Should the Wings prioritize being a big "hard to play against" team?

[Birko19]

Who said that he wasn't? It would really help if you quoted people.

No one said he's not skilled, but one poster suggested that we're drafting size and ignoring skill, when in reality it's not the case at all. Even this year, despite Rasmussen's big size, it does not mean he comes with no skills. This is a potential powerfoward folks, his upside is exciting.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

What makes you think Rasmussen has no skills?

Come on Briko, this is HFboards. Big guys cannot be skilled. The skill over size narrative does not work if someone is both big and skilled. You should also know that players will never be anything more than what they were on draft day.

 

[Birko19]

Come on Briko, this is HFboards. Big guys cannot be skilled. The skill over size narrative does not work if someone is both big and skilled. You should also know that players will never be anything more than what they were on draft day.

I don't blame them actually, I was one of those folks when we drafted Larkin lol.

 

[jkutswings]

Svechnikov's scouting report by Curtis Joe for elite prospects blurb in 2014 starts with "An incredibly skilled offensive winger"

Yawn. Several posters here act like he's the next Patrick Kane, by the tone of their comments.

Dylan Larkin is very much trending to be a 2nd line forward. Svechnikov, Hronek, and Bertuzzi have zero meaningful NHL minutes, let alone any sort of a resume to declare them great draft picks. And Cholowski is closer to hitting puberty than helping the blue line.

I have zero reason to believe that Rasmussen was a smart pick, because I have zero reason to believe that ANY of Detroit's recent picks will be special. And yes, if you're taking a power play specialist at #9 overall, who has questionable analytics, with Vilardi and Necas still on the board, and a boom/bust guy in Liljgren still available as well...he darn well better end up being special, to consider it a smart pick.

Size is a fantastic addition to, but a poor substitute for skill, and with their best draft stock in decades, this new strategy is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Ezekial]

Yawn. Several posters here act like he's the next Patrick Kane, by the tone of their comments.

Several posters are acting like he's the Greg Oden of hockey as well though.

I just posted in the M-Ras thread, I'm not thrilled either.

Who said that he wasn't? It would really help if you quoted people.

Birko hit it on the head, it was more of an implication that we were drafting size and ignoring skill. I think this year we kinda made that a point but not in years past.

Crazy that we drafted a guy that was 6'6" at each position (F/D/G)

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yawn. Several posters here act like he's the next Patrick Kane, by the tone of their comments.

Dylan Larkin is very much trending to be a 2nd line forward. Svechnikov, Hronek, and Bertuzzi have zero meaningful NHL minutes, let alone any sort of a resume to declare them great draft picks. And Cholowski is closer to hitting puberty than helping the blue line.

I have zero reason to believe that Rasmussen was a smart pick, because I have zero reason to believe that ANY of Detroit's recent picks will be special. And yes, if you're taking a power play specialist at #9 overall, who has questionable analytics, with Vilardi and Necas still on the board, and a boom/bust guy in Liljgren still available as well...he darn well better end up being special, to consider it a smart pick.

Size is a fantastic addition to, but a poor substitute for skill, and with their best draft stock in decades, this new strategy is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

These guys with no meaningful NHL minutes... I have no reason to believe could be special.

But these other guys... who also have no meaningful NHL minutes, those guys will certainly be special!

If the Wings HAD drafted Vilardi or Liljegren, you'd be ripping that pick too. If not now, then a few years from now when they're not superstars. Vilardi would be "Oh, this dude can't skate for **** or Liljegren "Man, we really should have known this guy was another Smith or Kindl who has all the tools but no toolbox".

I just think it's overly pessimistic and reeks of beating a dead horse with another dead horse to complain about draft picks and whine and moan about how barren our cupboard is when it is simply impossible to know what they have in Svech and Hronek and Cholowski and the 2017 class as most haven't set foot in pro hockey for very long at all.

You're taking all of the most negative points of all the picks and highlight them and downplaying the weaknesses of those players that the Wings skipped over.

 

[Frk It]

If the Wings HAD drafted Vilardi or Liljegren, you'd be ripping that pick too.

