Smarter hockey player: Crosby vs Datsyuk

[The Grim Reaper]

All I've learned from this thread is that Datsyuk is actually Harbaugh, irrationally defended.

 

[RSPens]

Even if they aren't, don't you think that Datsyuk has the most valuable season on record, and is significantly more valuable on a time on ice basis than Crosby counts for something? Even if we don't conclude he's the better player based on that, shouldn't it open the discussion? Or should we laugh it off because Crosby scored more points?

How does someone that never won a Hart be considered to have had the most "valuable" season on record?

 

[Gurglesons]

I'd have him top 20 absolute minimum. Yes, he is underrated, as evidenced by this thread

You'd have Pavel Datsyuk as a top 20 NHL player of all time?

 

[Beau Knows]

One of the top 3 Defensive forwards all time, had a peak that was top 3 in consecutive years, viewed by his peers as the best forward during that time.

What is the claim here?

That he was viewed by his peers as the best forward? They never awarded him the Lindsay/Pearson trophy for that.

Or are you saying that he was top 3 in consecutive years? He was only a Lindsay/Pearson finalist once iirc.

 

[nowhereman]

One of the top 3 Defensive forwards all time, had a peak that was top 3 in consecutive years, viewed by his peers as the best forward during that time. Came from truly no where and established a name for himself as one of the best stickhandlers, danglers and shootout specialists with solid offensive/defensive metrics that rival the best all time.

If he is rank 100 +, then he supposedly was outside the top 15 players during his era.

It is entirely debatable where Datsyuk ranks as an all-time defensive forward, as names like Gainey, Bergeron, Clarke, Provost, Lehtinen, Keon, Carbonneau, Francis, Fedorov, etc. are all in the mix. And none of those players, outside of Clarke, are guaranteed top 100 players of all time, despite how good they are in their own zone. Being a great defensive forward doesn't make-up for a lack of sustained elite offensive numbers (he only has two seasons with elite offense), major hardware (none outside of Selkes), or dominant playoff performances (he was never known as a clutch playoff performer).

And who are these peers you're talking about? The ones voting for the Pearson/Lindsay, who only ever had Datsyuk ranked as a top three finalist once in his career? Most of the player polls (along with the coach, GM, analyst, etc. polls) that I remember from that time had Crosby and Ovechkin ahead of Datsyuk. Ovechkin's reputation took a bit of a dip post-Olympics but Crosby took off after that and was universally praised as the best player in the NHL (and by a good margin too).

The legend of Datsyuk always seems to be growing...

Personally, I have Datsyuk in my top 100 but probably in the 90s. The Hockey History board here has him at #128, which isn't some grave injustice. And not cracking the top 100 doesn't mean you weren't a top player in your era. That said, of all of the players who played portions of their prime in the 00s and 10s, there is a good argument that all of Crosby, OV, McDavid, Jagr, Lidstrom, Brodeur, Pronger, Malkin, Kane, Keith, Chara, Thornton, Lundqvist, St. Louis, Iginla, and Karlsson are ahead of him all-time. You can probably debate the back-half of that list of guys but it's certainly not clear.

 

[Future GOAT]

Datsyuk. I don't think he ever made guys want to concuss him.

 

[Amazinmets73]

You'd have Pavel Datsyuk as a top 20 NHL player of all time?

Yes, absolutely. I already said I think he's as good or better than Crosby...

How does someone that never won a Hart be considered to have had the most "valuable" season on record?

Because it's advanced analytics, not a popular contest. John Scott was an All-Star, right?

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

What is the claim here?

That he was viewed by his peers as the best forward? They never awarded him the Lindsay/Pearson trophy for that.

Or are you saying that he was top 3 in consecutive years? He was only a Lindsay/Pearson finalist once iirc.

It is entirely debatable where Datsyuk ranks as an all-time defensive forward, as names like Gainey, Bergeron, Clarke, Provost, Lehtinen, Keon, Carbonneau, Francis, Fedorov, etc. are all in the mix. And none of those players, outside of Clarke, are guaranteed top 100 players of all time, despite how good they are in their own zone. Being a great defensive forward doesn't make-up for a lack of sustained elite offensive numbers (he only has two seasons with elite offense), major hardware (none outside of Selkes), or dominant playoff performances (he was never known as a clutch playoff performer).

And who are these peers you're talking about? The ones voting for the Pearson/Lindsay, who only ever had Datsyuk ranked as a top three finalist once in his career? Most of the player polls (along with the coach, GM, analyst, etc. polls) that I remember from that time had Crosby and Ovechkin ahead of Datsyuk. Ovechkin's reputation took a bit of a dip post-Olympics but Crosby took off after that and was universally praised as the best player in the NHL (and by a good margin too).

The legend of Datsyuk always seems to be growing...

Personally, I have Datsyuk in my top 100 but probably in the 90s. The Hockey History board here has him at #128, which isn't some grave injustice. And not cracking the top 100 doesn't mean you weren't a top player in your era. That said, of all of the players who played portions of their prime in the 00s and 10s, there is a good argument that all of Crosby, OV, McDavid, Jagr, Lidstrom, Brodeur, Pronger, Malkin, Kane, Keith, Chara, Thornton, Lundqvist, St. Louis, Iginla, and Karlsson are ahead of him all-time. You can probably debate the back-half of that list of guys but it's certainly not clear.

Watch the video 3rd post in, and all of it.............

 

[RSPens]

Yes, absolutely. I already said I think he's as good or better than Crosby...


Because it's advanced analytics, not a popular contest. John Scott was an All-Star, right?

Now that is a ridiculous argument. I understand that there are a lot of factors when determining the Hart. But to say that it is comparable to John Scott going to the all star game? One is voted on by people who know the sport, the other one is voted on by people who think Datsyuk had the "most valuable season ever". The fancy analytics are what led to him winning the Selke. The not being as valuable to his team as others were to there's is why he doesn't have a Hart.