Smarter hockey player: Crosby vs Datsyuk

[authentic]

A lot of people in this thread seem to be confusing smarter and better.

I think it's Datsyuk by a hair, but they're two of the smartest players I've ever seen play. The idea that Crosby is worlds ahead in hockey IQ is laughable, especially when you consider the gap in ability between the two.

Datsyuk is the most underrated player in these boards. Yes Crosby is better for peak prime and career, but peak versions of these players head to head wouldn’t be some lopsided victory for Crosby that’s for sure.

 

[authentic]

Yeah, that isn't correct at all there are clear boxes for defensive impacts that are factored into the total WAR percentile ranking.

Datsyuk was closer to Crosby offensively than he was to Bergeron and also had pretty close to Bergeron defense. Most advanced stats favour Datsyuk over others by a landslide and WAR charts aren’t some holy grail of advanced stats either.

 

[surixon]

Datsyuk was closer to Crosby offensively than he was to Bergeron and also had pretty close to Bergeron defense. Most advanced stats favour Datsyuk over others by a landslide and WAR charts aren’t some holy grail of advanced stats either.

That was along the lines of the point I was getting at. Trumping advanced stats only as some justification doesn't mean much to me as different advanced models show different things. I've also found moat advanced models do a poor job isolating an individual players contribution.

Just go look at those athletic player cards. Almost every player who plays anytime with a McDavid or a Crosby all of a sudden has great metrics and is worth 10 million bucks. Take the player away from that deployment and their metrics and market value unsurprisingly drops.

In the year the poster brought up (07/08) Datsyuk spent most of his 5 on 5 time with Zetterberg on his line and Lidstrom backing him up on defense. I mean of course he posted great results with those teammates on the ice with him.

 

[tabness]

Datsyuk is the most underrated player in these boards. Yes Crosby is better for peak prime and career, but peak versions of these players head to head wouldn’t be some lopsided victory for Crosby that’s for sure.

it's more that Crosby is just overrated as hell by this weird daveresque crew lol

That was along the lines of the point I was getting at. Trumping advanced stats only as some justification doesn't mean much to me as different advanced models show different things. I've also found moat advanced models do a poor job isolating an individual players contribution.

Just go look at those athletic player cards. Almost every player who plays anytime with a McDavid or a Crosby all of a sudden has great metrics and is worth 10 million bucks. Take the player away from that deployment and their metrics and market value unsurprisingly drops.

In the year the poster brought up (07/08) Datsyuk spent most of his 5 on 5 time with Zetterberg on his line and Lidstrom backing him up on defense. I mean of course he posted great results with those teammates on the ice with him.

it's plainly clear that both Lidstrom's and Zetterberg's fancy stats fall more without Datsyuk than vice versa

 

[nowhereman]

Uh, no he wasn't. Datsyuk was the better player.

Are you f***ing kidding me?

Datsyuk is borderline top 100, if we're being charitable, while Sid is top 5-10. Since Crosby's IQ is probably his strongest trait, it's a bit ludicrous to suggest Datsyuk was his superior. I take Datsyuk's defense and stick-handling over Crosby's and that's about it.

Datsyuk is the most underrated player in these boards. Yes Crosby is better for peak prime and career, but peak versions of these players head to head wouldn’t be some lopsided victory for Crosby that’s for sure.

Like all the other two-way darlings in the NHL, Datsyuk is one of the most overrated players on HFBoards. The way people talk about him, you'd think he was a 100 point Selke winner every year of his career, even though he really only had a roughly two season period where it wasn't ridiculous to mention him in the same sentence as Crosby and OV. It also helped that he spent a good chunk of his career playing with a HHOF-stacked roster of superstars in Detroit, where more often than not he wasn't even the best player on his team. I highly doubt he'd have had the same success playing on a thin Pittsburgh roster.

Datsyuk is the most underrated player in these boards. Yes Crosby is better for peak prime and career, but peak versions of these players head to head wouldn’t be some lopsided victory for Crosby that’s for sure.

We never got to see peak Crosby for an entire season but 2011-2014 Crosby was on a whole other level, if you're comparing him to any version of Datsyuk. This is a guy who lead his team in scoring, while only playing half a season.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

That was along the lines of the point I was getting at. Trumping advanced stats only as some justification doesn't mean much to me as different advanced models show different things. I've also found moat advanced models do a poor job isolating an individual players contribution.

