Should the Wings prioritize being a big "hard to play against" team?

[Frk It]

The Wings are clearly prioritizing size with their last 2-3 drafts, and our Director of Amateur Scouting is talking a lot about picking guys who are "hard to play against", either because they are big, or physical, or a pest.

Is this the type of team you want to be? I really could care less. I think the best way to be hard to play against is to own the puck and not let the other team have it.

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[Ennui]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, Rasmussen is a puck possession monster, that's one of his bread and butter features. I'm not certain that we know what we have in a lot of these players, and there are also players of note that the Wings have selected in the last couple of drafts who play a skilled puck possession game of the form you are suggesting.

 

[Frk It]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, Rasmussen is a puck possession monster, that's one of his bread and butter features.

Talking about the big picture. I think we could be going for some small undersized skill forwards in rounds 2-7 as well, but you see us going for guys like Givani Smith, Zach Gallant, etc.

That has never been the Red Wings way. We have even been going with bigger Euro's lately.

It seems pretty clear we want to try and assemble a team a certain way, and I'm not sure I really agree, given how we have succeeded in the past.

 

[Ennui]

Talking about the big picture. I think we could be going for some small undersized skill forwards in rounds 2-7 as well, but you see us going for guys like Givani Smith, Zach Gallant, etc.

That has never been the Red Wings way. We have even been going with bigger Euro's lately.

It seems pretty clear we want to try and assemble a team a certain way, and I'm not sure I really agree, given how we have succeeded in the past.

I think that, big picture, the Wings are trying to become a much more balanced team, which is not a bad thing -- it allows you to adapt to different teams that you are facing. I think that the most successful teams in the modern league are actually well balanced in their composition, but many have also been stocking premier prospects via high selections and more than a little luck.

Given where the Wings have been drafting in the recent drafts, I feel that we have made appropriate selections. If we went entirely with boom or bust selections, it would likely result in a lot more hand wringing, whinging and 20/20 hindsight than we currently have.

 

[Frk It]

I think that, big picture, the Wings are trying to become a much more balanced team, which is not a bad thing -- it allows you to adapt to different teams that you are facing. I think that the most successful teams in the modern league are actually well balanced in their composition, but many have also been stocking premier prospects via high selections and more than a little luck.

Given where the Wings have been drafting in the recent drafts, I feel that we have made appropriate selections.

When you have elite talent, and you want to round out your team with some grit or big two way players... that's fine.

But we need to find those elite talents first. So I want to be hearing about how skilled player x, y, z we just drafted is. I don't really give a **** if they are hard to play against or not.

Mitch Marner is 160 lbs and looks like a pizza delivery boy, but try and take the puck from him.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. For example, Rasmussen is a puck possession monster, that's one of his bread and butter features. I'm not certain that we know what we have in a lot of these players, and there are also players of note that the Wings have selected in the last couple of drafts who play a skilled puck possession game of the form you are suggesting.

Is he? Everything I've seen indicates the opposite.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Not at the expense of skill or speed.

Teams that had a reputation for being big/physical and intimidating had the requisite skill to go along with it.

 

[Shaman464]

This is Holland chasing a trend instead of setting it. It use to be every team wanted to be the Detroit puck possession team. And some still build teams around that model. In the mid to late 00s and the beginning of the 10s some teams have prioritized being big, and hard to play against to varying degrees of success. Team have started using speed and intelligence to negate strong teams (strong first passers, guys who can transition before the other team is in place, etc). Now Holland has decided to try to chase the big, hard to play against fad, because it is obviously the easier of the two to build and in a desperate attempt to get the team into the playoffs. I honestly don't see it paying dividends and Detroit having to start over in a few years with a lot of busts to show for it (Smith is already looking to be a bust in his +1 year).

 

[Ennui]

Is he? Everything I've seen indicates the opposite.

Scouting reports say that his reach, his size, abilities, etc. make it very easy for him to play keep-away. I haven't really seen footage of him getting stripped of the puck.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I just can't stand it when people want a 40 point big winger over a 60-65 point 5"11 or 10 winger which is apparentaly small now

 

[Frk It]

This is Holland chasing a trend instead of setting it. It use to be every team wanted to be the Detroit puck possession team. And some still build teams around that model. In the mid to late 00s and the beginning of the 10s some teams have prioritized being big, and hard to play against to varying degrees of success. Team have started using speed and intelligence to negate strong teams (strong first passers, guys who can transition before the other team is in place, etc). Now Holland has decided to try to chase the big, hard to play against fad, because it is obviously the easier of the two to build and in a desperate attempt to get the team into the playoffs. I honestly don't see it paying dividends and Detroit having to start over in a few years with a lot of busts to show for it (Smith is already looking to be a bust in his +1 year).

I don't know that he is chasing a trend, I think he is trying to set one actually.

Pittsburgh and Chicago have won off skill and speed, and being puck possession monsters. Holland and Wright seem to be talking about creating a team that is a counterpunch of sorts to those teams.