You know there actually was a draft thread where people voiced their opinions before these picks that made? Maybe for those that didn't voice their opinions there, sure. But a lot of people are actually voicing an opinion consistent with what they said in that thread, believe it or not.

And sorry, but some people would literally defend any pick this team makes too, regardless of who it was.

 

[Winger98]

I don't get your view, this is the first time in 3 years we have focused on such size in the first round. The last time we took a huge guy it was Mantha in 2013, and he certainly does not lack skill.

I think the harshness on Rasmussen comes partly from, at least the appearance of, more skilled guys still being on the board at the same position or on defense. I don't think anyone thought Vilardi would fall like he did, a lot of folks liked Necas, Liljigren was still on the board.

Personally, I'm leery of Rasmussen's lack of production at ES, and everything I see of him is him mucking it up in front of the goalie. Granted, that's a good thing to have on the team, but I was really hoping we'd get a guy who has shown the ability to take the puck, dictate the play a bit, and make his teammates better. We clearly weren't going to draft the next McDavid in the 9 spot, especially with this draft, but I thought other guys had shown more ability to be that sort of impact center or defenceman.

Still, have to hope the guy matures well and lives up to the majority of his expectations at this point. Rasmussen could become a helluva player, and hopefully our scouts were right on it. It's not like any prospect really owned this draft year.

 

[norrisnick]

The 'hardest to play against' Wings of the last 20 years were Nick, Sergei, Pavel and Z. Yes, I would like more of that.

 

[jkutswings]

These guys with no meaningful NHL minutes... I have no reason to believe could be special.

But these other guys... who also have no meaningful NHL minutes, those guys will certainly be special!

I never said anybody is guarantee. Just that I liked some choices a lot better than others.

If the Wings HAD drafted Vilardi or Liljegren, you'd be ripping that pick too. If not now, then a few years from now when they're not superstars. Vilardi would be "Oh, this dude can't skate for **** or Liljegren "Man, we really should have known this guy was another Smith or Kindl who has all the tools but no toolbox".

Again, no. They all have warts. But if all three of Rasmussen, Vilardi, and Liljgren hit their potential, Rasmussen is the skill set I value the least of the three, and by a wide margin. And I said as much on multiple occasions, before the draft ever started.

I just think it's overly pessimistic and reeks of beating a dead horse with another dead horse to complain about draft picks and whine and moan about how barren our cupboard is when it is simply impossible to know what they have in Svech and Hronek and Cholowski and the 2017 class as most haven't set foot in pro hockey for very long at all.

You're taking all of the most negative points of all the picks and highlight them and downplaying the weaknesses of those players that the Wings skipped over.

I'm not saying I would've picked other players (except for the Rasmussen pick, as noted above). I'm saying that it's premature to say our scouts are doing a great job, because nobody has cemented themselves as a steal of a pick yet. Actually, it's premature to even say they're doing a good job, for exactly the reasons you gave: they're almost all still question marks.

 

[joe89]

The 'hardest to play against' Wings of the last 20 years were Nick, Sergei, Pavel and Z. Yes, I would like more of that.

Definitely. Our last cup team had tons of skill + a lot of heart. That's what makes you hard to play against. Zetterberg is still the guy who is the hardest to play against on our team.

Guys who were hard to play against these playoffs? Viktor Arvidsson, 5'9". Jake Guentzel, 5'10". Because they have skill and compete like hell.

So point being, draft guys with the right mindset sure. But don't stare yourself blind at the height sheet.

 

[Retire91]

that was the difficulty of playing against possession hockey though, I think the point of this thread is are the wings trying to get bigger meaner. Like that brand of hard to play against.

 

[Ezekial]

If that strategy actually manifests itself, I'll be looking for a Team B to follow. Because not only will it not work, but it'll be another several years of lousy hockey to watch.

What happened to Tampa?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I never said anybody is guarantee. Just that I liked some choices a lot better than others.



Again, no. They all have warts. But if all three of Rasmussen, Vilardi, and Liljgren hit their potential, Rasmussen is the skill set I value the least of the three, and by a wide margin. And I said as much on multiple occasions, before the draft ever started.



