. But at least we are enjoying this current success, just like everyone else was enjoying our misery at the beginning of the season.