Should the Wings prioritize being a big "hard to play against" team?

[Henkka]

LOL, everyone has said Rasmussen was a stretch at 9. Our scouts heard from other teams that Lindstrom was a good pick. Absolutely no one had anything good to say about taking Rasmussen that high, mostly just happy to have the Wings take a guy rated in the 20s at #9.

"Everyone" has not said anything like that. Rasmussen went where he was projected to go.

No news in here.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

LOL, everyone has said Rasmussen was a stretch at 9. Our scouts heard from other teams that Lindstrom was a good pick. Absolutely no one had anything good to say about taking Rasmussen that high, mostly just happy to have the Wings take a guy rated in the 20s at #9.

Yet the same people continue to believe the Red Wings scouts are the smartest guys in the room.

Bob McKenzie's list is done by literally polling scouts from different organizations and assigning points to come up with the average. That list had him at #9.... Most lists had him at significantly higher than the 20's, in fact I am not sure any list I have seen had him that low. I am sure something can be dug up, I think Pronman was the lowest I saw at #19. Of course he had

#15 Makar
#16 Andersson
#17 Necas
#18 Pettersson

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Bob McKenzie's list is done by literally polling scouts from different organizations and assigning points to come up with the average. That list had him at #9.... Most lists had him at significantly higher than the 20's, in fact I am not sure any list I have seen had him that low. I am sure something can be dug up, I think Pronman was the lowest I saw at #19. Of course he had

#15 Makar
#16 Andersson
#17 Necas
#18 Pettersson

Sooooo can I take pronmans spot. Makar and Necas mid first round haha

 

[ricky0034]

chasing size and "character" is how you end up with teams that perennially go nowhere like Toronto and Calgary all those years

 

[Henkka]

chasing size and "character" is how you end up with teams that perennially go nowhere like Toronto and Calgary all those years

Then you'll start getting highest possible picks.

 

[Gibby]

Then you'll start getting highest possible picks.

Then you've surrounded your top 5 pick(s) with size and character...works for me

 

[jkutswings]

Then you'll start getting highest possible picks.

And, if both scenarios end up needing to rebuild with high draft picks, how exactly is it better to first waste several years, rather than just tanking right now?

 

[BinCookin]

And, if both scenarios end up needing to rebuild with high draft picks, how exactly is it better to first waste several years, rather than just tanking right now?

What is your point? Negativity around here has been building for a long time:

Sorry we lost the lottery and moved from #7 to #9.

that was a big kick in the nuts.

Overall, there was no obvious "star" we jumped over with this #9 pick. It was a weak draft. And honestly everyone is just guessing here. Don't worry tanking crowd, this #9 pick WAS a tank job, because we sucked all year. But the new lottery system will be tough. Guess we will just have to suck worse this coming year.

 

[Dotter]

I believe when people say he has no skills they mean he has no skills (or very limited) in creating his own offense. He is not a play driver. He is a very, VERY good garbage goal scorer with a mean streak, size, and two way play though.

I'm disappointed we skipped on some guys we were high on, but we just drafted a Nick Bjugstad clone (possibly better), not a forward Hal Gill

Which is funny because nobody outside the top 3 fits that bill. This is a weak draft and Wings drafted the bigger player who is already the better skater.

Not directed at you. If Ram only tops out as a big mean 3rd liner and PP specialist, and Vilardi tops out as a AHL tweener, then who would you rather have?

At the very least, Ram would have trade value while the none-skater guy is ending his pro career. I think Vilardi's skating is going to hold him back. Ram can already skate and has the work ethics to better his game in other areas. Skating is the hardest to improve..

 

[Shaman464]

Which is funny because nobody outside the top 3 fits that bill. This is a weak draft and Wings drafted the bigger player who is already the better skater.

Not directed at you. If Ram only tops out as a big mean 3rd liner and PP specialist, and Vilardi tops out as a AHL tweener, then who would you rather have?

