Should Holland be replaced as GM? (and moved to front office)

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RabidBadger

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The worst years I saw watching the Stars is when they were missing the playoffs but picking around 10th every year. It was all the non-excitement of no playoffs, combined with all the non-excitement of getting so-so prospects in the draft and not really progressing year to year.

Until the Seguin and Spezza shake-up trades, that team was painful to watch and stay invested in regularly. I'm hoping and praying it doesn't happen to the Wings.

Therein lies the rub; Dallas actually made trades to bolster the roster. Your assessment above of the Stuart and mecenary players Holland has traded for hits the nail on the head and puts in to perspective how bleak the situation has been. The only recent laudable deals have been subtraction trades, ie, Kindl and Dats. Oy.

A GM hybrid of Dave Dombrowski and Holland would be perfect. Dealin' Dave could swing a blockbuster deal but didn't draft for squat (I know he picked JV), we all know Holland is the flipside of that coin.
 

Pavels Dog

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But if you believe so strongly in this management group (most people who feel this way think that Holland can pull off rebuilding on the fly, which takes a lot of management ability), then why can't they rebuild successfully? Is it just impossible to rebuild and not be a total trainwreck for years and years, even with one of the best front offices in the NHL? Like if Holland can turn his late round draft picks into great players, surely he can turn early round draft picks into great players, too. And he might even have more picks, so he could do it more often. Wouldn't that result in a better team, faster?
Problem is getting those early round draft picks. We've been drafting a bit too well to easily get into the top 10 of the draft. At this point I think we're closer to making a big step forward instead of becoming terrible. But if you want great draft picks, just hope for everything to go wrong this season and injuries to pile up and young players to underperform. If we're way out of a playoff spot in march I'm sure Holland would sell.
 

Big Poppa Puck

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When is the last time Holland made a good trade...like seriously the Brad Stuart trade?

That's the one. Otherwise all he's done is a handful of deadline rentals and snagging Quincey back.

As for those deadline deals:

The Legwand deal was bad, but probably necessary to make the playoffs that year.

I think we all liked the Zidlicky deal at the time, and he was good...until the playoffs.

I don't think people hated the Erik Cole deal, other than Janmark fans, but I don't think people loved it either. And it was looking decent at worst until his injury.
 
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Henkka

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Problem is getting those early round draft picks. We've been drafting a bit too well to easily get into the top 10 of the draft. At this point I think we're closer to making a big step forward instead of becoming terrible. But if you want great draft picks, just hope for everything to go wrong this season and injuries to pile up and young players to underperform. If we're way out of a playoff spot in march I'm sure Holland would sell.

Yeah, I see our "re-tooling on the fly" working this way. Always build for win, but at some point the bad season will hit for sure. League has that much parity.

Bad season comes, make a minor firesale, draft one key piece high and jump back on the race.

Have a good season again. That's the program I like most.

I don't like to see a losing team for +6 extra years.

***

If we are gonna have a good season at season 2016-17, it's a good thing. Because, then our youngsters have taken the torch.

This is not anyhow a veteran leading team anymore. Datsyuk gone, Kronner and Zeta has health issues. For sure, next generation have to carry us.

If that won't happen, we suck, lose and draft high. Mini rebuild.
 

Pavels Dog

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Yeah, I see our "re-tooling on the fly" working this way. Always build for win, but at some point the bad season will hit for sure. League has that much parity.

Bad season comes, make a minor firesale, draft one key piece high and jump back on the race.

Have a good season again. That's the program I like most.

I don't like to see a losing team for +6 extra years.

***

If we are gonna have a good season at season 2016-17, it's a good thing. Because, then our youngsters have taken the torch.

This is not anyhow a veteran leading team anymore. Datsyuk gone, Kronner and Zeta has health issues. For sure, next generation have to carry us.

If that won't happen, we suck, lose and draft high. Mini rebuild.
No doubt that a bad season could be a blessing in disguise. But I personally would rather stay optimistic and think some of our kids could take a step forward and prove themselves. I think it's going to be one of the more interesting seasons in a long time. We'll sink or swim based on what a lot of our young players do.
 

njx9

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We'll sink or swim based on what a lot of our young players do.

That's hilarious. Unless by 'a lot' you mean 'Larkin and Mrazek, while the Jurco and Pulk sit in the press box', or you're redefining 'young'. Or you're talking about GR.

I don't understand the cognitive dissonance required to believe that our young players will not only get a good chance, but will be the keys to success, when we've signed so many forwards to contracts that can't be moved.

This is not anyhow a veteran leading team anymore. Datsyuk gone, Kronner and Zeta has health issues. For sure, next generation have to carry us.