Just go look at those athletic player cards. Almost every player who plays anytime with a McDavid or a Crosby all of a sudden has great metrics and is worth 10 million bucks. Take the player away from that deployment and their metrics and market value unsurprisingly drops.

In the year the poster brought up (07/08) Datsyuk spent most of his 5 on 5 time with Zetterberg on his line and Lidstrom backing him up on defense. I mean of course he posted great results with those teammates on the ice with him.

Datsyuk's metrics remained high all the way until the end actually

 

[abo9]

Datsyuk was an incredibly talented and intelligent player but this has to be Crosby.

Also I must be remembering Datsyuk's play a lot considering the amount of people in this thread arguing that he wasn't that skilled amd had to rely on his IQ...

I remember Datsyuk as being supremaly skilled with the puck and a pretty agile skater, able to dangle around any NHLer and the bane of goalies on a 1 on 1. Not that he didnt have a solid hockey mind as well, but I would put his individual skills as even better.

Crosby on the other hand has been a crazy hockey IQ guy no? Its his ability to use all 4 teammates on the ice that made the Pens so dangerous for so long.

 

[Dust]

The correct answer is neither, because this is an impossible task to differentiate between two elite players.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Like all the other two-way darlings in the NHL, Datsyuk is one of the most overrated players on HFBoards. The way people talk about him, you'd think he was a 100 point Selke winner every year of his career, even though he really only had a roughly two season period where it wasn't ridiculous to mention him in the same sentence as Crosby and OV. It also helped that he spent a good chunk of his career playing with a HHOF-stacked roster of superstars in Detroit, where more often than not he wasn't even the best player on his team. I highly doubt he'd have had the same success playing on a thin Pittsburgh roster.

According to Hfboards metrics, because they value numbers over observation, Datsyuk would be considered more highly touted. He would be on the 1st PP and play roughly 80% of the PP, without PK duties, and see more time because his line is more heavily relied upon for offense because of the weak depth. That isnt the case though.

 

[sdf]

This is the answer

 

[authentic]

Are you f***ing kidding me?

Datsyuk is borderline top 100, if we're being charitable, while Sid is top 5-10. Since Crosby's IQ is probably his strongest trait, it's a bit ludicrous to suggest Datsyuk was his superior. I take Datsyuk's defense and stick-handling over Crosby's and that's about it.


Like all the other two-way darlings in the NHL, Datsyuk is one of the most overrated players on HFBoards. The way people talk about him, you'd think he was a 100 point Selke winner every year of his career, even though he really only had a roughly two season period where it wasn't ridiculous to mention him in the same sentence as Crosby and OV. It also helped that he spent a good chunk of his career playing with a HHOF-stacked roster of superstars in Detroit, where more often than not he wasn't even the best player on his team. I highly doubt he'd have had the same success playing on a thin Pittsburgh roster.


We never got to see peak Crosby for an entire season but 2011-2014 Crosby was on a whole other level, if you're comparing him to any version of Datsyuk. This is a guy who lead his team in scoring, while only playing half a season.

Hockey is a two-way game. Head to head even peak Crosby would not dominate peak Datsyuk, that’s my point. Also he didn’t get a lot of powerplay time and overall time on ice compared to Crosby and especially Ovechkin in his peak seasons. Put him on a lesser team and give him more ice time and let him focus on offense more and he easily would’ve scored well over 100.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's true Datsyuk was better than Crosby in those years.Dissect the numbers and ask the players he played against.

What years are you referring too?

 

[sdf]

The statistics of intercepted passes would be a good indicator of hockey intelligence. And Datsyuk is known for this much more than Crosby

 

[authentic]

That was along the lines of the point I was getting at. Trumping advanced stats only as some justification doesn't mean much to me as different advanced models show different things. I've also found moat advanced models do a poor job isolating an individual players contribution.

Just go look at those athletic player cards. Almost every player who plays anytime with a McDavid or a Crosby all of a sudden has great metrics and is worth 10 million bucks. Take the player away from that deployment and their metrics and market value unsurprisingly drops.

In the year the poster brought up (07/08) Datsyuk spent most of his 5 on 5 time with Zetterberg on his line and Lidstrom backing him up on defense. I mean of course he posted great results with those teammates on the ice with him.