At the very least, Ram would have trade value while the none-skater guy is ending his pro career. I think Vilardi's skating is going to hold him back. Ram can already skate and has the work ethics to better his game in other areas. Skating is the hardest to improve..

So, it seems a lot of people are having two different arguments: The practical vs the philosophical.

The practical argument is 'well even if his ceiling is low, his floor is high, wouldn't you rather have the person most people think is the sure NHL player over the guy who is more likely to bust'.

The philosophical argument is 'Holland has gotten to a point that he is so risk adverse that he is unwilling to draft the players with the highest upside because he fears losing the gamble. So instead he drafts the sure thing hoping it will be enough to return the team to contending for a playoff spot. That we would rather see bold action, even if it doesn't pan out, because at least means that Holland recognizes the problem'.

As such I think both sides are talking past each other. But I also think the practical argument is one that chooses to ignore some of the facts of the matter. If his ceiling is middle six center or top 6 winger, why draft him? Those players are the easiest to find in free agency, they are, as the Wings have proved, not hard to find in the draft outside of the top ten. Why not roll the dice on a player that may not pan out, but if does can be a top line/pairing talent? Because none of the picks this year factor to be that, and likely end up being in the easy to replace talent pool. This draft was almost satirically stereotypical Holland. There were zero risks taken, in spite of him having more chances to pick than he probably ever has since the draft went down to 7 rounds.

As for skating being the hardest thing to improve, yeah, sure, but you can't make someone any smarter than they already are. You can have all the tools in the world, but if you don't got a tool box, it can be pretty much worthless.

 

[Spitfire11]

The 'hardest to play against' Wings of the last 20 years were Nick, Sergei, Pavel and Z. Yes, I would like more of that.

The Wings have been trying to draft the next Zetterberg, Datsyuk, etc for the past 2 decades. Obviously they've failed miserably.

 

[Leadzedder]

Regarding Rasmussen vs. Vilardi or any other player available in the draft, I prefer Rasmussen.

And it wasn't a hard decision at all.

One is a Redwing.

The others aren't.

 

[newfy]

We are building a team that trended 4-6 years ago. Big guys must have skill and be able to move though. Can't just have a big team full of slow guys. This game is about speed. Skating MUST not be an area where it's these big guys biggest issues.

Must be able to move? Only on HFboards does big and tough mean they cant skate and have no skill.

People are acting like Rasmussen can't skate but they obviously havent looked at his combine results. He has skill, size and speed, at 9th overall in a weaker draft that isnt a bad pick. He could absolutely bust, or he could become the biggest forward in the league capable of playing in the top 6. Noone knows, but the people complaining about drafting big/slow guys are the ones that know the least because that didnt happen this year.

Not being able to outskill the Oilers/Leafs etc is a good point. Get a team that can beat the snot out of their skilled guys, smother them and chip in their own offense a bit and the wings could beat them down the road. Without tanking for another ten years, I doubt the wings match the skill of those teams. But sure, lets draft some more Nyquists and Tatars to go against those guys so people on HFboards will be happy

 

[Henkka]

Sorry we lost the lottery and moved from #7 to #9.

that was a big kick in the nuts.

Yeah. Jim Nill is so great GM now when he drafted Heiskanen #3 overall.

Or Hextall. Superb GM, picked 2nd best talent Nolan Patrick with his 1st rounder just like that. Pure drafting skill.

Great drafters. Lot better than Wings guys.

 

[Shaman464]

Yeah. Jim Nill is so great GM now when he drafted Heiskanen #3 overall.

Or Hextall. Superb GM, picked 2nd best talent Nolan Patrick with his 1st rounder just like that. Pure drafting skill.

Great drafters. Lot better than Wings guys.

Who has Detroit drafted in the last 15 years that have been elite?

 

[HIFE]

Scout opinios will differ. I can pick the opposite comments about Rasmussen and Vilardi.

Just get over it. Whining doesn't change the pick. Pretty much I'm sure same whining would be going on here if Wright would have picked Vilardi. Such a bad skater! Should have picked Tippet ot Liljegren! Kenny should retire!