I'm not saying I would've picked other players (except for the Rasmussen pick, as noted above). I'm saying that it's premature to say our scouts are doing a great job, because nobody has cemented themselves as a steal of a pick yet. Actually, it's premature to even say they're doing a good job, for exactly the reasons you gave: they're almost all still question marks.

Right, and it's also premature to fry them for the last couple years of picks. The Wings are bad now because their drafting from 05-12 was really really weak outside of a couple guys who are solid complementary guys and Larkin and Mantha aren't a Matthews, Marner, etc. level of player that can hide terrible drafting for a while.

The Wings drafting has been passable to pretty good since the Mantha draft. But with Hall of Famers hanging it up and getting old, they needed it to be great.

 

[SirloinUB]

Definitely. Our last cup team had tons of skill + a lot of heart. That's what makes you hard to play against. Zetterberg is still the guy who is the hardest to play against on our team.

Guys who were hard to play against these playoffs? Viktor Arvidsson, 5'9". Jake Guentzel, 5'10". Because they have skill and compete like hell.

So point being, draft guys with the right mindset sure. But don't stare yourself blind at the height sheet.

Meanwhile half the forum is having a meltdown because Holland drafted a guy with character (and skill)

 

[Shoalzie]

So this team was at the forefront of puck possession and clowning big lumbering teams...ie--the '97 finals against the big bad Flyers. And we're watching teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh win with speed and puck possession...so let's build a big slow team?

Well, I'm sure they aren't talking about slow because you can't have a team that isn't mobile in today's game. What I do want to see is a big mobile defense. Getting shutdown by Tampa's big defense the previous two seasons...I want the big lanky defensemen with the long reach taking up as much space as possible.

As far as being "hard to play against"...to me, that's all about effort and commitment to your system. You don't need a 4th line where all three guys have 200+ hits a year. You want guys that do their jobs effectively. Scorers score goals. Defensive specialists lock down the other team's top guys. And role players fill their niche.

I mention the Hawks and Pens...the Kings won with playing a bigger brand of hockey but they eventually became too slow for this newer style of speed and skill. I think you can have size up front but you want guys that can skate and use their size effectively.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

No one said he's not skilled, but one poster suggested that we're drafting size and ignoring skill, when in reality it's not the case at all. Even this year, despite Rasmussen's big size, it does not mean he comes with no skills. This is a potential powerfoward folks, his upside is exciting.

I believe when people say he has no skills they mean he has no skills (or very limited) in creating his own offense. He is not a play driver. He is a very, VERY good garbage goal scorer with a mean streak, size, and two way play though.

I'm disappointed we skipped on some guys we were high on, but we just drafted a Nick Bjugstad clone (possibly better), not a forward Hal Gill

 

[Henkka]

So this team was at the forefront of puck possession and clowning big lumbering teams...ie--the '97 finals against the big bad Flyers. And we're watching teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh win with speed and puck possession...so let's build a big slow team?

Well, I'm sure they aren't talking about slow because you can't have a team that isn't mobile in today's game. What I do want to see is a big mobile defense. Getting shutdown by Tampa's big defense the previous two seasons...I want the big lanky defensemen with the long reach taking up as much space as possible.

As far as being "hard to play against"...to me, that's all about effort and commitment to your system. You don't need a 4th line where all three guys have 200+ hits a year. You want guys that do their jobs effectively. Scorers score goals. Defensive specialists lock down the other team's top guys. And role players fill their niche.

I mention the Hawks and Pens...the Kings won with playing a bigger brand of hockey but they eventually became too slow for this newer style of speed and skill. I think you can have size up front but you want guys that can skate and use their size effectively.

Since when we started drafting slow players? Almost all drated were mentioned big guys but good skaters. Then Larkin and AA are one of the fastest in the league from the young core.

Open your eyes.

 

[Run the Jewels]

No one said he's not skilled, but one poster suggested that we're drafting size and ignoring skill, when in reality it's not the case at all. Even this year, despite Rasmussen's big size, it does not mean he comes with no skills. This is a potential powerfoward folks, his upside is exciting.