Uh, what? This is still one of the 2 (if I remember the post right) oldest teams in the league. This is still a team with Z and Kronner easily leading in ice time, despite the wheels having fallen off so badly that you might as well be driving a boat.

But hey, I guess Larkin and Mrazek got some ice time last year, so... youth movement. Or something.
 

RedMachine87

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That's hilarious. Unless by 'a lot' you mean 'Larkin and Mrazek, while the Jurco and Pulk sit in the press box', or you're redefining 'young'. Or you're talking about GR.

I don't understand the cognitive dissonance required to believe that our young players will not only get a good chance, but will be the keys to success, when we've signed so many forwards to contracts that can't be moved.



Uh, what? This is still one of the 2 (if I remember the post right) oldest teams in the league. This is still a team with Z and Kronner easily leading in ice time, despite the wheels having fallen off so badly that you might as well be driving a boat.

But hey, I guess Larkin and Mrazek got some ice time last year, so... youth movement. Or something.

I agree that we are not seeing the youth take the reigns like it should be. If that were the case, we'd have something like:

Abby Larkin Tatar
Nyquist Nielson Mantha
Zettaberg AA Sheahan
Bertuzzi Glen Helm / Nosek

Instead we get more bandaids from Holland...

Is there a source for the wings being the second oldest team in the league?
 

Frk It

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I agree that we are not seeing the youth take the reigns like it should be. If that were the case, we'd have something like:

Abby Larkin Tatar
Nyquist Nielson Mantha
Zettaberg AA Sheahan
Bertuzzi Glen Helm / Nosek

Instead we get more bandaids from Holland...

Is there a source for the wings being the second oldest team in the league?

Not too familiar with this site, but guessing it's this: http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams

Realizing it includes Ben Street (29) who will be in the AHL, and still showing Richards (36) on the team. So if that is what was used, not sure how accurate it is.
 

njx9

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If we ignore the guys like Street, Franzen, Quincey and Richards, the average age is in the 28s. I don't feel like going through every team to see who should be ex/in-cluded, but that's still very much a 'veteran led' team.

But fair point that 2nd oldest may not be entirely accurate.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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If we ignore the guys like Street, Franzen, Quincey and Richards, the average age is in the 28s. I don't feel like going through every team to see who should be ex/in-cluded, but that's still very much a 'veteran led' team.

But fair point that 2nd oldest may not be entirely accurate.

If you just remove Street, Franzen, Richards, Quincey we go from 2nd oldest to 13th youngest. Also I didn't add XO or AA, who at least one of should be on the team.

Now I imagine you could do this with a lot of teams though, to be fair.
 

njx9

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If you just remove Street, Franzen, Richards, Quincey we go from 2nd oldest to 13th youngest. Also I didn't add XO or AA, who at least one of should be on the team.

Now I imagine you could do this with a lot of teams though, to be fair.

So, even assuming no other team has a guy on their roster who ought to be removed (NJD has Savard, for instance, let alone whether or not buy-outs are counting), the Wings are middle of the road, in terms of age, and the players likely to log the most ice time are decidedly not younger players.

I know I'm not really arguing with you, but I think it's still quite clear that the Wings aren't led by their younger players in any way, shape or form.
 

DanZ

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So, even assuming no other team has a guy on their roster who ought to be removed (NJD has Savard, for instance, let alone whether or not buy-outs are counting), the Wings are middle of the road, in terms of age, and the players likely to log the most ice time are decidedly not younger players.

I know I'm not really arguing with you, but I think it's still quite clear that the Wings aren't led by their younger players in any way, shape or form.

Except that's wrong. Larkin and Mrazek are arguably our two best players.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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So, even assuming no other team has a guy on their roster who ought to be removed (NJD has Savard, for instance, let alone whether or not buy-outs are counting), the Wings are middle of the road, in terms of age, and the players likely to log the most ice time are decidedly not younger players.

I know I'm not really arguing with you, but I think it's still quite clear that the Wings aren't led by their younger players in any way, shape or form.

Well, they need to be. It's good to hear that Larkin is being talked about as starting the season as the #1 center.

Does that also mean they are going to try and conserve Zetterberg? I mean, I doubt it, but they are going to lean more on Larkin and that's a start.

Dekeyser should get big minutes at ES on defense. Green and Kronwall probably still will too, though.

Mrazek hopefully is more consistent and starts majority of the year in net.
 
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njx9

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Except that's wrong. Larkin and Mrazek are arguably our two best players.