Just automatic negativity going on for anything our orgazation will make.

More interesting would be the discussion how we build the team with Rasmussen in the mix. He is our guy now.

I brought this up earlier but like 2 out of 20 people from this board who've been following the scouting reports and actually doing their own scouting had Rasmussen in the top 15. With our highest pick in decades the choice threw the majority a curve ball (NHL commentators included). And no there wouldn't be crying over Vilardi. It was an odd draft pick that's eliciting scrutiny, big deal.

As for the negativity I think the almost forced responses from the handful of members who will in every possible instance find a way to rationalize Holland's decision making are as equally over-the-top. There seems to be this desperate need from some to defend the team at all costs and without reason. I'm not sure if it's playing devil's advocate or what. The Wings are at our lowest place in 30 years there's no way to paint a happy smile. It's painful as fans and it's bound to bring exaggerated responses. Just like our politics in the west there is a polarizing of groups who are emotional about their beliefs. Expressing differing viewpoints doesn't have to be a problem. I think it's a healthy process that is one step to finding truth. We can agree that for whatever reason the Wings are not contending the next couple years. We're in a rough patch compared to how high and revered the Wings have been which is ok. I say best is to keep respect because we are all friends here with a similar passion for the team.

Back on topic: Really engaging discussion. I wouldn't judge one draft as evidence of a concrete direction the Wings are moving towards. Missing the playoffs it may be a touch of frustration that factored into the lot of over-sized prospects gathered up. Witnessing Frk or Pulkkinen, and in their own way Gus and Tats unable to take a next step may be part of the logic. G. Smith and Svech were mentioned but I'd have to watch next year to conclude that wow Detroit is in a single-minded fashion building a team of freakish giants.

I agree with others who say they certainly hope not; an attempt to build a winning team based on the criteria of size is bound to fail. A few years ago LA and Boston defined the term "heavy hockey" but it wasn't just their size it was physical play and an aggressive in-your-face attitude that changed the face of the game. Depth guys like Lucic, Williams, Brown, King, Thorton, Stoll bought into the punishing style of checking but it was Kopitar, Carter, Bergeron and Chara who were not just big but with their skill played larger than life. Also you can't forget figures like Marchand, Gaborik, or Martinez- smaller players who were key to championship runs.

Sort of an off-beat opinion but I sometimes think Anaheim and St.Louis both modeled themselves to take on the Kings but it may have been their undoing. St. Louis is just so massive in size. They did finally solve the Hawks last season but it was straight up the skill and speed of SJ that wiped them out. This year vs. Nashville they looked slow compared. IF the Wings have some one-dimensional vision about building a larger sized team to contend someday they are more confused than anyone claims.

To echo what others said (which is pretty much all I do, haha) drafting a team is about balance. "Needs" may be something that is addressed through free-agency, trades, or simply prospects developing in ways not expected. How well can you plan for a team 5 years down the road? Personality should be a big part of the choice but scoring and playmaking have to be the first consideration no matter size or handedness. I can't help but think of small guys like Drouin, Marner, Gudreau, Krug, Hickey, Jensen, Point, etc. and what a force they are on the ice.

I love the comment about Guentzal and Arvidsson- two of the hardest to play against so true! Not enough credit is given to Malkin though...he may be the meanest most determined player in the world.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The philosophical argument is 'Holland has gotten to a point that he is so risk adverse that he is unwilling to draft the players with the highest upside because he fears losing the gamble. So instead he drafts the sure thing hoping it will be enough to return the team to contending for a playoff spot.

Last year he avoided the safe bet(s) and went with a higher upside project. And people hated that pick and have complained about it every day for a year.

 

[norrisnick]

The Wings have been trying to draft the next Zetterberg, Datsyuk, etc for the past 2 decades. Obviously they've failed miserably.

I'd rather that be the target than the next Keith Primeau or Mike Knuble.