I really don't mind the big guys in the first round like Svech or Rasmussen as much, I just think we need to go back to drafting guys like Nyquist, Hudler, Tatar, Filppula in the middle rounds. We seemed to have abandoned that entirely. Having those puck possession guys on our 2nd and 3rd lines was huge the last time we won a Cup, I thought. And most of the reasons those guys dropped in the draft was their size.

You can generally get bigger guys with skill with your first pick, but it is usually much harder after that, and the guys more likely to fall through the cracks are smaller guys.

 

[Shaman464]

I don't know that he is chasing a trend, I think he is trying to set one actually.

Pittsburgh and Chicago have won off skill and speed, and being puck possession monsters. Holland and Wright seem to be talking about creating a team that is a counterpunch of sorts to those teams.

I really don't mind the big guys in the first round like Svech or Rasmussen as much, I just think we need to go back to drafting guys like Nyquist, Hudler, Tatar, Filppula in the middle rounds. We seemed to have abandoned that entirely. Having those puck possession guys on our 2nd and 3rd lines was huge the last time we won a Cup, I thought. And most of the reasons those guys dropped in the draft was their size.

You can generally get bigger guys with skill with your first pick, but it is usually much harder after that, and the guys more likely to fall through the cracks are smaller guys.

I think he's trying to build a Boston/San Jose/Anaheim/old school NJ/Philly type team. This isn't a new thing actually the speed/skill combination, at least as far as I can see it was a reaction to teams like Phoenix, Anaheim, San Jose, Boston, etc playing the crushing physical hockey. Basically you can't hit what you're not fast enough/smart enough to catch.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The Wings have been reverse the trend for years. I don't think the size guys we are drafting are bad skaters which is important.

This is more popular when Boston, LA or Anaheim are winning.

But they value different leagues, countries and traits it seems at different times. They like to be counter to the league. We can only hope some of this is panning out, it hasn't been a great run lately. I don't think it is a bad idea as long as they can skate and have talent. AA, Svech, Mantha, Rasmussen are all talented players, hulking stay at home D-man need to be good skaters these days too. If we are drafting big guys that skate well great.

The Wings weren't just a possession team when they were winning cups. They had a little more jam and toughness than I think most thought. They were really hard to play against. Yes they weren't the biggest but they were really tough to play against.

If being big and skilled is the goal good deal I don't mind watching those teams. There is a certain hopelessness when the bury you in corner and beat you up over a series. It has happened to us, if these kids click they can do it to others. I think we are also likely to get a couple higher end players over the next couple of drafts. So physical hulking players that skate well are going to be good compliments. You get an identity, the last couple of picks here can be the big time skill guys. By the way they will have all these hulking players around protecting them.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

I don't know that he is chasing a trend, I think he is trying to set one actually.

Pittsburgh and Chicago have won off skill and speed, and being puck possession monsters. Holland and Wright seem to be talking about creating a team that is a counterpunch of sorts to those teams.

I really don't mind the big guys in the first round like Svech or Rasmussen as much, I just think we need to go back to drafting guys like Nyquist, Hudler, Tatar, Filppula in the middle rounds. We seemed to have abandoned that entirely. Having those puck possession guys on our 2nd and 3rd lines was huge the last time we won a Cup, I thought. And most of the reasons those guys dropped in the draft was their size.

You can generally get bigger guys with skill with your first pick, but it is usually much harder after that, and the guys more likely to fall through the cracks are smaller guys.

That's pretty much how I see it as well. If you can someone that is big and has skill go for it but the priority should still be to draft the players with the highest skill and skating abilities. Every pick does not need to be a small skilled player but they should at least compose some of your picks. The way I see it is that there's no point in having grit for the playoffs if you can't even qualify for them.

I don't think anyone has ever had an issue of having too much scoring so if we were to have an excess of small, scoring forwards we could trade one to fill a need. If there's one thing the Wings have proven they are good at it's drafting the smaller skilled forward, in contrast to say Nashville who is good at drafting defenceman. Scoring players will almost always be in demand so there could always be a trade made to correct any other team deficiencies.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

The Wings have been reverse the trend for years. I don't think the size guys we are drafting are bad skaters which is important.

This is more popular when Boston, LA or Anaheim are winning.

But they value different leagues, countries and traits it seems at different times. They like to be counter to the league. We can only hope some of this is panning out, it hasn't been a great run lately. I don't think it is a bad idea as long as they can skate and have talent. AA, Svech, Mantha, Rasmussen are all talented players, hulking stay at home D-man need to be good skaters these days too. If we are drafting big guys that skate well great.

The Wings weren't just a possession team when they were winning cups. They had a little more jam and toughness than I think most thought. They were really hard to play against. Yes they weren't the biggest but they were really tough to play against.

If being big and skilled is the goal good deal I don't mind watching those teams. There is a certain hopelessness when the bury you in corner and beat you up over a series. It has happened to us, if these kids click they can do it to others. I think we are also likely to get a couple higher end players over the next couple of drafts. So physical hulking players that skate well are going to be good compliments. You get an identity, the last couple of picks here can be the big time skill guys. By the way they will have all these hulking players around protecting them.

I just want a little more talent mixed in. Take that chance at a 5'10" 185lb with a crap ton of skill.

 

[taylorjonl]

The Wings have been reverse the trend for years. I don't think the size guys we are drafting are bad skaters which is important.