I don't know what that has to do with my statement. Z was certainly not our best forward last year, but he pretty clearly led the team as a C and in ice time. Kronwall is no longer even a top two D on our team, but he's pretty inarguably the leader on defense with an A and in ice time. Guys like Abbie are pretty clear emotional leaders on the team. Even guys like Nyquist will be 27 by the time the season starts. That's not ancient, but it's hardly 'youth'.

So yes, Larkin is a pretty good player. He and Mrazek do not, in any way whatsoever, suggest the team is led by its youth, and that's without even touching the fact that its youth is largely stuck in GR behind guys like Helm and Vanek.

Well, they need to be.

Couldn't agree more.
 

SirloinUB

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Aug 20, 2010
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I know we have made a number of KH related polls so I dug out some statistics for my own curiosity and thought id share. Some of the Polls had too many options (Do you still support KH and MB for example) (others had a silly premise ie. the petition) but I still thought it was interesting to see how the "popular opinion" has evolved over the years.

  • Should Holland be replaced as GM? - July 2016: 82% Yes
  • Would you sign a petition to replace Ken Holland? - April 2016: 42% voted yes. As I recall many poster simply thought the petition idea was a waste of time.
  • You get to choose and you can only choose one - October 2014 - 80% voted to keep Babcock over Holland
  • Is it time for Holland to step down? - July 2014: 72% Yes
  • Fire Holland? - March 2014: 60% yes
  • Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock? - October 2013: 41% supported Holland, however this poll was convoluted with 5 or 6 options
  • If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland? - April 2013: 61% yes
  • Does Ken Holland get too much credit? - January 2013 - 32% voted yes

Maybe I missed it but I could not find a 2015 Poll.
 

Bench

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Aug 14, 2011
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I know we have made a number of KH related polls so I dug out some statistics for my own curiosity and thought id share. Some of the Polls had too many options (Do you still support KH and MB for example) (others had a silly premise ie. the petition) but I still thought it was interesting to see how the "popular opinion" has evolved over the years.

  • Should Holland be replaced as GM? - July 2016: 82% Yes
  • Would you sign a petition to replace Ken Holland? - April 2016: 42% voted yes. As I recall many poster simply thought the petition idea was a waste of time.
  • You get to choose and you can only choose one - October 2014 - 80% voted to keep Babcock over Holland
  • Is it time for Holland to step down? - July 2014: 72% Yes
  • Fire Holland? - March 2014: 60% yes
  • Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock? - October 2013: 41% supported Holland, however this poll was convoluted with 5 or 6 options
  • If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland? - April 2013: 61% yes
  • Does Ken Holland get too much credit? - January 2013 - 32% voted yes

Maybe I missed it but I could not find a 2015 Poll.

Thanks for taking the time to dig through that. It looks like there's certainly been a negative shift going Holland's direction. When I first started haunting this board in 2011, things were much more optimistic about him. And rightfully so. Only 2 years removed from back-to-back Cup finals and a team that was still in the top 5 of the league.

As results slide, and there appears to be no proactive fixes in sight, so does approval. If Holland swings a trade for a blueliner, another Larkin-esque draft pick emerges, and so on... approval will go right back up. And really that's my big hope, that he's still got some moves left, because I know he won't be replaced until he voluntarily retires from the job.
 

Pavels Dog

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That's hilarious. Unless by 'a lot' you mean 'Larkin and Mrazek, while the Jurco and Pulk sit in the press box', or you're redefining 'young'. Or you're talking about GR.

I don't understand the cognitive dissonance required to believe that our young players will not only get a good chance, but will be the keys to success, when we've signed so many forwards to contracts that can't be moved.
Dekeyser will be our #1 in at least ES time, just like this past season. Probably gets even more TOI. XO/Sproul/Russo will get a chance, Marchenko will get a bigger role. Word is the plan is to have Larkin as #1C. Hopefully Nyquist and Tatar get more minutes. AA and Mantha will get more opportunity, probably some other kids too.
Mrazek is maybe our most important player.

Z, Kronner and Howard will be in secondary roles most likely.

Sure guys like Nielsen, Vanek, Helm etc will be important but our younger guys are going to be huge.
 

njx9

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Dekeyser will be our #1 in at least ES time, just like this past season. Probably gets even more TOI. XO/Sproul/Russo will get a chance, Marchenko will get a bigger role. Word is the plan is to have Larkin as #1C. Hopefully Nyquist and Tatar get more minutes. AA and Mantha will get more opportunity, probably some other kids too.
Mrazek is maybe our most important player.

Z, Kronner and Howard will be in secondary roles most likely.

Sure guys like Nielsen, Vanek, Helm etc will be important but our younger guys are going to be huge.