 

[Heaton]

Last year he avoided the safe bet(s) and went with a higher upside project. And people hated that pick and have complained about it every day for a year.

I think most people feel like he passed on the better player.

 

[jkutswings]

I think most people feel like he passed on the better player.

And did so again this year. But that's not the worst part.

The worst part is feeling like there's no silver lining to being a bad team, because the organization is still trying to preserve something that they don't realize is already gone. Believing that, if Holland gets the chance, that he will sign as many veterans as he can, bringing the team right up to the cap again, to chase that 8th seed one more time, is maddening.

Now if he could package either Nyquist or Tatar for a decent defenseman under 30, I could at least call that a move with both short and long term improvement in mind. But refusing to compromise on his own players, and continuing to play the ultra conservative game of, 'this might be our lucky year in the Parity Sweepstakes' just takes all the fun out of rooting for the team.

This front office has sucked the life out of being a Wings fan, and every time it feels like they have a new opportunity to start down a better road, it feels like they put another nail in the coffin instead.

 

[Dotter]

Who has Detroit drafted in the last 15 years that have been elite?

You'd think it was Calle Jarnkrok after reading some posts.

 

[Flowah]

You'd think it was Calle Jarnkrok after reading some posts.

Haha! Nice burn, dude!

But wait.... If we've drafted no elite players in the past 15 years. Isn't that a problem that reflects poorly on the GM?

Oh no! Maybe Holland is doing something wrong! OH NO. THAT CAN'T BE IT.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You'd think it was Calle Jarnkrok after reading some posts.

You shouldn't have to mischaracterize people's arguments to make a point.

 

[Henkka]

Interesting to hear that real HÃ¥kan Andersson talk about our defencemen in here:

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/2...ns-red-wings-slow-approach-rebuild/430342001/

Tyler Wright speaks first for Helene St. James, Andersson speaks later on same 6-min video.

Talks about Hicketts, Hronek and Saarijärvi...

"We have three smaller defencemen we believe in very much. But can you play with a team full of that size.... probably not. So we talked about it.... But at the same time... I think the main thing is, they (these 2017 draftees) are good hockey players. Do they have a weapon, that you can... you know, what's gonna be the thing which will get them in NHL... that's what we look. That's why we drafted those small guys, they all have great hockey sense, creativity. Now.. I think, that big Danish kid has... maybe the higher upside of that group, but Gustav Lindström is just very good all-around player."

Also was interesting to hear those things about Setkov (that big Danish kid), that Malmö had A-team and B-team for their juniors. At season start this A-team coach just laughed for Setkov who was playing on B-team, and in february he was already playing on his A-team 1st PP quarterback... so he did huge development and stole a big role in a short period. These are stories I love to hear.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The Wings are clearly prioritizing size with their last 2-3 drafts, and our Director of Amateur Scouting is talking a lot about picking guys who are "hard to play against", either because they are big, or physical, or a pest.

Is this the type of team you want to be? I really could care less. I think the best way to be hard to play against is to own the puck and not let the other team have it.

I think they did clearly focus on size and 'grit' more in the 2017 draft. I think there was no such focus in the 2-3 drafts before that. Yes, there are a couple gritty guys selected in the upper halves of those drafts, but not so much that one can infer a multi-year focus.

2013: Bertuzzi of 5 picks rounds 1-4.
2014: Maybe Turgeon of 3 picks?
2015: None of the 3.
2016: Smith of the 4.
2017: 4 of the 5, Lindstrom being the exception.

I think adding Nielsen and re-upping DK, Abby and Helm last year, combined with this years draft, certainly indicates at least a 12 month strong push in the direction of grit over skill, but I'm not sure that will continue going forward or not.

IMO going grit is the least difficult way to get into the playoffs because it tends to raise the floor of a team, while also lowering its ceiling. This could be a situation where the organization didn't see enough grit in the pipeline and wanted to goose it a bit. It could also be the start of a 3 year arc where they really drill down and try and focus on it.