News Article: Stempniak Wanted to Return, Jets Chose Youth Movement

[Romang67]

He is comparable to Thor, Peluso and Slater. He is also the only real option beyond Copp.

That's what I said!

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

In my brain there was a sentence about injuries.

One injury away from top 9.

If our 4th line is Thor-Copp-Armia there are 2 options before Thor .... or beside him. If they are playing for the Moose they are still available for call-up along with 2-3 others. That will be a difference between this year and last. Although there were options in the A in previous years who were not used.

He is comparable to Thor, Peluso and Slater. He is also the only real option beyond Copp.

Not necessarily. Burmi is also a possibility there. I think that would be a waste of Burmi's skills but it is a possibility.

Pretty sure Cormier, Hali, Fraser & MacWilliam are slated for the Moose.

 

[jetman]

You guys are all talking like having a bad 4th line was the reason why we weren't Stanley Cup contenders the past couple of years. It wasn't and everyone knew that. I bet they simply signed who they could without expending much effort into actually looking to improve the 4th line because the effort was better spent elsewhere.

Now that we actually are starting to look like a contending team, I wouldn't be surprised if we start using a much better 4th line. (Letting Slater go was step #1 on this.)

 

[CaptainChef]

Galiardi was the only one I recall. Regardless, the Jets have had what is arguably the worst 4th line in hockey for 4 years and if Beyak is right, it'll be 5. That should be the easiest line to fix.

Slater - 3 years
Thor - 3 years
Peluso - 2 years (twice)
Tried to retain Glass

I am skeptical about the 4th line for good reason.

We could see Thor - Cormier - Peluso, if not at the start of the year then later.

Totally. Management had tons of time & opportunities to try and improve the 4th line. Appears to be a major block there in what they want -- seem satisfied with a bunch of grinders who can't even compete against the worst opposition for 3 mins a night without being dominated.

There is absolutely no doubt that we have the talent & capability to vastly improve that 4th line now. If we don't do it by playing capable rookies instead of these grinders, we should be bringing in Stemp and/or Tlusty because I'm sure they can be signed for 1-2 years at next to nothing.

I am very skeptical of what direction management will take us when it relates to the 4th line because their track record over the last 4 years has been dismal.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I like Stempniak but I also understand not signing him and sending a clear message to your farm guys that there is a spot for you here for all the work you have been putting in

But wasn't Stempniak playing on the 3rd line when he was here?

 

[StronGeer]

I like Stempniak but I also understand not signing him and sending a clear message to your farm guys that there is a spot for you here for all the work you have been putting in

But wasn't Stempniak playing on the 3rd line when he was here?

Yep. But that still sends the message that there's a new top 9 spot open. Burmi replaces Frolik and now it's a dogfight to replace Stemp.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

There is a rationale, it's just outdated.

But I don't see any rationale of letting Fraser or Halischuk play. Even in today's NHL, fourth liners usually are one or more of the following:
- competent NHL players who could easily play in the top9
- fighters
- pests / agitators / 'energy players'
- hard-hitting gritty 'intimidators'
- PK specialists
- faceoff specialists
- defensive specialists
- veterans who can bring leadership (and are usually a bit over-the-hill)
That's the status quo in the NHL, I think more than 90% of current NHL fourth line players can be identified with one or more of the above, and while it might not be correct, there exists a rationale / an explanation why these type of players are used.

The point is: Halischuk and Fraser fulfill neither.
While I don't think that Peluso should have a regular NHL job, I can easily tell you the reason why he has a regular NHL job.
However, I can't think of a single reason for Halischuk or Fraser. Why would anybody give them a regular NHL job?

We're not only armchair GMs here, we're armchair owners in a way, because if the GM makes too many mistakes, we want to fire him.
So let's imagine: you're the boss, and two of your employees each make a mistake.
With employee A, you immediately see why he made the mistake - you recognize that, judging by outdated criteria, the decision he made would have been the optimal one. Furthermore, you know that several (but not all) of your competitors are still using the same outdated criteria. So you just need to give him an update, basically.
With employee B, you have no idea how he could have come up with the decision he made. There are no criteria or combination of criteria by which his decision would have been the optimal one. It's like he wrote all the options on a piece of paper and threw a dart at it.
While the impact of their mistakes might be similar, which employee do you trust more going forward?

Employee A just gave a regular NHL job to Peluso or Gazdic or Scott.
Employee B just gave a regular NHL job to Halischuk or Fraser or Cormier.

Good post.
I don't think it is quite as clear cut as Employees A & B though. I think we have those 2 employees collaborating and reinforcing one another's decisions.

I also think we are in the process of moving on from that. Cormier, Hali & Fraser were signed to play for the Moose. They are on 2 way contracts so we could still see them in the NHL. They are being used as a safety net if some of the prospects don't work out. But if things go according to plan they will spend the season in the AHL. I don't know whether they will be called up ahead of prospects when there are injuries. That would be a slightly different mistake. The experienced gained by prospects when called up is a valuable part of their development.

 

[puck stoppa]

Yep. But that still sends the message that there's a new top 9 spot open. Burmi replaces Frolik and now it's a dogfight to replace Stemp.