You're a massive optimist, and I don't think 90% of what you've said here will happen. Further, I'd ask for any indication that XO, Sproul or Russo will get an actual shot on defense, that Larkin will play C at all, let alone 1C, and that either AA or Mantha will get more than 10 minutes a game, let alone any other kids. It's great that DDK led in a single TOI stat, though. I'm sure that totally changes the fact that Kronner was still on the ice ~22 minutes a game. If only PP and PK time actually counted...

It's like you have no idea what the current contract situation is, or that you refuse to believe that Holland actually filled up the top of the roster already. Or like you think Blash rode an obviously declining Z and Kronner last year just for kicks.
 

Red Stanley

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Here's what I don't quite get: we have players with certain valuable skills that are marginalized, because they severely lack in other departments. Let's take Helm for example. He has killer speed and is a decent checker. If he had a decent shot and puck handling, he'd be so much more valuable and not nearly as many would be upset with him being brought back.

Now, my question is why can't players like him work in the off season on the specific skill sets they're missing/lacking? I know for a fact, having played sports, that it is definitely possible to improve certain aspects of your game (stick handling and shot accuracy/power included) if you work on them. Howard used to be absolutely hopeless handling the puck before last season. He obviously worked on it pretty hard and it showed. Why can't players like Helm and Abby work on their puck handling/shot and our D in general on passing? Can our coaching/training staff not require them to do so?
 

Bench

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Aug 14, 2011
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Here's what I don't quite get: we have players with certain valuable skills that are marginalized, because they severely lack in other departments. Let's take Helm for example. He has killer speed and is a decent checker. If he had a decent shot and puck handling, he'd be so much more valuable and not nearly as many would be upset with him being brought back.

Now, my question is why can't players like him work in the off season on the specific skill sets they're missing/lacking? I know for a fact, having played sports, that it is definitely possible to improve certain aspects of your game (stick handling and shot accuracy/power included) if you work on them. Howard used to be absolutely hopeless handling the puck before last season. He obviously worked on it pretty hard and it showed. Why can't players like Helm and Abby work on their puck handling/shot and our D in general on passing? Can our coaching/training staff not require them to do so?

I think the simple answer is these guys are already world class puck handlers. Even Darren Helm. I know it doesn't look like it, but if you put him into a lower environment he'd look like Datsyuk out there. I've seen this before when a former AHL grinder tools around the local ice rink and looks like the Magic Man himself.

So usually the big disparity in skill you notice on the NHL level is very relative. It's fractional outside of that environment. It's why so few players are really elite. Sure, they could do stickhandling drills all day, but their personal potential is nearly maxed.

Same reason an average quarterback can't throw passes all summer and come back looking like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. You either have the arm or you don't. You might be good enough to get to the big game, but you've hit the ceiling. You can't train hard to elite.

Improvements are usually most obtainable when you're at a lower skill level. Then there's a plateau. I used to be more involved in tennis and this was pretty common. Very large surges in gains and wins, but then a leveling off period. And that's a very technical sport where players do nothing but practice 1 shot over and over and over. Even then getting a serve to the "next level" like a Federer is so difficult for a pro.

It's possible to improve, though, you're right. And why we don't hear more focus on that sort of thing? I'm not sure. I think the simple answer is that it's harder than it sounds to pull off. But you're also not wrong maybe hockey lags behind the precision training we see in golf and tennis to hone individual skillsets?
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Here's what I don't quite get: we have players with certain valuable skills that are marginalized, because they severely lack in other departments. Let's take Helm for example. He has killer speed and is a decent checker. If he had a decent shot and puck handling, he'd be so much more valuable and not nearly as many would be upset with him being brought back.

Now, my question is why can't players like him work in the off season on the specific skill sets they're missing/lacking? I know for a fact, having played sports, that it is definitely possible to improve certain aspects of your game (stick handling and shot accuracy/power included) if you work on them. Howard used to be absolutely hopeless handling the puck before last season. He obviously worked on it pretty hard and it showed. Why can't players like Helm and Abby work on their puck handling/shot and our D in general on passing? Can our coaching/training staff not require them to do so?

Read this book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1617...tDescription_secondary_view_div_1468537179716
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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OK sure, if you want to get all technical like a nerd. I think my off the cuff response is as good as any bestselling book. :cry:

I mean, it really comes down to nature vs nurture in my opinion.

Everyone has different natural limitations, and if we all spent 10,000 hours shooting a puck we are going to get hugely varying results.

It's not just as easy as work on 'Skill X' over the offseason and you will just continuously keep improving it. When you are younger, definitely.

But these guys have already logged 10s of thousands of hours of practicing in structured environments and individually on their skills. Helm can't just spend the summer shooting pucks in his basement and come out next year sniping goalies.
 
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