The Wings absolutely passed on a guy with a higher ceiling and drafted the guy with the higher floor. So says a guy who is involved in scouting Western Canada.

Here's the money quote from the link above:

With Vilardi on the board, they passed the player the higher ceiling and went with a player who has a higher floor. It's no secret some teams still emphasize size down the middle, and while important, top tier skill and vision is also needed to excel in a top 6 NHL roll. For me, Rasmussen isn't devoid of talent but he also is a player who I question in regards to his skill level and hockey sense. To be that coveted top 6 guys, I didn't see enough to check off all the boxes which are generally givens in elite prospects. Rasmussen is an NHL player, but watching a polarizing player like him this year has me more convinced that he has an upside more fit for a 3rd line than your driving force at even strength.

His upside really isn't exciting. The scout says you need to bury him in the minors and bring him along very slowly and maybe at some point he'll develop and be a pleasant surprise.

With the #9 OA pick I just don't see how that moves the needle for anyone. Yes, it was a bad draft but at least with a guy like Vilardi he has a ceiling where he could become a scoring line pivot. It sounds like the odds of Rasmussen hitting that level are pretty long.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

With the #9 OA pick I just don't see how that moves the needle for anyone. Yes, it was a bad draft but at least with a guy like Vilardi he has a ceiling where he could become a scoring line pivot. It sounds like the odds of Rasmussen hitting that level are pretty long.

I personally think Rasumussen can be a legit top 6 player and will hit 25+ goals several times.

The only problem is, I doubt it will be at center, and will have to be with a good team. Glen Murray

 

[Pavels Dog]

The Wings absolutely passed on a guy with a higher ceiling and drafted the guy with the higher floor. So says a guy who is involved in scouting Western Canada.

Here's the money quote from the link above:



His upside really isn't exciting. The scout says you need to bury him in the minors and bring him along very slowly and maybe at some point he'll develop and be a pleasant surprise.

With the #9 OA pick I just don't see how that moves the needle for anyone. Yes, it was a bad draft but at least with a guy like Vilardi he has a ceiling where he could become a scoring line pivot. It sounds like the odds of Rasmussen hitting that level are pretty long.

If Vilardi's such an amazing prospect, why did 10 teams pass on him?

I don't know who that guy in the interview is, but unless his track record of being right is something special I don't know why his opinion would matter more than the opinion of the Wings scouting staff. This is our first top 10 pick in ages, I kinda feel like we should give our scouts the benefit of the doubt here. Not like our previous highest picks such as Larkin/Mantha/Svech are looking terrible.

 

[Henkka]

Scout opinios will differ. I can pick the opposite comments about Rasmussen and Vilardi.

Just get over it. Whining doesn't change the pick. Pretty much I'm sure same whining would be going on here if Wright would have picked Vilardi. Such a bad skater! Should have picked Tippet ot Liljegren! Kenny should retire!

Just automatic negativity going on for anything our orgazation will make.

More interesting would be the discussion how we build the team with Rasmussen in the mix. He is our guy now.

 

[Heaton]

More interesting would be the discussion how we build the team with Rasmussen in the mix. He is our guy now.

Not sure Rasmussen changes much. Still need a young defenseman to emerge and a bunch of other things.

Odds are Rasmussen won't be in the NHL for a few years, so we have a few more top picks to get.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If Vilardi's such an amazing prospect, why did 10 teams pass on him?

I don't know who that guy in the interview is, but unless his track record of being right is something special I don't know why his opinion would matter more than the opinion of the Wings scouting staff. This is our first top 10 pick in ages, I kinda feel like we should give our scouts the benefit of the doubt here. Not like our previous highest picks such as Larkin/Mantha/Svech are looking terrible.

LOL, everyone has said Rasmussen was a stretch at 9. Our scouts heard from other teams that Lindstrom was a good pick. Absolutely no one had anything good to say about taking Rasmussen that high, mostly just happy to have the Wings take a guy rated in the 20s at #9.

Yet the same people continue to believe the Red Wings scouts are the smartest guys in the room.

 

[Dotter]

What makes you think Rasmussen has no skills?

This is what I would like know.