Confirmed with Link: Soshnikov to St Louis for a 2019 4th Round Pick

[lifelonghockeyfan]

But who's spot do you see him taking?

JVR, Komarov, and probably Martin are three wingers that won't return next year. All LWers. Lou has no motivation to trade Leivo.

 

[Jtabo]

Hyman is a RW. He's playing his offwing, hence his struggles offensively.

Leivo will never play a game for us again.

Johnson is only ready for eval. minutes.

Our depth is:

JvR (Who Babcock doesn't like)
Marleau (Who's basically a 30 point guy now)
Komarov (4th Liner)

You are aware Marleau has 32 points in 59 games. On pace for 26 goals. But ya.....30 point guy now.

 

[4thline]

. Hunter last year took nothing but wingers for some stupid reason. We need C in our system or at least guys that could potentially become C.

We definitely need a couple more C's but holy hyperbole batman. Last year we took 1, one single winger.
2017 draft- 4D- 1C-1G-1W
2016 draft- 3D-2C-1G-5W
2015 Draft- 4D-1C-0G-4W
Overall 11D-4C-2G-10W

Top 93 picks-
5D-3C*-1G-4W *Brooks was 92, would currently be a 3rd rounder. Of the wingers taken- Bracco and Grundstrom could be defended as 1st round talents, Korshkov was is performing similarly to top russian picks like Gurianov and Nichushkin, our chance at having a Dadonov type player come over. Dzierkals is really the only one warranting skepticism.

Rest of Draft
6D-1C-1G-6W which really isn't that out of balance considering A. That their are twice as many professional wing slots than C in the organization, and B. That we have 1st+7th+8th overall C's in the organization under the age of 28. By and large our C needs are 4C and injury replacements, whereas with the C core in place we need a constant pipeline of serviceable cheap wingers around them. The only wing picks that I wouldn't really defend are Bobylev and Walker.

 

[thewave]

We definitely need a couple more C's but holy hyperbole batman. Last year we took 1, one single winger.
2017 draft- 4D- 1C-1G-1W
2016 draft- 3D-2C-1G-5W
2015 Draft- 4D-1C-0G-4W
Overall 11D-4C-2G-10W

Top 93 picks-
5D-3C*-1G-4W *Brooks was 92, would currently be a 3rd rounder. Of the wingers taken- Bracco and Grundstrom could be defended as 1st round talents, Korshkov was is performing similarly to top russian picks like Gurianov and Nichushkin, our chance at having a Dadonov type player come over. Dzierkals is really the only one warranting skepticism.

Rest of Draft
6D-1C-1G-6W which really isn't that out of balance considering A. That their are twice as many professional wing slots than C in the organization, and B. That we have 1st+7th+8th overall C's in the organization under the age of 28. By and large our C needs are 4C and injury replacements, whereas with the C core in place we need a constant pipeline of serviceable cheap wingers around them. The only wing picks that I wouldn't really defend are Bobylev and Walker.

I think that's optimistic at best. The amount of C taken is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. Look at all them wingers, why? D are important for sure though, especially to us.

 

[4thline]

I think that's optimistic at best. The amount of C taken is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. Look at all them wingers, why? D are important for sure though, especially to us.

I explained that. In a vacuum you have twice as many wing spots as Centres. That's reason 1, roster slots. There's 4 AHL C spots in any given year. 1 will likely be filled by a veteran. So three. But we're not in a vacuum. We likely have our top 3 C's for the next 5-10 years already on the roster, and they'll likely take up ~20% of the cap. That's reason 2. Need. We don't need C's in volume like we do Wings.

I agree that we could use more C prospects, but it's not like Hunter drafted "nothing but wingers"

 

[thewave]

I explained that. In a vacuum you have twice as many wing spots as Centres. That's reason 1, roster slots. There's 4 AHL C spots in any given year. 1 will likely be filled by a veteran. So three. But we're not in a vacuum. We likely have our top 3 C's for the next 5-10 years already on the roster, and they'll likely take up ~20% of the cap. That's reason 2. Need. We don't need C's in volume like we do Wings.

I agree that we could use more C prospects, but it's not like Hunter drafted "nothing but wingers"

Statistically look at how many listed C's play wing in the NHL. They get put in the system as whatever position they are drafted in. You are way more likely to win with taking C's. You really just have to trust that I know what I am talking about at this point. You can research it yourself though.

For instance look at our roster.. We have 11 C's of 28 spots...