They are not dumb, they think Ehlers or Petan can replace him in that role and contribute more.

 

[garret9]

You guys are all talking like having a bad 4th line was the reason why we weren't Stanley Cup contenders the past couple of years. It wasn't and everyone knew that. I bet they simply signed who they could without expending much effort into actually looking to improve the 4th line because the effort was better spent elsewhere.

Now that we actually are starting to look like a contending team, I wouldn't be surprised if we start using a much better 4th line. (Letting Slater go was step #1 on this.)

It's not THE reason, but it's part of the reason.

Chicago runs a skilled 4th line, which they use as a defensive zone specialist line, which frees up everyone else to play almost purely scoring situational minutes, and is a major reason why they do so well.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I don't think any team runs a skilled 4th line. If there where such skilled players they wouldn't be playing on the 4th line

 

[puck stoppa]

You guys are all talking like having a bad 4th line was the reason why we weren't Stanley Cup contenders the past couple of years. It wasn't and everyone knew that. I bet they simply signed who they could without expending much effort into actually looking to improve the 4th line because the effort was better spent elsewhere.

Now that we actually are starting to look like a contending team, I wouldn't be surprised if we start using a much better 4th line. (Letting Slater go was step #1 on this.)

One thing is that our top 6 got burnt out by the end of the season as they were relied upon so heavily. Even if a 4th line can play 3-4 minutes per game more that adds up over the course of the season. Our top guys were injured or looked tired, like they had nothing left in the tank and not having a reliable 4th line to take on some minutes could be the reason why.

 

[Board Bard]

Employee A just gave a regular NHL job to Peluso or Gazdic or Scott.
Employee B just gave a regular NHL job to Halischuk or Fraser or Cormier.

I'd start looking for Employee C.

 

[Howard Chuck]

It's not THE reason, but it's part of the reason.

Chicago runs a skilled 4th line, which they use as a defensive zone specialist line, which frees up everyone else to play almost purely scoring situational minutes, and is a major reason why they do so well.

What a hugely telling chart! Thanks!

 

[jetman]

It's not THE reason, but it's part of the reason.

Chicago runs a skilled 4th line, which they use as a defensive zone specialist line, which frees up everyone else to play almost purely scoring situational minutes, and is a major reason why they do so well.

Yup. But like I said, fixing the 4th line wouldn't really have meant much any year except maybe last year. I am not saying that Chevy and co. has ran everything perfectly, I am just saying it isn't really fair being so down on them, when it clearly wasn't and shouldn't have been a top priority.

If they don't do something with it in the next couple years, I'm with you guys though.

 

[garret9]

Yup. But like I said, fixing the 4th line wouldn't really have meant much any year except maybe last year. I am not saying that Chevy and co. has ran everything perfectly, I am just saying it isn't really fair being so down on them, when it clearly wasn't and shouldn't have been a top priority.

If they don't do something with it in the next couple years, I'm with you guys though.

Jets were really, really close to playoffs previously... and there is a domino effect when you add good players.

Some extra depth could have gone a long way.

 

[garret9]

I don't think any team runs a skilled 4th line. If there where such skilled players they wouldn't be playing on the 4th line

A bit disingenuous to original the point and semantical.

4th liners are not as good as players higher up in the depth charts, obviously, because as you state, they would be higher up in the depth chart *** provided that the team properly evaluates the better players ***.

However, because fourth liners have a lower impact on the game and they are not as skilled as lines higher up, we often see teams attempt to fill their bottom lines using factors beyond a player's individual impact on the ice.

Example: Many look for "energy lines". The thinking is that the line does things like hits and fights, which in turn causes the higher lines to try harder, making those lines do better. They hope that this added impact outweighs the lost impact of not going for better players.

That's what people are discussing in terms of skilled 4th line.

It's the difference between a combination of Wright, Slater, Thorburn, Glass, Peluso versus something like a combination of Stempniak, Bergenheim, Boyes, Goc, Tlusty, etc.

The purpose of the first group is to bleed as little as possible, while energizing the higher lines.
The purpose of the second group is to take advantage of other teams dressing the first group.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yup. But like I said, fixing the 4th line wouldn't really have meant much any year except maybe last year. I am not saying that Chevy and co. has ran everything perfectly, I am just saying it isn't really fair being so down on them, when it clearly wasn't and shouldn't have been a top priority.

If they don't do something with it in the next couple years, I'm with you guys though.

Except when you see how easily and cheaply it could have been done it becomes inexcusable to have not done it. Who knows exactly what difference it might have made in any year? It seems to me I remember having come close to winning the Southleast Div one year. Maybe we could have had a PO appearance and against a weaker opponent.

The next couple of years? That is taking this patience thing to an extreme! There is no excuse for not fixing it this year except perhaps that trying to fix it with rookies didn't work out, which I don't expect is what will happen in the end.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

@garret: Holy D-Zone deployment, Batman! Chicago's 4th line gets all the 'fun' assignments.