I can see what you’re getting at except your examples here don’t mean a whole lot considering it’s obvious lesser players will see a big boost playing with elite players and also using that one season for Datsyuk but ignoring several others where he wasn’t playing with Lidstrom and Zetterberg and still had dominant possession stats. When he was 36 he was 6th in the NHL in points per game and had better advanced stats than Bergeron (before the Marchand/Pastranak/Bergeron line started really dominating) and this was with Helm and Abdelkader as wingers and Lidstrom was retired. He was also pretty much playing on one healthy leg by then.

 

[Amazinmets73]

The Athletic is in the process of unveiling their top-100 hockey players of all-time. They just ranked Datsyuk 43rd. Zetterberg was 97th. No Lidstrom as of yet, (they're down to 42) so he'll obviously be ranked higher.

 

[nowhereman]

The Athletic is in the process of unveiling their top-100 hockey players of all-time. They just ranked Datsyuk 43rd. Zetterberg was 97th. No Lidstrom as of yet, (they're down to 42) so he'll obviously be ranked higher.

And people actually think Datsyuk is underrated? That's about 50 spots too high, at best. Mind you, I don't think The Athletic is really a place anyone should be using as a bastion of hockey history knowledge.

 

[Amazinmets73]

And people actually think Datsyuk is underrated? That's about 50 spots too high, at best. Mind you, I don't think The Athletic is really a place anyone should be using as a bastion of hockey history knowledge.

I'd have him top 20 absolute minimum. Yes, he is underrated, as evidenced by this thread

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

05-09 seasons, very close 4 yrs, but edge to Datsyuk imo

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

And people actually think Datsyuk is underrated? That's about 50 spots too high, at best. Mind you, I don't think The Athletic is really a place anyone should be using as a bastion of hockey history knowledge.

One of the top 3 Defensive forwards all time, had a peak that was top 3 in consecutive years, viewed by his peers as the best forward during that time. Came from truly no where and established a name for himself as one of the best stickhandlers, danglers and shootout specialists with solid offensive/defensive metrics that rival the best all time.

If he is rank 100 +, then he supposedly was outside the top 15 players during his era.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Crosby quickly becoming the most underrated player ever.

 

[daver]

Crosby was significantly better at arguably the most valuable thing a player can bring to his team: getting the puck in the opponent's net.

You want to give Datsyuk an edge due to defensive prowess, fine. But this would only apply if they were on equal terms offensively. They are clearly not.

Crosby's claim to fame is his ability, and his line's ability, to produce regardless of the quality of his linemates which has been key to the Pen's team success.

In no world do any of the Pen's teams win the Cup with Datysuk in place of Crosby.

 

[Tuna99]

I went with Crosby, but if my team had to face Crosby in a Stanley Cup final I’d want Datsyuk as my Center to plays against The Kid.

picked Crosby just because his offense and competitiveness are on another level then Datsyuk. But if they are both playing on top of their game very little separation.

 

[hamzarocks]

Datsyuk is the most overrated hockey player to ever exist

I thought it was Toews but people have him at a top 20-30 player all time which is crazy

He wasn't comparable to OV, Crosby, Geno outside of 2 years in his career.

He's in the St Louis, Iginla tier of players not Crosby, OV, Geno

 

[authentic]

Crosby was significantly better at arguably the most valuable thing a player can bring to his team: getting the puck in the opponent's net.

You want to give Datsyuk an edge due to defensive prowess, fine. But this would only apply if they were on equal terms offensively. They are clearly not.

Crosby's claim to fame is his ability, and his line's ability, to produce regardless of the quality of his linemates which has been key to the Pen's team success.

In no world do any of the Pen's teams win the Cup with Datysuk in place of Crosby.

They absolutely win it with Datsyuk in his place, especially in 2016.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Crosby was significantly better at arguably the most valuable thing a player can bring to his team: getting the puck in the opponent's net.

You want to give Datsyuk an edge due to defensive prowess, fine. But this would only apply if they were on equal terms offensively. They are clearly not.

Crosby's claim to fame is his ability, and his line's ability, to produce regardless of the quality of his linemates which has been key to the Pen's team success.

In no world do any of the Pen's teams win the Cup with Datysuk in place of Crosby.

Keeping pucks out of the net and scoring is quit literally the exact same outcome. Look no further than Ovechkin.

Defense only applies after offense? look at above. Both preventing and offense is the same outcome. Youre spitting opinions and acting as your words are absolute and 100% facts.

Theyre not