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Fogelhund]

Normally we preach, draft Best Player Available...and now, we are talking about drafting by position.... All else being equal, you'd love the C's, but it seems that the Leafs haven't thought them to be equals.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Leivo must be out of his mind...he asks for the trade and Sosh is the one that gets dealt.

LMAO.

 

[thewave]

Normally we preach, draft Best Player Available...and now, we are talking about drafting by position.... All else being equal, you'd love the C's, but it seems that the Leafs haven't thought them to be equals.

BPA is always subjective. The reality is statistic probability and the odds favor D men and G's in 15-60. C in the first 15. It's just the way it goes man, don't know what to tell you but of course there are exceptions to the rule like say an exceptional D in the top 15 or C that slide into the 15-30 range. That's going to happen and I addressed that.

Go look at the 2017 picks. Teams are already adopting this method.

25 D or C were taken in the 1st round
1 Goalies
5 Wingers
8 Wingers in the 2nd Round

2017 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia

 

[Gary Nylund]

They already started selling the future when they did the Boyle trade. The cupboards are gonna get empty.

LMAO. We just traded a guy for a pick and you think this thread is the appropriate place to express your paranoia about us selling the future by trading away all our picks?

Maybe this thread should be titled "Panic City". I've only read a couple of pages, I wonder how many other gems I'm missing out on?

 

[4thline]

Statistically look at how many listed C's play wing in the NHL. They get put in the system as whatever position they are drafted in. You are way more likely to win with taking C's. You really just have to trust that I know what I am talking about at this point. You can research it yourself though.

For instance look at our roster.. We have 11 C's of 28 spots...

I actually laughed out loud at work.

Here's some research
2nd Round Drafted Forwards Top 50 in Scoring
27 Listed Wings ~15 Listed C playing at C ~8 Listed C either fully converted or playing swing/ not established at C

3rd round (36- started getting into fringe players/ call ups)
19 Listed Wings 8 Listed C's playing at C, ~9 Listed C either fully converted or playing swing/ Not established

4th round (24 players)
14 listed wings 4 Listed C's playing at C, ~6 you get the drift

5th round (24)
14 Wing 4 C, 6 List C playing wing

6th round (20)
14 Wing, 2C, 4 List C Playing W

7th round (10)
7 Wing, 2C, 1 List C playing W.


Fairly quick and dirty but I think reason enough that I don't "have to trust that you know what you're talking about" lol

 

[thewave]

I actually laughed out loud at work.

Here's some research
2nd Round Drafted Forwards Top 50 in Scoring
27 Listed Wings ~15 Listed C playing at C ~8 Listed C either fully converted or playing swing/ not established at C

3rd round (36- started getting into fringe players/ call ups)
19 Listed Wings 8 Listed C's playing at C, ~9 Listed C either fully converted or playing swing/ Not established

4th round (24 players)
14 listed wings 4 Listed C's playing at C, ~6 you get the drift

5th round (24)
14 Wing 4 C, 6 List C playing wing

6th round (20)
14 Wing, 2C, 4 List C Playing W

7th round (10)
7 Wing, 2C, 1 List C playing W.


Fairly quick and dirty but I think reason enough that I "have to trust that you know what you're talking about" lol

Source? This information looks wrong.

 

[4thline]

Source? This information looks wrong.

NHL.com - Stats

Drop down to change draft round. Of course I was quickly eyeballing things to get counts. I know there are some players erroneously labeled at W that developed into C's, and probably some listed C's that ended up as swing men. But the weight of things is that your chicken littling over late rounders is just as unfounded as the trust we should supposedly give you.

 

[Fogelhund]

BPA is always subjective. The reality is statistic probability and the odds favor D men and G's in 15-60. C in the first 15. It's just the way it goes man, don't know what to tell you but of course there are exceptions to the rule like say an exceptional D in the top 15 or C that slide into the 15-30 range. That's going to happen and I addressed that.

Go look at the 2017 picks. Teams are already adopting this method.

25 D or C were taken in the 1st round
1 Goalies
5 Wingers
8 Wingers in the 2nd Round

2017 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia

I get it, and knew this... but the other thing to look at... you think we have a log jam at W now... another year or two, and it will be worse on the D side. But, decent D have better value than most of the other positions. It should be possible, to trade away a D prospects, for a potential 3/4C,,, we can't look at things so linearly.