This is more popular when Boston, LA or Anaheim are winning.

True statement, but to be honest, LA/Boston are boring to watch and Anaheim is full of babies that start hacking and slashing when things don't go their way. Not the kind of hockey I want to watch.

 

[newfy]

Who is saying these 5'10 skilled guys are actually more effective hockey players than the big guys Detroit is drafting?

What have Nyquist and Tatar ever won for Detroit? If anything they disappear in the playoffs. Its not 5'10 4th round skill that wins. Its top line, elite talent. The wings havent picked high enough to get that, so theyre building a team of tough guys to play against. Once these guys hit their stride, hopefully Detroit has bottomed out and drafte some elite players. I'm sure if the wings drafted in the top 5 in a great draft, they wouldnt pass on Mitch Marner, but at number 9 in this years draft they werent getting that level of skilled player

I think a lot of people should just be happy that it seems the wings finally have a direction to go in the rebuild. Add some really high end skill with a couple top 5 picks and this team will beat you with skill and beat you up

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Not the way they think. The true hardest thing to play against is being scored on over and over. It's the old Wings trope: if you take a penalty against us, we're going to score. So don't do anything that could result in a penalty.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

 

[newfy]

Not the way they think. The true hardest thing to play against is being scored on over and over. It's the old Wings trope: if you take a penalty against us, we're going to score. So don't do anything that could result in a penalty.

Yep and the most recent team that could do that still had prime Kronwall, Dallas Drake, Maltby, Mccarty, Downey, Holmstrom, a young Helm, a young Abdelkader etc.

The older teams that did that still had Shanny, DMac, Kocur, Ward, Homer, Pushor, Maltby, Draper, Vladdy, Macoun, Rouse, Lapointe etc.

Right now the wings are one of the softest teams theyve had and also the least skilled. Theyre trying to address both of thjose situations and get balance back in the line up which is exactly what they need. They never won without balance and theyre defnintely one of tyhe softest line ups theyve iced in a long time this year

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'll say this; I've always been a much bigger fan of the puck possession, high-skill, cerebral type of players and type of hockey than the big, strong, physically dominant kind.

But let's look at this from another angle; do we think we can realistically build a team that is more purely skilled than Edmonton, than Toronto, than perhaps Winnipeg or Buffalo? If we tank for years, get lucky with the draft lottery in the right years.. maybe. Or if we just go insane with late round picks and assemble another Dats/Z/Lids core. But right now, pure skill and puck possession is at a premium. Everyone is looking for it. Guys like Lias Andersson and Elias Pettersson would not go top 10 in the past. Erik Brannstrom and Cale Makar would be late 1st round picks if 1st rounders at all. Everyone is chasing this same style, because it's been successful.

But when everyone is going in one direction, you can either follow and try to beat everyone at that game or you can ask "what are other teams potentially overlooking right now?". Maybe, just maybe, there are teams looking too hard at the skill factor right now. It doesn't really matter in a playoff series if you're a skilled team, if you're not MORE SKILLED than the other team you're unlikely to win barring unexpected events. Our road to a cup in the next 10-15 years will go through guys like Matthews/Marner/Nylander, Eichel/Reinhart/O'Rielly, McDavid/Draisatl/Puljujarvi, etc.

Are we going to beat them at their own game? Or are we simply going to beat them up? Line up Rasmussen, Mantha and Svechnikov against them and we at least have a physical advantage. We saw how huge that was when San Jose, Anaheim, Boston etc. became huge matchup problems for us. Those teams weren't without skill, but they weren't on the level of Dats/Z/Lids. They were simply bigger, stronger. LA never had a core like Crosby/Malkin/Letang, but they were big and tough as nails to play against. If you can't be the most skilled team in the league, being the biggest or the toughest may be the second best thing.

Luckily, we're not without skill either. And we're adding d-men like Hronek/Saarijarvi/Hicketts who may complement the big forward group with smart and skilled puck-movement. If nothing else, we may be starting to carve out a road map. A lot of things need to fall into place for us to be successful, but the nice thing is the higher we draft the better our chances of actually finding size+skill in the same player.

 

[Henkka]

I think it adds a good culture when you have big and hard-working core.

Then, you add skill guys in it and they won't learn bad habits, because that good culture and great characters are already the team leaders.

Bingo. Then you have a contender.

 

[gretskidoo]

I'd rather we focus on winning instead.

 

[Ezekial]

I'm not one to point at "tuffnes" and say our team needs it but watching the team last year they're definitely lacking. When someone in another thread saying we have a gritty team and 2 of they six they point out are Helm and Ericsson - then yes you need to be tougher to play against.

 

[jkutswings]

So Detroit has gone from refusing to rebuild, to choosing to refashion themselves into a team that will definitely have less overall skill than any playoff opponents they might face...but have a chance to beat them up enough to squeak by?

If that strategy actually manifests itself, I'll be looking for a Team B to follow. Because not only will it not work, but it'll be another several years of lousy hockey to watch.

It's toughest to play against a ton of skill that has just enough physicality thrown in. But let the geniuses go after the giants; it'll help be their (much needed) undoing.