Stempniak - Copp - ??? might have allowed the Jets to do something similar. C'est la vie.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

@garret: Holy D-Zone deployment, Batman! Chicago's 4th line gets all the 'fun' assignments.

Stempniak - Copp - ??? might have allowed the Jets to do something similar. C'est la vie.

Just for fun
Burmi - Lowry - Stafford
Stemp - Copp - Tlusty
Are we sure which is the 3rd line and which is the 4th?
OK, we will all come up with the same answer but the margin is not very big.

 

[jetman]

Except when you see how easily and cheaply it could have been done it becomes inexcusable to have not done it. Who knows exactly what difference it might have made in any year? It seems to me I remember having come close to winning the Southleast Div one year. Maybe we could have had a PO appearance and against a weaker opponent.

The next couple of years? That is taking this patience thing to an extreme! There is no excuse for not fixing it this year except perhaps that trying to fix it with rookies didn't work out, which I don't expect is what will happen in the end.

A couple is 2. If it isn't fixed this year because of rookies not working out, then it better be fixed next year. Same boat as you there.

And all I can say about how easy/cheap it would be.... I don't know if it would be. Hindsight is 20/20. We don't know who and what sort of deals Chevy was going after that didn't work out. How different would our outlook be if the Setoguchi trade worked out, etc. Being a GM isn't a easy job, you have thousands of opinions being thrown at you and people pissed at you no matter what you do. I don't know how you can claim anything he does is inexcusable when you know almost nothing about what is happening behind the scenes. How many people would be calling for Chevy's head right now if the whole Kane situation was kept under wraps and the trade occurred at a seemingly random time?

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Now Peluso is an ECHL level player? Good God man, we get it, you don't like him. Your vitriol against him is bordering on ludicrous. He is a 4th line player and for the way he is being used on this team you are displaying far too much angst about him.

You should be pissed at the org for their team build philosophy (which seems to be an org mindset and not just a coaching one).

ECHL player?

That's where he would succeed. He was a 4th line forward at the AHL level with St. Louis and he certainly hasn't improved.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

A couple is 2. If it isn't fixed this year because of rookies not working out, then it better be fixed next year. Same boat as you there.

And all I can say about how easy/cheap it would be.... I don't know if it would be. Hindsight is 20/20. We don't know who and what sort of deals Chevy was going after that didn't work out. How different would our outlook be if the Setoguchi trade worked out, etc. Being a GM isn't a easy job, you have thousands of opinions being thrown at you and people pissed at you no matter what you do. I don't know how you can claim anything he does is inexcusable when you know almost nothing about what is happening behind the scenes. How many people would be calling for Chevy's head right now if the whole Kane situation was kept under wraps and the trade occurred at a seemingly random time?

We can only ever know what happened. The possibilities for things that did not happen are infinite. But yes being a GM is far from easy. The building a 4th line from FAs proposition looks easier this year than most because there have been so few FA signings but there were quite a few good 4th line candidates available late last year too. I'll speculate that Chevy made the decision to go with youth early. If he had known what would still be available and presumably cheap he might have decided differently. As it is though he is now sticking to his decision. To my eyes he is finally addressing it. I will be surprised and disappointed if we end up with Hali - Copp - Thor.

I don't know what is going on behind the scenes but I can see results. Saying that it is OK to have ignored the 4th line because the effort was being spent elsewhere doesn't stand up. Maybe ignored is the wrong word. He got Hali and Galiardi. I liked the Galiardi signing at the time. That was an attempt. A little feeble as it turned out. There were plenty here beating the drum for Stemp, Winnik, Goc and others who turned out much better than Galiardi. The bottom line is that it SHOULD be easy to fix the 4th line. Maybe the results so far show that it is not as easy as it looks. Maybe they show that Chevy hasn't tried hard enough.

 

[truck]

I don't think any team runs a skilled 4th line. If there where such skilled players they wouldn't be playing on the 4th line

Frolik, Michael
Kruger, Marcus

 

[jetman]

We can only ever know what happened. The possibilities for things that did not happen are infinite. But yes being a GM is far from easy. The building a 4th line from FAs proposition looks easier this year than most because there have been so few FA signings but there were quite a few good 4th line candidates available late last year too. I'll speculate that Chevy made the decision to go with youth early. If he had known what would still be available and presumably cheap he might have decided differently. As it is though he is now sticking to his decision. To my eyes he is finally addressing it. I will be surprised and disappointed if we end up with Hali - Copp - Thor.

I don't know what is going on behind the scenes but I can see results. Saying that it is OK to have ignored the 4th line because the effort was being spent elsewhere doesn't stand up. Maybe ignored is the wrong word. He got Hali and Galiardi. I liked the Galiardi signing at the time. That was an attempt. A little feeble as it turned out. There were plenty here beating the drum for Stemp, Winnik, Goc and others who turned out much better than Galiardi. The bottom line is that it SHOULD be easy to fix the 4th line. Maybe the results so far show that it is not as easy as it looks. Maybe they show that Chevy hasn't tried hard enough.

I agree. Good post.

 

[puck stoppa]

Frolik, Michael
Kruger, Marcus

Ummmm...... No.