 

[thewave]

NHL.com - Stats

Drop down to change draft round

lol you used all draft years. Yeah things have changed a lot man. Try 2015, I think we can exclude the age of Abacus.

 

[4thline]

lol you used all draft years. Yeah things have changed a lot man. Try 2015, I think we can exclude the age of Abacus.

Ahem.
"No Data to display".
Firstly- the 15 draft is way to recent to glean anything from.
Secondly- the selections of a single draft prove mean nothing except for what was true for that draft year.


It's ok to admit you were wrong.
Hunter picked one wing last year, not "nothing but wings"
He's only used one pick above 59 on a listed winger.
There is nothing to support drafted C's outperfoming (on agregate) W's once you get out of the 1st round, especially deeper rounds (where his drafting has actually (slightly- ignoring the C's in the system and our needs) skewed to W).

 

[Mess]

BPA is always subjective. The reality is statistic probability and the odds favor D men and G's in 15-60. C in the first 15. It's just the way it goes man, don't know what to tell you but of course there are exceptions to the rule like say an exceptional D in the top 15 or C that slide into the 15-30 range. That's going to happen and I addressed that.

Go look at the 2017 picks. Teams are already adopting this method.

25 D or C were taken in the 1st round
1 Goalies
5 Wingers
8 Wingers in the 2nd Round

2017 NHL Entry Draft - Wikipedia

No question many scouts understand that the highest draft priorities are C and Dmen or franchise G to build around when setting BPA at draft position.

Wingers are a dime a dozen in the NHL and you would only draft one when there is a clear cut BPA at that point. Top C and Top Dmen are so hard to acquire and teams know they have to draft and develop their own.

 

[saltming]

There are players knocking on the door that imo have a better shot at making the team than Leivo. Johnsson and Grundstrom then what ufa's will we get from Europe and the NHL?
If leivo hasn't cracked the roster full time by now he's in tough next year too

 

[thewave]

No question many scouts understand that the highest draft priorities are C and Dmen or franchise G to build around when setting BPA at draft position.

Wingers are a dime a dozen in the NHL and you would only draft one when there is a clear cut BPA at that point. Top C and Top Dmen are so hard to acquire and teams know they have to draft and develop their own.

Exactly and as a result a great deal was had by NSH getting Tolvanen who I would have selected in the late 1st round as well going against what I said (but not really, he is an exception). The teams just know now that if you don't keep getting strong at the back or down the middle it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

[Walshy7]

There are players knocking on the door that imo have a better shot at making the team than Leivo. Johnsson and Grundstrom then what ufa's will we get from Europe and the NHL?
If leivo hasn't cracked the roster full time by now he's in tough next year too

I think they trade Leivo before the deadline, Martin will be 13th forward for immediate extra body but long term a scoring forward goes down they give Johnsson a shot, a 4th liner goes down Rychel gets a shot or aaltonen. Now is the time to trade Leivo

 

[GardinerTheForward]

Maybe we need to think of BPA as best player available to help your organization. I think C and D can help more than W if they are not significantly/noticably less skilled.

Bottom line is Nylander is not a lock to play C so we could stand to take a middle 6/bottom 6 C this year. Overall it is not that big a need to target by position and taking the best player should remain the strategy

 

[saltming]

I think they trade Leivo before the deadline, Martin will be 13th forward for immediate extra body but long term a scoring forward goes down they give Johnsson a shot, a 4th liner goes down Rychel gets a shot or aaltonen. Now is the time to trade Leivo

This I agree with. If Sosh got a 4th I'm hoping Leivo gets more

 

[Walshy7]

This I agree with. If Sosh got a 4th I'm hoping Leivo gets more

oh Leivo gets a 3rd pretty easily. He is cheaper than sosh and has more offensive upside. A 3rd seems about right and it doesn't necessarily have to be a contender either he is youngish and still has real upside. Maybe pinch a 2nd

 

[saltming]

oh Leivo gets a 3rd pretty easily. He is cheaper than sosh and has more offensive upside. A 3rd seems about right and it doesn't necessarily have to be a contender either he is youngish and still has real upside. Maybe pinch a 2nd

A 2nd would be lovely. Maybe a prospect? B level? Either way I don't see him making this team

 

[ACC1224]

A 2nd would be lovely. Maybe a prospect? B level? Either way I don't see him making this team

IF they move him now I doubt they want a contract coming back, unless of course they package him with another.
IMO, a 2nd is over optimistic. I'd imagine he'd bring back a 3rd at best, more likely a 4th.